GWR battery train procurement suggestions & predictions

[D365]

It might be this: https://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-lau...ain-with-a-range-of-60-miles-between-charges/

Short version: Two lengths of rail on insulators in LU 4-rail configuration, Train has carbon ceramic shoes for power transfer. Rapid charge station is a battery pack at trackside that trickle charges from grid to allow it to dump the energy into the train's batteries without causing a local voltage drop.

That’s the plan, let’s hope summer 2022 is realistic as a fair bit of development is still needed before it will be allowed on Network Rail metals.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Approx 23 single track km. £40m at the very least. A lot more than a handful of short battery trains.

There all low speed so simple tramway catenary could be used but agree the economic solution would be battery trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jun 2021 ==

750v isn’t very fast charging for the type of current you can get through an OLE / Pantograph interface.

750V is already matched to nominal battery voltage used on the trains and standard shoegear can support 100's amps. A 25kV fed charger will need to be transformed and rectified adding to cost but 25kV could be used to power a fixed substation to feed a local third rail as per VivaRail.

 

[D365]

There all low speed so simple tramway catenary could be used but agree the economic solution would be battery trains.

Even if Bald Rick hasn't already based his estimate on low-speed OHLE, it wouldn't give you a significant saving...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Even if Bald Rick hasn't already based his estimate on low-speed OHLE, it wouldn't give you a significant saving...

Indeed hence my assessment that trains with battery capability offer by far and away the best solution for the branches like the Thames Valley.

 

[Meerkat]

Indeed hence my assessment that trains with battery capability offer by far and away the best solution for the branches like the Thames Valley.

Even for lifetime cost including replacing the batteries, using more power due to losses in and out the battery and lugging the extra weight about? Presumably higher track charges too?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Even for lifetime cost including replacing the batteries, using more power due to losses in and out the battery and lugging the extra weight about? Presumably higher track charges too?

If they were straight battery trains be same weight as carting a transformer around but if BiMode then yes extra weight but least they don't need to be filled up with diesel like Azumas.

 

[Bald Rick]

750V is already matched to nominal battery voltage used on the trains and standard shoegear can support 100's amps.

Yes, but, I was talking about current through 750v D.C. OLE, which is lower than shoegear can support.

Even for lifetime cost including replacing the batteries, using more power due to losses in and out the battery and lugging the extra weight about? Presumably higher track charges too?

Yes, by a long way. Power losses in battery charging will typically be lower than power loses in a D.C. 750v system with miles of conductors.

 

[Meerkat]

Yes, by a long way. Power losses in battery charging will typically be lower than power loses in a D.C. 750v system with miles of conductors.

Sorry, I thought we were comparing it with AC overheads?

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry, I thought we were comparing it with AC overheads?

Ah, sorry I didn’t realise. With AC overheads each unit is carrying around a couple of tonnes of transformer. Therefore the weight isn’t an issue, and power transfer losses are actually pretty small.

 

[Meerkat]

Ah, sorry I didn’t realise. With AC overheads each unit is carrying around a couple of tonnes of transformer. Therefore the weight isn’t an issue, and power transfer losses are actually pretty small.

How heavy are the battery packs?
The battery train would still have a transformer unless it is a Vivarail type unit that will be maintained on site (or the charger can give it enough to pop back to Reading I guess).
I admit I am biased against batteries because I just don’t like all those chemicals being used, lugged about, and replaced rather than a near permanent infrastructure solution. Better than diesel by a long way obvs!

 

[BayPaul]

Something that hasn't been mentioned here, and which I found really exciting, is the 'trial' element of this - i.e. that if the trial is a success, this could be used as a blueprint for a lot of similar lines. GWR are a prime example, with the Thames valley branches, Basingstoke - Reading, Severn Beach line, and the Cornish branches being ideal for self-contained battery operation (if trickle-charging batteries are used for the latter examples), but there are a lot of other locations - even somewhere like the Norfolk branches would be a lot more environmentally friendly if operated by battery EMUs rather than bi-mode FLIRTS in diesel mode.
I know the default in here is to say 'just wire the lot', but there are so many priorities with electrification, for me batteries are so much more sensible for situations like this, at least until we've wired all the mainlines

 

[Meerkat]

Something that hasn't been mentioned here, and which I found really exciting, is the 'trial' element of this - i.e. that if the trial is a success, this could be used as a blueprint for a lot of similar lines. GWR are a prime example, with the Thames valley branches, Basingstoke - Reading, Severn Beach line, and the Cornish branches being ideal for self-contained battery operation (if trickle-charging batteries are used for the latter examples), but there are a lot of other locations - even somewhere like the Norfolk branches would be a lot more environmentally friendly if operated by battery EMUs rather than bi-mode FLIRTS in diesel mode.
I know the default in here is to say 'just wire the lot', but there are so many priorities with electrification, for me batteries are so much more sensible for situations like this, at least until we've wired all the mainlines

Are even fast chargers quick enough for the tight turn around branches such as St Ives?
Of course one shouldn’t immediately take a no as a showstopper - maybe the quicker acceleration plus some linespeed work might create enough turn around.
But how much can it really cost to electrify St Ives (once main line done)!

