GWR battery train procurement suggestions & predictions

[mattdickinson]

Yeah I can't see anything but Vivarail tbh... They have a Rapid Charge System developed (or in development) and, as other have said, Cleared Stock for the metals.

I don't think the Greenford Bay has any electrification does it?

The tracks on the other platform edges are electrified at 750V DC...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The tracks on the other platform edges are electrified at 750V DC...

If they didn't wire the bay at the other end then that is some proper cheaping out.

 

[mattdickinson]

If they didn't wire the bay at the other end then that is some proper cheaping out.

Platform 5 at West Ealing is only accessible from the Greenford branch so not much point in electrifying it.

 

[fgwrich]

Platform 5 at West Ealing is only accessible from the Greenford branch so not much point in electrifying it.

Indeed, as it's only purpose is for the Greenford Shuttle (and occasional Chiltern service), there's no point in electrifying the bay for it until something else requires the fitment of OHLE along the branch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Platform 5 at West Ealing is only accessible from the Greenford branch so not much point in electrifying it.

I think it was fairly predictable that battery EMUs might be used at some point. So I'm sticking with it being a cheap-out.

Same with Windsor.

 

[Non Multi]

Maybe I'm wrong, but a curious lack of enthusiasm from insiders further up the thread does point to a trial of the battery d unit.

 

[High Dyke]

Have I missed something here, but aren't the Class 769/9 units ideal for this branch. Are GWR able to order a couple of additional conversions? They can also operate on the sections of route into Paddington on the AC wires, if required. Perhaps there isn't the capacity for the service to run to/from Paddington the same nowadays?

 

[Non Multi]

Have I missed something here, but aren't the Class 769/9 units ideal for this branch. Are GWR able to order a couple of additional conversions? They can also operate on the sections of route into Paddington on the AC wires, if required. Perhaps there isn't the capacity for the service to run to/from Paddington the same nowadays?

2 coaches too long, and they can't be shortened.

 

[Mikey C]

It's a quiet shuttle service with low passenger numbers, Vivarail's product is perfectly suited really.

 

[Meerkat]

2 coaches too long, and they can't be shortened.

And they are still diesels!

 

[Non Multi]

And they are still diesels!

That's a minor detail!

 

[Fincra5]

The tracks on the other platform edges are electrified at 750V DC...

Sorry, I meant the Bay at West Ealing.

 

[brad465]

Have I missed something here, but aren't the Class 769/9 units ideal for this branch. Are GWR able to order a couple of additional conversions? They can also operate on the sections of route into Paddington on the AC wires, if required. Perhaps there isn't the capacity for the service to run to/from Paddington the same nowadays?

2 coaches too long, and they can't be shortened.

That's a minor detail!

The HydroFlex (Class 799) concept would work on the cleaner energy front were the carriage length not a problem.

Of course they could always go the whole hog and actually electrify the branch properly, but I'm sure there are plenty of reasons, including a poor BCR stopping that. As was alluded to further up, the Windsor branch could do with similar treatment in terms of battery/electric removing a really short diesel stretch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course they could always go the whole hog and actually electrify the branch properly, but I'm sure there are plenty of reasons, including a poor BCR stopping that. As was alluded to further up, the Windsor branch could do with similar treatment in terms of battery/electric removing a really short diesel stretch.

TBH I'd wire all the Thames Valley branches. Not doing so was cheaping out (just like not going to Bristol Temple Meads) - the cost would be negligible, and they're all just mini Windermeres in that regard.

 

[southern442]

TBH I'd wire all the Thames Valley branches. Not doing so was cheaping out (just like not going to Bristol Temple Meads) - the cost would be negligible, and they're all just mini Windermeres in that regard.

That does have the added bonus of bringing back some of the peak time continuations into London (although I suppose that could hypothetically happen anyway were they to use 769s). It may be worth having a look at Windsor to London services in the peaks too.

So it looks as though GWR will be getting 230s or similar after all, albeit maybe not in the places we were expecting.

 

[brad465]

TBH I'd wire all the Thames Valley branches. Not doing so was cheaping out (just like not going to Bristol Temple Meads) - the cost would be negligible, and they're all just mini Windermeres in that regard.

I don't know how BCRs are properly calculated, but I imagine the best and most sensible value would be obtained by factoring all the branch lines into one calculation, which would account for the rolling stock benefits in terms of flexibility as well as performance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That does have the added bonus of bringing back some of the peak time continuations into London (although I suppose that could hypothetically happen anyway were they to use 769s). It may be worth having a look at Windsor to London services in the peaks too.

