GWR battery train procurement suggestions & predictions

[WarrenTManager]

Couple all the 442s together and let the people walk through? This thread has been missing a suggestion for reusing 442s.

Joking aside. This is Vivarails bag. A 456 would need a toilet reinstating and there isn't much room I'd suggest for a decent battery pack on the DTS vehicle. For a year, its too big a loss leader, I would imagine.

 

[RobShipway]

I can see five options here:

Vivarail - Battery class 230
Alstom Class 600 (Reduced to three cars)
Stadler Citylink (*)
Alstom Coradia iLint - These units can be BEMU. They take 45 minutes to recharge the batteries which then have a distance of 200KM. (*)
Hitachi AT200 - BEMU version. (*)

The three with the (*) I think are the most logical solutions, as they are available off the shelf and can also work off OHLE if required. The class 600 is due to be available until 2024, so that rules that out and class 230 does not have the ability to work with a pantograph.

The only other thought, would be to convert class 365 units to be three car units and add batteries to them, but again like the class 600 would need to be tested before use.

 

[365 Networker]

The only other thought, would be to convert class 365 units to be three car units and add batteries to them

That’s unlikely as there are key components spread throughout the cars of the 365.
However, there are going to be 7 spare 323s as northern is not taking them (unless they are staying with WMR), so perhaps batteries can be fitted to to those.

 

[edwin_m]

I think it was fairly predictable that battery EMUs might be used at some point. So I'm sticking with it being a cheap-out.

West Ealing was electrified in the early 1990s for Heathrow Express, at which time battery trains weren't on anyone's radar. I think the bay was added or at least modified for Crossrail though. It seems to be just long enough for a 4-car EMU, but no such units were using the route at the time Crossrail was being developed. Actually allowing an electric train to access it would also require electrification of the branch for at least a train length beyond the protecting signal, which would include a level crossing.

Desperately clawing for any possible bidders that aren't Vivarail (not that I dislike their product) - are there any tram builders with a suitable high floor product?

Besides previous suggestions, the Revolution VLR might be produced in a battery-only version. Their current proposal of a diesel hybrid is perhaps looking a bit behind the curve.
Vehicle - Revolution VLR | Design and Features of Revolution VLR

• Efficient hybrid diesel-electric powertrain
• Zero-emissions operation in stations, also reducing noise levels
• Transferring state of the art automotive engine technology to a rail environment
• Lithium titanate battery packs for performance, safety and durability

 

[JonathanH]

It seems to be just long enough for a 4-car EMU, but no such units were using the route at the time Crossrail was being developed.

Added for Crossrail to allow Greenford trains not to run to Paddington. West Ealing bay used to accommodate two 2-car Turbos when the Chiltern service used to run there and sit inside of a GWR 165 - see

at 5 minutes.

 

[RobShipway]

That’s unlikely as there are key components spread throughout the cars of the 365.
However, there are going to be 7 spare 323s as northern is not taking them (unless they are staying with WMR), so perhaps batteries can be fitted to to those.

True, unless the testing of the class 600 units is done aka in a similar style to when class 230's where first introduced from Leamington Spa with using passengers as Guinea Pigs.

You can find the Procurement tender notice here https://procurement.gwr.com/tenders...ern-railway-fast-charging-battery-train-trial.

I have been reading the article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-55319335 about long distance inter-city trains with GWR being battery powered coming into stations between London and Penzance.

That got me thinking, who has a depot not far away from West Ealing? Who joined forces with Hyperrdrive in July 2020 to develop battery train technology and created a battery hub in the North East of England?

 

[Domh245]

I can see five options here:

Vivarail - Battery class 230
Alstom Class 600 (Reduced to three cars)
Stadler Citylink (*)
Alstom Coradia iLint - These units can be BEMU. They take 45 minutes to recharge the batteries which then have a distance of 200KM. (*)
Hitachi AT200 - BEMU version. (*)

The three with the (*) I think are the most logical solutions, as they are available off the shelf and can also work off OHLE if required. The class 600 is due to be available until 2024, so that rules that out and class 230 does not have the ability to work with a pantograph.

The only other thought, would be to convert class 365 units to be three car units and add batteries to them, but again like the class 600 would need to be tested before use.