 

[BayPaul]

Are even fast chargers quick enough for the tight turn around branches such as St Ives?
Of course one shouldn’t immediately take a no as a showstopper - maybe the quicker acceleration plus some linespeed work might create enough turn around.
But how much can it really cost to electrify St Ives (once main line done)!

The point in bold is the critical one. It's going to be 20 years plus before Penzance is wired even if you are very optimistic on electrification. If you can work out a way to do batteries on the branch, then that's 20 years less emissions. The average turnaround time is 4 minutes at each end now the Lelant Saltings call has been dropped (10-12 minute run), so if the charging can connect automatically and instantly, that gives 16 minutes per hour of charge time if chargers are installed at both ends, which doesn't sound impossible

 

[RobShipway]

The point in bold is the critical one. It's going to be 20 years plus before Penzance is wired even if you are very optimistic on electrification. If you can work out a way to do batteries on the branch, then that's 20 years less emissions. The average turnaround time is 4 minutes at each end now the Lelant Saltings call has been dropped (10-12 minute run), so if the charging can connect automatically and instantly, that gives 16 minutes per hour of charge time if chargers are installed at both ends, which doesn't sound impossible

Could you not setup a platform within the next few years with OLE at say Penzance to be able to charge up a battery train within the next few years, even though full electrification maybe more than 20 years away?

 

[BayPaul]

Could you not setup a platform within the next few years with OLE at say Penzance to be able to charge up a battery train within the next few years, even full electrification maybe more than 20 years away?

That was my point really, especially for branch line trains (i.e. from St Erth to St Ives). Mainline trains are probably beyond current battery technology, given that they need to run all the way to Newbury before they get to the OHLE, though if GWR's other experiment with batteries supplementing the diesels on 802s works (as I recall), then it could make sense to charge those batteries in Penzance, so the train can arrive in Penzance with empty batteries and depart full, to maximise use of that technology.

 

[Mikey C]

While using battery trains on say the Looe branch line seems ideal, the current 150 shuttling backwards and forwards is hardly making much of a difference to the country's CO2 output, and air quality in rural Cornwall isn't a problem either!

And the unit will need to get back to Plymouth where it is based, so a 60mph Vivarail unit might cause problems on the mainline?

 

[Bald Rick]

How heavy are the battery packs?

Depends how much power you want. A 500kWh battery pack - which would keep a 4 coach Electrostar going for well over an hour on a normal cycle.

I admit I am biased against batteries because I just don’t like all those chemicals being used

Don’t look inside a transformer then. Some horrible chemicals in there.

Are even fast chargers quick enough for the tight turn around branches such as St Ives?

Yes. With the right charging rate, you could get enough for each run, and one assumes the battery capacity would be much higher than for one run, and that it would get fully charged overnight.

Battery trains would be a good solution for that branch. Slow speed. Regular stop start. They would also be quicker (being electric) so that would potentially leave a little more time each end for charging than there is now.

 

[option]

Are even fast chargers quick enough for the tight turn around branches such as St Ives?
Of course one shouldn’t immediately take a no as a showstopper - maybe the quicker acceleration plus some linespeed work might create enough turn around.
But how much can it really cost to electrify St Ives (once main line done)!

9mile/14km round trip.

A 7kw home charger for an ev car can add 30miles range in an hour. A 50kw charger will do up to 90miles from a half hour charge.
New ev buses have a 350km+ range from one under 4hour charge https://pelicanyutong.co.uk/go-north-east-voltra-e10-electric-buses/

You're not charging after each trip.



You can even put solar panels on the train itself

Byron Bay Train » Sustainability

byronbaytrain.com.au

Ok we don't have the sun that Australia has, but on a lighter/more efficient train, with a larger surface area & more efficient solar panels...
(note that the Australian system is nearly 4 years old already)

 

[BayPaul]

While using battery trains on say the Looe branch line seems ideal, the current 150 shuttling backwards and forwards is hardly making much of a difference to the country's CO2 output, and air quality in rural Cornwall isn't a problem either!

