More units for Northern

[Hey 3]

Out of these units, if the 323's replaces the 319's then the 333's should be replaced by 379's from AGA.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is it still the case, as in past years, that Northern are still looked upon as the final resting ground for units that other TOC no longer need due to new stock arriving at those TOC?

 

[CarrotPie]

a) its the concern of Macquire (the owner) not Northern

b) GN* (as has been suggested in other threads) is a far more suitable place for them than Northern.

*short for Great Northern, abbreviated to avoid confusion with Northern Trains.

Aren't the 379s owned by Akiem?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2021 ==

Is it still the case, as in past years, that Northern are still looked upon as the final resting ground for units that other TOC no longer need due to new stock arriving at those TOC?

Yes.

 

[JonathanH]

Aren't the 379s owned by Akiem?

Yes - https://www.akiem.com/en/trains-passagers/class-379-2/

The Class 379 is a is variant of the proven Electrostar product platform manufactured by Bombardier. Electrostars have operated extensively and successfully in the UK since first introduced in 2002, achieving some of the highest reliability figures in the UK. These 25kV electric trains are in a 4-car configuration and are operated by Abellio East Anglia Limited on the Stansted Express service between Stansted Airport and London. The trains are PRM compliant and have an enhanced passenger environment in first and standard class with passenger information, CCTV, excellent provision for luggage, passenger Wi-Fi and a wayside communication system that enables automatic updating of journey information and the first class seat reservations.

ROSCO Akiem Finalises Acquisition Deal with Macquarie European Rail

ROSCO Akiem Group finalised its acquisition of Macquarie European Rail on 23 April, now leasing rolling stock to 65 operators.

railway-news.com

Akiem Group, which announced on 17 February [2020] that it had signed a definitive agreement to acquire rolling stock leasing company Macquarie European Rail (MER), received approval by the relevant authorities and has now finalised the transaction.

This acquisition further strengthens Akiem Group’s position among European locomotive leasing companies, giving it the continent’s biggest fleet.

but that doesn't mean they need to be used by Northern. In fact, given that Akiem appear to have little other involvement in the UK rolling stock business, there is potentially even less reason to use the units since money won't be needing to be recovered in lease charges against another UK fleet.

You still haven't explained why 379s would be better for the Leeds North West network than 333s, other than some level of sympathy for the leasing company. I'm very interested to know your reasons.

 

[Metrolink]

Is it still the case, as in past years, that Northern are still looked upon as the final resting ground for units that other TOC no longer need due to new stock arriving at those TOC?

Sadly in my opinion, I think it is.

 

[JonathanH]

Sadly in my opinion, I think it is.

Somewhere has to be. GWR in the West Country is similar. There will come a time (around 2040) when the large fleets of Electrostars running on the Southern and South Eastern networks will be the oldest trains on the network. It is cyclical.

It isn't all of Northern in any case, the routes which are sufficiently lucrative still get new trains - eg the 195 and 331 fleets.

 

[HarryL]

Yes, but using the 379s gives them a home, whereas buying new 331s to replace the 333s would just exacerbate the issue.

But doing the swap wouldn't solve the problem either, it just puts the 333s in place of the 379s. The idea to replace the 333s with more 331s at least makes sense for Northern as it standardises the fleet on the line, replacing them with 379s would be the same issues for Northern, just with a different less ideal unit.

 

[Neptune]

All I would add to this is the 319s are 30 years old and the 323s 25 years old and neither are particularly comfortable. The guard bell to the driver sounds from another century. The door operations from outside on the 323s isn't very good either. From a user's perspective I'd gladly see the back of both (notably 3 cars replacing 4 cars). I'd prefer 331s across the board but failing that something more modern wouldn't go amiss instead of old cast offs

A full fleet of 331’s would be the ideal with 2x3 car sets replacing 333’s (I’d prefer a full 6 car unit for these services personally thereby preventing the risk of short form) but it is unlikely in the current climate.

Replacing the 319’s with further 323’s (not a huge seating reduction and better if run as pairs) reduces the fleet by 1 class which is an improvement.

323’s are far superior to 319’s in terms of performance which is critical on the services they run and many people prefer the accommodation on the 323’s.

 

[AGH]

I'm commuting in and out of Manchester at the moment. They have put regularly a singular 323 on a peak Airport to Liverpool via Chat Moss. Even in these quiet times it's busy putting SD increasingly difficult. pre Covid this was regularly a singular 323 from Crewe to Liverpool and rammed. For all of their technical proficiency and unification of classes, they aren't easily accessible & too small on their own. Two together may solve it but they are still light years behind a 331 (nevermind other options) in terms of comfort and accessibility.

 

[Bigman]

I still think that new bi-modes of whatever description should be the way forward. Routes such as Gateshead Metro Centre - Chathill, Leeds - Sheffield via Moorthorpe, Leeds - Chester via Halifax all run under the wires for substantial parts of the journey.

 

[AGH]

Agree re bi-mode and new not rehashed 30 yr old units. FLIRTS would have been ideal for Northern.

 

[LOL The Irony]

notably 3 cars replacing 4 cars

A 323 only loses 8 seats to a 319 despite having 1 less carriage. In this case, the whole 3 vs 4 carriages is a red herring

old cast offs

323s have been in the Manchester area since their introduction. As Neptune said above, bringing in the 323s WMT don't need anymore allows for a more homogenous fleet and replaces the slower, less reliable, stone age technology 319s.

FLIRTS would have been ideal for Northern.

Back in 2016, they weren't available which caused Arriva to default to CAF. Speaking of which, the FLIRTs aren't having a much better time than the Civitys.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’d only advocate for more trains for northern if it resulted in longer EMU trains and replacement of diesel with bimodes.