Given that the trial starts in 10 months (April 2022) anything that's not already being built is effectively disqualified, to give time for testing & certification. That rules out all bar the 230 and 600*, but seeing as there's not a battery 600, and there isn't a requirement for anything overhead - merely "fast charging" that does rather limit the choices.

*installation & certification of batteries to a 321 should be achievable within 10 months

 

[RobShipway]

Given that the trial starts in 10 months (April 2022) anything that's not already being built is effectively disqualified, to give time for testing & certification. That rules out all bar the 230 and 600*, but seeing as there's not a battery 600, and there isn't a requirement for anything overhead - merely "fast charging" that does rather limit the choices.

*installation & certification of batteries to a 321 should be achievable within 10 months

I think it depends on what the capacity is that any of the manufacturers have got on their production lines and how quick they can take that order to provide a train. Don't forget that the order for the Sheffield Supertram was placed in 2013, with the first trains built in 2014. I believe from memory that the first class 399 was built within 10 months of the order being placed? For the class 385, the order was taken in October 2014, with the first train built in 2015. yes, these trains did not enter service until 2018, but that was after testing being completed, Here, it is a case of getting the train built if required and then testing.

The above having been said, I have no doubt that the procurement process may take a few months which then points as you say to either the 230 or 600 as a build time then of 6 - 7 months for a new build would be unlikely. Shame.

 

[Domh245]

I think it depends on what the capacity is that any of the manufacturers have got on their production lines and how quick they can take that order to provide a train. Don't forget that the order for the Sheffield Supertram was placed in 2013, with the first trains built in 2014. I believe from memory that the first class 399 was built within 10 months of the order being placed? For the class 385, the order was taken in October 2014, with the first train built in 2015. yes, these trains did not enter service until 2018, but that was after testing being completed, Here, it is a case of getting the train built if required and then testing.

The above having been said, I have no doubt that the procurement process may take a few months which then points as you say to either the 230 or 600 as a build time then of 6 - 7 months for a new build would be unlikely. Shame.

The supertrams were an existing product and could start construction as soon as materials were available (simplified - but point being not massive amounts of design work required) and even then it was a solid 18 months between order placed and first delivery. "order to build" isn't the relevant metric here, it's "order to entry into service" - my reading of the tender is that come 4/4/2022 (the 1st of April being a Friday next year) they want a BEMU operating in service on the branch to test feasibility. That means unit delivered, certified & approved by ORR/NR, driver training completed, etc - trying to use the first few months of the supposed trial period to work through fault free running won't be what GWR are after, I'd think.

Frankly even the 600 would be a struggle, having to first redesign for full BEMU, but then source materials (global supply chains at the moment will not help there) and go through the rest of the process in 10 months. As it is they're targeting 2024 for first unit converted and in service.

 

[RobShipway]

The supertrams were an existing product and could start construction as soon as materials were available (simplified - but point being not massive amounts of design work required) and even then it was a solid 18 months between order placed and first delivery. "order to build" isn't the relevant metric here, it's "order to entry into service" - my reading of the tender is that come 4/4/2022 (the 1st of April being a Friday next year) they want a BEMU operating in service on the branch to test feasibility. That means unit delivered, certified & approved by ORR/NR, driver training completed, etc - trying to use the first few months of the supposed trial period to work through fault free running won't be what GWR are after, I'd think.

Frankly even the 600 would be a struggle, having to first redesign for full BEMU, but then source materials (global supply chains at the moment will not help there) and go through the rest of the process in 10 months. As it is they're targeting 2024 for first unit converted and in service.

But I doubt it will be Vivarail either as they have still got to complete the work on the class 230 units being delivered to TFW, unless they use 230002 which is already a pre - built BEMU unit. The interior would need to be converted to GWR standards, but that should not take long. But the refresh would need to take place after work on building the class 230 units for TFW has completed.

 

[Dstock7080]

But I doubt it will be Vivarail either as they have still got to complete the work on the class 230 units being delivered to TFW, unless they use 230002 which is already a pre - built BEMU unit. The interior would need to be converted to GWR standards, but that should not take long. But the refresh would need to take place after work on building the class 230 units for TFW has completed.

will need to get 230002 back from the USA rather smartly then.