And the unit will need to get back to Plymouth where it is based, so a 60mph Vivarail unit might cause problems on the mainline?

If everyone says that their impact is tiny, then nothing gets done. As a nation, and a planet, it is important to pick off the low-hanging fruit ASAP. For my mind, short branch line battery trains are low hanging fruit for decarbonisation.

If the toilet detanking issue can be solved (e.g. more toilets in stations, composting toilets like those being fitted to 701s, or perhaps emptying to a road tanker), presumably the trains could remain overnight on branch line, serviced Vivarail style with a man and van, and only return to Plymouth or Long Rock once a week or so for heavier maintenance, so timetabling shouldn't be a massive issue, making the movement at night and running behind a freight slot for example. Fully charged, I would think they could get from Par or Liskeard to Plymouth, and from Truro to Penzance, or alternatively, a loco haul wouldn't be impossible.

 

[RobShipway]

You can even put solar panels on the train itself

Byron Bay Train » Sustainability

byronbaytrain.com.au

Ok we don't have the sun that Australia has, but on a lighter/more efficient train, with a larger surface area & more efficient solar panels...
(note that the Australian system is nearly 4 years old already)

As long as the sun can be seen, then the Solar panels will be able to feed on photons to produce electric energy. However, you have to be careful as solar panels when connected to batteries, as they could draw power from them to keep any electronics with the Solar panels working if photons cannot be obtained.

I am presuming that the GWR battery train will get it's power from a diesel generator as per the class 230 units that will work for TFW that are battery-diesel powered. If not, then you will have to find some way as discussed in this thread earlier in charging the batteries for the class 230 unit if that is what is used, which could mean having a third rail for the unit to charge from or placing a pantograph on top that could reach any OLE setup at West Ealing.

Going forward, in an ideal world a battery train would have a Solar panel roof such that when photons are available during the day, the train could charge itself as it goes along as well as being charged at on or either end of a branch route in some form. That way when sun is available, there is no much charging that needs to be done. The problem will come though, when the morning and nights start to get darker through the winter period and through this time, it would be relying on the charging of the unit at either end of the line for power.

 

[BayPaul]

As long as the sun can be seen, then the Solar panels will be able to feed on photons to produce electric energy. However, you have to be careful as solar panels when connected to batteries, as they could draw power from them to keep any electronics with the Solar panels working if photons cannot be obtained.

I am presuming that the GWR battery train will get it's power from a diesel generator as per the class 230 units that will work for TFW that are battery-diesel powered. If not, then you will have to find some way as discussed in this thread earlier in charging the batteries for the class 230 unit if that is what is used, which could mean having a third rail for the unit to charge from or placing a pantograph on top that could reach any OLE setup at West Ealing.

Going forward, in an ideal world a battery train would have a Solar panel roof such that when photons are available during the day, the train could charge itself as it goes along as well as being charged at on or either end of a branch route in some form. That way when sun is available, there is no much charging that needs to be done. The problem will come though, when the morning and nights start to get darker through the winter period and through this time, it would be relying on the charging of the unit at either end of the line for power.

This thread is about a train that is charged at its terminus stations. Having it charged by a diesel generator doesn't bring much of an environmental benefit.

Solar panels are unlikely to come anywhere near the required power. You are looking at around 200W per square metre of solar panel in good sunlight, so around 8kW per carriage, but unlike panels on a roof, they would need to be flat, rather than aligned to point at the sun. A class 700 train has about 400kW of power per carriage, so even in ideal conditions, solar power fitted to the train would be 1 or 2 % of the demand. Much better to put the solar panels in a field, and run a power cable to a battery at the terminus station (or concentrate on running railways, and ask the National grid to do that bit for you )

 

[RobShipway]

This thread is about a train that is charged at its terminus stations. Having it charged by a diesel generator doesn't bring much of an environmental benefit.

Solar panels are unlikely to come anywhere near the required power. You are looking at around 200W per square metre of solar panel in good sunlight, so around 8kW per carriage, but unlike panels on a roof, they would need to be flat, rather than aligned to point at the sun. A class 700 train has about 400kW of power per carriage, so even in ideal conditions, solar power fitted to the train would be 1 or 2 % of the demand. Much better to put the solar panels in a field, and run a power cable to a battery at the terminus station (or concentrate on running railways, and ask the National grid to do that bit for you )

True. But I did say in an ideal world, I did not say that it would happen..........

 

[option]

This thread is about a train that is charged at its terminus stations. Having it charged by a diesel generator doesn't bring much of an environmental benefit.