Problem with Windsor is that it's on the wrong side - you'd lose a couple of fast line paths getting it over to the reliefs. And short trains aren't a good use of paths. But that said, that doesn't mean it's not worth doing it, because it would in most or all cases just be a case of stringing it off the mainline, so in railway terms the cost is negligible.

I don't know how BCRs are properly calculated, but I imagine the best and most sensible value would be obtained by factoring all the branch lines into one calculation, which would account for the rolling stock benefits in terms of flexibility as well as performance.

Yes, diesel islands are a(n expensive) nuisance.

 

[JonathanH]

The HydroFlex (Class 799) concept would work on the cleaner energy front were the carriage length not a problem.

How would the hydrogen be transported to West Ealing from wherever it is manufactured?

the cost would be negligible

Is that really true? - I think it has been suggested that the tunnels and bridges at the Southern end of the Greenford line don't make it easy.

That does have the added bonus of bringing back some of the peak time continuations into London (although I suppose that could hypothetically happen anyway were they to use 769s).

It absolutely doesn't - there is no capacity for trains off the Thames Valley branches to go into Paddington regardless of how they are powered - certainly not with 769s. The relief line is all about Crossrail now (and residual GWR local services beyond Reading)

 

[Bald Rick]

TBH I'd wire all the Thames Valley branches. Not doing so was cheaping out (just like not going to Bristol Temple Meads) - the cost would be negligible, and they're all just mini Windermeres in that regard.

Approx 23 single track km. £40m at the very least. A lot more than a handful of short battery trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would the hydrogen be transported to West Ealing from wherever it is manufactured?

The same way it's transported anywhere else - in a lorry in liquid form.

 

[Non Multi]

TBH I'd wire all the Thames Valley branches. Not doing so was cheaping out (just like not going to Bristol Temple Meads) - the cost would be negligible, and they're all just mini Windermeres in that regard.

It's not in the NR electrification wishlist. Anyway, they need to devote their finite resources to electrifying key routes that provide the biggest possible benefit.

That does have the added bonus of bringing back some of the peak time continuations into London (although I suppose that could hypothetically happen anyway were they to use 769s). It may be worth having a look at Windsor to London services in the peaks too.

So it looks as though GWR will be getting 230s or similar after all, albeit maybe not in the places we were expecting.

They were culled to create paths for Crossrail. They aren't coming back.

 

[JonathanH]

The same way it's transported anywhere else - in a lorry.

Yes, so that somewhat negates the green credentials. Where is the nearest Hydrogen plant to West Ealing?

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, so that somewhat negates the green credentials. Where is the nearest Hydrogen plant to West Ealing?

Needs to be the right sort of hydrogen too...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, so that somewhat negates the green credentials.

Better than diesel, which also arrives in a lorry.

 

[Bald Rick]

Better than diesel, which also arrives in a lorry.

Not if it’s the wrong sort of hydrogen!

 

[hwl]

Not if it’s the wrong sort of hydrogen!

Indeed. The wrong sort can be worse in GHG terms than diesel.

Yes, so that somewhat negates the green credentials. Where is the nearest Hydrogen plant to West Ealing?

TfL are/were building one on the other side of London but al the cheap fossil hydrogen is from Mersey /Humber /Tees areas

 

[Energy]

And they are still diesels!

And the 19 already for GWR haven't entered service yet so I doubt GWR are too enthusiastic for any more.

 

[Fincra5]

TBH I'd wire all the Thames Valley branches. Not doing so was cheaping out (just like not going to Bristol Temple Meads) - the cost would be negligible, and they're all just mini Windermeres in that regard.

Thats all well and good but you'd need a 2 car EMU (or 3 if you get one thats a cl777 length) for those routes.... Lots of expense. I do see the advantage of battery trains on these short routes, with short trains.

Seems a simple and effective system for those short branches!

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know how BCRs are properly calculated, but I imagine the best and most sensible value would be obtained by factoring all the branch lines into one calculation, which would account for the rolling stock benefits in terms of flexibility as well as performance.

All the Thames Valley branches including Basingstoke but not Greenford were in one combined CP5 project originally. Then they withdrew Marlow as too difficult, then they separated out Basingstoke. IIRC Greenford was never in the scope at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thats all well and good but you'd need a 2 car EMU (or 3 if you get one thats a cl777 length) for those routes

This came up in discussion before, and the TfW-spec high floor Stadler Citylinks would be a perfect fit.