 

[coppercapped]

West Ealing was electrified in the early 1990s for Heathrow Express, at which time battery trains weren't on anyone's radar. I think the bay was added or at least modified for Crossrail though. It seems to be just long enough for a 4-car EMU, but no such units were using the route at the time Crossrail was being developed. Actually allowing an electric train to access it would also require electrification of the branch for at least a train length beyond the protecting signal, which would include a level crossing.

In days of yore™ the Up Relief platform at West Ealing was on the eastern side of the Argyle Road overbridge and the space where the current Up Relief platform is now was used for the Milk Siding. This was where the milk tanks were emptied after their run up to London from the West Country and, IIRC, from South Wales — they ran past the overbridge on the Up Relief and then set back into the siding.

The platform was rebuilt west of the bridge in the time of, I think, Network SouthEast. If there was a bay at this time it was not often used as the Greenford trains ran through to either Ealing Broadway or Paddington: it was built or upgraded when it came clear that the increase in train frequency due to Crossrail would mean that the Greenfords would clash with the Crossrail, freight and GWR outer-suburban trains on the Reliefs.

It never had a direct connection to the Reliefs as there was no traffic need - so any electrification in the 1990s would have been wasted for some 30 years. And we don't want waste, do we?

 

[RobShipway]

will need to get 230002 back from the USA rather smartly then.

Is it not due back before the end of the year?

 

[Bob Price]

I believe they have sold it to the US. 001 is being converted to batteries as a replacement demo unit so I would suggest this tender may be a formality. The rapid charge solution and the fact they have already tested one would put them in the driving seat.

 

[A0]

The Stadler Citylink as specced for TfW would provided you could provide the charging at the Greenford end. A short length of 750VDC OHLE would probably do it.

I'm not sure anyone's going to sign up to a "short length of 750v DC OHLE" in general or more specifically on the Greenford branch. Greenford is a TFL stationand West Ealing's got 25kv OHLE in close proximity. I'm sure @Bald Rick and others would love to see a few metres of non-standard OHLE on the network......

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure anyone's going to sign up to a "short length of 750v DC OHLE" in general or more specifically on the Greenford branch. Greenford is a TFL stationand West Ealing's got 25kv OHLE in close proximity. I'm sure @Bald Rick and others would love to see a few metres of non-standard OHLE on the network......

How's it different to any other kind of fast charging facility, which the specification has installed at Greenford? Surely it won't be a plug-in cable?

 

[LWB]

Deleted: Fat finger failure. Sorry

 

[zwk500]

How's it different to any other kind of fast charging facility, which the specification has installed at Greenford? Surely it won't be a plug-in cable?

It might be this: https://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-lau...ain-with-a-range-of-60-miles-between-charges/

Short version: Two lengths of rail on insulators in LU 4-rail configuration, Train has carbon ceramic shoes for power transfer. Rapid charge station is a battery pack at trackside that trickle charges from grid to allow it to dump the energy into the train's batteries without causing a local voltage drop.

 

[Bald Rick]

How's it different to any other kind of fast charging facility,

750v isn’t very fast charging for the type of current you can get through an OLE / Pantograph interface.

 

[JN114]

The platform was rebuilt west of the bridge in the time of, I think, Network SouthEast. If there was a bay at this time it was not often used as the Greenford trains ran through to either Ealing Broadway or Paddington: it was built or upgraded when it came clear that the increase in train frequency due to Crossrail would mean that the Greenfords would clash with the Crossrail, freight and GWR outer-suburban trains on the Reliefs.

The Up Relief platform was relocated west of the bridge in the early 90s when the reliefs through West Ealing were realigned for higher linespeed in connection with the Heathrow Express.

The bay platform was a Crossrail project, and was because Crossrail was due to gobble up the paths into Paddington the Greenford services used. It was late 2016/early 2017 when it was opened; and the Greenford service has started/terminated there ever since; barring start and end of day.

A fast-charging Battery EMU would be ideal for Greenfords, and probably Marlows.

Windsor, Bourne End and Henley are significantly busier; peak services would easily justify 4/5/6 car Turbo formations if the infrastructure allowed (in the case of Windsor) and there were sufficient units. Indeed the ancillary benefit of the through trains from Bourne End and Henley was that for the peaks it enabled the branch formations to be strengthened without the torturous timetabling it would require these days as self-contained services.