Solar panels are unlikely to come anywhere near the required power. You are looking at around 200W per square metre of solar panel in good sunlight, so around 8kW per carriage, but unlike panels on a roof, they would need to be flat, rather than aligned to point at the sun. A class 700 train has about 400kW of power per carriage, so even in ideal conditions, solar power fitted to the train would be 1 or 2 % of the demand. Much better to put the solar panels in a field, and run a power cable to a battery at the terminus station (or concentrate on running railways, and ask the National grid to do that bit for you )

1) Solar could be used to run the non-traction systems, & if there's any power left over drip feed it into the batteries. I'm not suggesting that we try & run solar trains now, but with increasing panel efficiencies then they could be of use.

2) Small branch lines likely won't need anything as powerful as a class 700, so on train solar might supply more of the load.



I don't see why people are so stuck on having to charge via either OLE or 3rd rail. Just plug it in!

A plug-in charger, like those already in use for cars & buses, can be powered from a battery that has been drip-fed, if there isn't a suitable power supply available.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't see why people are so stuck on having to charge via either OLE or 3rd rail. Just plug it in!

A plug-in charger, like those already in use for cars & buses, can be powered from a battery that has been drip-fed, if there isn't a suitable power supply available.

Plugging in (and out) takes time, and needs someone to do the plugging. Given that we have had two standard, automatic, methods of getting electricity at high power into trains for 70 years (and one of them for a century), there’s no need to invent another.

 

[option]

Plugging in (and out) takes time, and needs someone to do the plugging. Given that we have had two standard, automatic, methods of getting electricity at high power into trains for 70 years (and one of them for a century), there’s no need to invent another.

So you have your train at St Ives, & you're going to leave it overnight to charge. Therefore time, & who does the plugging/unplugging isn't an issue.

You fit either;
OLE (needs all the usual physical equipment, & has an exposed high voltage wire, & someone has to raise the pantograph)
3rd rail (you could control it so it's only live whilst charging, but you've still got an exposed contact, & someone has to lower the collector)
charging cable (can be locked to the socket on the train, so no exposed contacts, & also includes a communications protocol, so that battery state & 'smart' charging* can be managed)


*smart charging means that the battery state is assessed, & then the correct amount of power is supplied to charge the batteries in the most efficient & least damaging way.
You don't just dump power into a battery until it's full, doing so shortens it's life.


Those methods of getting electricity into trains is for running live systems, battery charging is different.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t know how many U.K. rail industry battery train studies you’ve read, but I think I’m on my fourth or fifth.

So you have your train at St Ives, & you're going to leave it overnight to charge. Therefore time, & who does the plugging/unplugging isn't an issue.

It is when you need to do a short boost charge during a 4-6 minute turnaround.

OLE (needs all the usual physical equipment, & has an exposed high voltage wire, & someone has to raise the pantograph)

At worst, raising a pantograph is pushing a button. But I would expect it to be automatic (like on the Class 700s, for example).

3rd rail (you could control it so it's only live whilst charging, but you've still got an exposed contact, & someone has to lower the collector)

There wouldn’t be exposed contact if it’s only live while charging, only a few metres long, and under the train. And you don’t need to lower it; or if you do, it can be done automatically.

smart charging means that the battery state is assessed, & then the correct amount of power is supplied to charge the batteries in the most efficient & least damaging way.

This can be, has been, and will be done via a pantograph or shoe. The method of connection to the power is irrelevant when it comes to the smartness of charging.

Let us not forget that there are battery rail vehicles running in passenger service in this country, and across Europe, and few if any of them are ‘plugged in’.

 

[option]

It is when you need to do a short boost charge during a 4-6 minute turnaround.


Let us not forget that there are battery rail vehicles running in passenger service in this country, and across Europe, and few if any of them are ‘plugged in’.

How is the main charging done then?

 

[Bald Rick]

How is the main charging done then?

Wherever it is stabled.

 

[RobShipway]

How is the main charging done then?

A good example would be the trams that operate on West Midlands Metro. The CAF Urbos 3 batteries are charged both overnight while stabled, but also in sections where it is using overhead pantograph. Where OLE cannot be setup, the Urbos 3 units are using batteries as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAF_Urbos#CAF_Urbos_3 where it states the following:

CAF has developed an option to build 'Greentech Freedrive' lithium-ion supercapacitors and batteries into the Urbos 3, allowing brief operation without an external electrical supply. This ACR system (Acumulador de Carga Rápida) allowed the tramway operator in Seville to remove the overhead wires in key locations during Holy Week 2011. It has also been used in Luxembourg, Granada, Zaragoza and the West Midlands.

 

[SynthD]

Does the platform length third rail need to be compatible with the regular third rail on LU or the SE rail network? If not, they could choose underside contact for safety.