All 3 (well, 2 1/2) justify a 4 car EMU easily at peak time, and if 769 deployment plans remain the same the Henley and the Peak Bourne Ends will get that in the short to medium term. Wiring remains ideal as it would permit 8 car 387 formations to be used for special events such as Henley Regatta or any Royal events at Windsor with only minor platform extensions at the termini - a temporary structure may be viable in these cases.

A 2/3 car BEMU would be woefully inadequate for anything but the between-peaks service on the Windsor or Henley; service frequency is already at the theoretical maximum with absolute minimum turnarounds as it is. There are other places on GWR where the technology maybe useful if proven and the necessary infrastructure can be provided.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 2/3 car BEMU would be woefully inadequate for anything but the between-peaks service on the Windsor or Henley; service frequency is already at the theoretical maximum with absolute minimum turnarounds as it is. There are other places on GWR where the technology maybe useful if proven and the necessary infrastructure can be provided.

On the other hand, a pair of D78s (or a 4-car set, but I guess you're wanting to standardise) with Tube style interior would be ideal.

 

[RobShipway]

The Up Relief platform was relocated west of the bridge in the early 90s when the reliefs through West Ealing were realigned for higher linespeed in connection with the Heathrow Express.

The bay platform was a Crossrail project, and was because Crossrail was due to gobble up the paths into Paddington the Greenford services used. It was late 2016/early 2017 when it was opened; and the Greenford service has started/terminated there ever since; barring start and end of day.

A fast-charging Battery EMU would be ideal for Greenfords, and probably Marlows.

Windsor, Bourne End and Henley are significantly busier; peak services would easily justify 4/5/6 car Turbo formations if the infrastructure allowed (in the case of Windsor) and there were sufficient units. Indeed the ancillary benefit of the through trains from Bourne End and Henley was that for the peaks it enabled the branch formations to be strengthened without the torturous timetabling it would require these days as self-contained services.

All 3 (well, 2 1/2) justify a 4 car EMU easily at peak time, and if 769 deployment plans remain the same the Henley and the Peak Bourne Ends will get that in the short to medium term. Wiring remains ideal as it would permit 8 car 387 formations to be used for special events such as Henley Regatta or any Royal events at Windsor with only minor platform extensions at the termini - a temporary structure may be viable in these cases.

A 2/3 car BEMU would be woefully inadequate for anything but the between-peaks service on the Windsor or Henley; service frequency is already at the theoretical maximum with absolute minimum turnarounds as it is. There are other places on GWR where the technology maybe useful if proven and the necessary infrastructure can be provided.

In two to three years time, TFW will be replacing their class 769's with class 756 trains, so there is some extra class 769's that GWR could lease in the future. For the short term, GWR may have to still have some class 165 units based at Reading for Marlow/Bourne End and Henley services. Although, I still think that Henley should have been made OHLE so that you could have a 4 car class 387 working the route and have two units together when you have events like Henley Regatta or alternatively use Stadler CityLInk or bi-mode class 756 with four coaches. You could then use a 3 coach option of the class 756 on the Maidenhead - Bourne End/Marlow route, if it will fit.

 

[A0]

In two to three years time, TFW will be replacing their class 769's with class 756 trains, so there is some extra class 769's that GWR could lease in the future. For the short term, GWR may have to still have some class 165 units based at Reading for Marlow/Bourne End and Henley services. Although, I still think that Henley should have been made OHLE so that you could have a 4 car class 387 working the route and have two units together when you have events like Henley Regatta or alternatively use Stadler CityLInk or bi-mode class 756 with four coaches. You could then use a 3 coach option of the class 756 on the Maidenhead - Bourne End/Marlow route, if it will fit.

Bit in bold:

Are the platform lengths long enough on the Henley branch for 8 car ?

 

[JonathanH]

Bit in bold:

Are the platform lengths long enough on the Henley branch for 8 car ?

Twyford, platform 5 - 110m
Wargrave - 156m
Shiplake - 149m
Henley-on-Thames 177m

so, yes, a pair of 387s could fit for the Regatta with a bit of SDO at Wargrave and Shiplake and using platform 4 for reversals at Twyford if a suitable slot in the timetable could be found. It is a somewhat moot point though.

Henley and Bourne End are getting 769s though so I don't know why all these other types of units are being mentioned.

 

[RobShipway]

Henley and Bourne End are getting 769s though so I don't know why all these other types of units are being mentioned.

Can you provide a link please that states that Henley and Bourne End are getting class 769's?

How long is the platforms at Marlow and is there enough space at Bourne End for a 4-car unit?

 

[JonathanH]

Can you provide a link please that states that Henley and Bourne End are getting class 769's?

Yes https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rmation-discussion.174866/page-6#post-4535187 and https://gwr-newsroom.prgloo.com/news/great-western-railway-receives-the-uk-s-first-tri-mode-train

Present plans will see the trains deployed between Reading and Basingstoke, Reading, Redhill and Gatwick, and on the Henley and Bourne End lines. The tri-mode nature of the train will give GWR additional flexibility to use them in other areas of the network should they be required in the future.

Note that it is the peak time Maidenhead to Bourne End trains that are getting 769s when the Marlow branch unit it locked on on the Bourne End to Marlow stretch, not the all day service, which remains one of the 9 2-car Turbo diagrams at Reading - 8 if one isn't needed for Greenford.

How long is the platforms at Marlow and is there enough space at Bourne End for a 4-car unit?

Marlow is 54m, Bourne End down platform is 47m so restricted to 2-car Turbos but for 769s, Bourne End up platform is 125m, Cookham is 108m and Furze Platt is 138m

 

[RobShipway]

Yes https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rmation-discussion.174866/page-6#post-4535187 and https://gwr-newsroom.prgloo.com/news/great-western-railway-receives-the-uk-s-first-tri-mode-train



Note that it is the peak time Maidenhead to Bourne End trains that are getting 769s when the Marlow branch unit it locked on on the Bourne End to Marlow stretch, not the all day service, which remains one of the 9 2-car Turbo diagrams at Reading - 8 if one isn't needed for Greenford.


Marlow is 54m, Bourne End down platform is 47m so restricted to 2-car Turbos but for 769s, Bourne End up platform is 125m, Cookham is 108m and Furze Platt is 138m

Thanks. With apologies to fellow members, I trust links that have come from the horses mouth such as https://gwr-newsroom.prgloo.com/news/great-western-railway-receives-the-uk-s-first-tri-mode-train more so than items mentioned in Rail forums that are whispers and gossips.

But getting this thread back on track, I still think that if Hitachi are making a bid for the procurement, that they make more sense than having Vivarail, who would have to be finding a depot or hiring space in a depot to be doing any maintenance on unit or units being used.

 

[Meerkat]

But getting this thread back on track, I still think that if Hitachi are making a bid for the procurement, that they make more sense than having Vivarail, who would have to be finding a depot or hiring space in a depot to be doing any maintenance on unit or units being used.

Just hire a corner of the Plasser works

 

[option]

How's it different to any other kind of fast charging facility, which the specification has installed at Greenford? Surely it won't be a plug-in cable?

Why not?
Greenford is 2.5miles/4km each way.

the buses are fitted with 422kWh water cooled batteries which are capable of a 370km range on a single 3.4 hour charge.

News

Find out the latest news from Pelican from company news to the latest in electric coaches and buses and innovations for the industry

pelicanyutong.co.uk

 

[BasildonBob]

I've just watched a recording of an IET webinar presented on 14 June 2021 by Richard Baker, a consultant engineer with Vivarail, about their fast charging system. The focus was mainly on the safety and control aspects of the charging system (which was fascinating in itself) but during the Q & A at the end, he mentioned that they are now "frantically" building a second battery powered prototype which initially be used "somewhere in the North" at the end of this year. Although it will be equipped with the retractable shoes needed for fast charging from a short length of 3rd & 4th rail in the stations, it won't have the necessary control systems installed at that point so will, in his words, be charged using a "whacking great plug and socket"!

He added that when it has finished doing what it needs to do in the North, it will be returned to Vivarail to have the rest of the charging circuitry added and will then be going to "a branch line somewhere to the west of London" sometime around the summer of 2022.