Does anyone know how many EMUs are needed to ensure that all Northern EMU services are at least running in double formation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back in 2016, they weren't available which caused Arriva to default to CAF. Speaking of which, the FLIRTs aren't having a much better time than the Civitys.

FLIRTs definitely were available at the same time. I suspect cost was the reason why not.

 

[D6130]

I still think that new bi-modes of whatever description should be the way forward. Routes such as Gateshead Metro Centre - Chathill, Leeds - Sheffield via Moorthorpe, Leeds - Chester via Halifax all run under the wires for substantial parts of the journey.

....not to mention Barrow and Windermere to Manchester Airport!

 

[43096]

FLIRTs definitely were available at the same time. I suspect cost was the reason why not.

Quite so, as Anglia ordered theirs back then.

 

[Energy]

FLIRTs definitely were available at the same time. I suspect cost was the reason why not.

Fuel range is also a consideration, the FLIRTs don't have a particularly long range which is a bigger problem at Northern than GA.

 

[Greybeard33]

Does anyone know how many EMUs are needed to ensure that all Northern EMU services are at least running in double formation?

The issue is not so much number of units, but that Northern has hardly any routes where all the platforms are long enough for a 6-car 323 formation.

The 331s have Selective Door Opening and so can overhang a short platform. But a double 323 needs all platforms to be at least 140m. That is why Northern 323s only operate singly currently.

Possible solutions are a platform lengthening programme (costly), and/or retrofitting SDO to the 323 fleet (also costly) and/or more 331s to replace the 323s and 333s (even more costly).

I doubt we will see investment in any of these before post-pandemic demand becomes much clearer.

 

[Hey 3]

FLIRTs definitely were available at the same time. I suspect cost was the reason why not.

It was the Aventras that were not available.

 

[py_megapixel]

It was the Aventras that were not available.

I believe Bombardier bid Aventras for the EMU part of the contract; the problem was that they were not willing to offer a diesel/bi-mode solution, which lead them to be disqualified as Arriva Rail North wanted sufficient parity between the EMUs and DMUs that they could train staff on one and have them sign both.

 

[Hey 3]

I believe Bombardier bid Aventras for the EMU part of the contract; the problem was that they were not willing to offer a diesel/bi-mode solution, which lead them to be disqualified as Arriva Rail North wanted sufficient parity between the EMUs and DMUs that they could train staff on one and have them sign both.

Correct.

 

[Purple Orange]

The issue is not so much number of units, but that Northern has hardly any routes where all the platforms are long enough for a 6-car 323 formation.

The 331s have Selective Door Opening and so can overhang a short platform. But a double 323 needs all platforms to be at least 140m. That is why Northern 323s only operate singly currently.

Possible solutions are a platform lengthening programme (costly), and/or retrofitting SDO to the 323 fleet (also costly) and/or more 331s to replace the 323s and 333s (even more costly).

I doubt we will see investment in any of these before post-pandemic demand becomes much clearer.

There may only be a few routes where double 323s can operate, but as you say double 331s certainly can. The other aspect here is it’s not that 6-car formations are out of the question at most stations, but rather 6-car formations can be accommodated at a quite a lot of stations.

But in any case, if anyone does know how many EMUs (that are SDO compliant) are needed, I’m interested to know.

 

[HST43257]

I think I’m disappointed that NT only ordered 16 Cl 333s. For 15 diagrams (IIRC), 18 units would be preferable (to cover peak extras as well). If it was so easy, I’d build 2 more 333s so there need be no 331 diagrams in Airedale and Wharfedale. Send them over the Pennines and give us 350s for the rest of the Leeds wired stuff (Donny + TRU).

331s and 323s can share the EMU workings in the North West, with Battery technology being used on 4 331s for Windermere (3 diagrams on a 1tp2h service).

What are WMR keeping 9 323s for?

 

[py_megapixel]

What are WMR keeping 9 323s for?

The official plan is that they won't be kept but rather will be put into storage.

 

[HST43257]

The official plan is that they won't be kept but rather will be put into storage.

Send them up north and give them some use

 

[Purple Orange]

Send them up north and give them some use

And extend necessary platforms to 140m

 

[Neptune]

I think I’m disappointed that NT only ordered 16 Cl 333s. For 15 diagrams (IIRC), 18 units would be preferable (to cover peak extras as well). If it was so easy, I’d build 2 more 333s so there need be no 331 diagrams in Airedale and Wharfedale. Send them over the Pennines and give us 350s for the rest of the Leeds wired stuff (Donny + TRU).

331s and 323s can share the EMU workings in the North West, with Battery technology being used on 4 331s for Windermere (3 diagrams on a 1tp2h service).

What are WMR keeping 9 323s for?

16 built for 14 diagrams with one spare and one on maintenance. Siemens/CAF offered 5 more 4 car units to replace the 321’s and eliminate the final peak diesel diagram after the 4th cars were delivered to enable them to keep the production line open but Metro declined.

Once again, why the obsession with 350’s. I’ve asked this so many times and nobody has come up with an answer. Once again, people need to stop going on about 350’s and 379’s and stop trying to dump them on Northern in their hypothetical, crayon-clad perfect world. It ain’t going to happen so please move on.

If there is any doubt:-

16 x 333’s
31 x 3 car 331’s
12 x 4 car 331’s
34 x 323’s

That is the plan and is what is required.

No 350‘s, no 379’s, so please, stop trying to re-home units that are totally unsuitable and unrequired for Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No 350‘s, no 379’s, so please, stop trying to re-home units that are totally unsuitable and unrequired for Northern.

How are 350s unsuitable for Northern? They're 3+2 seated EMUs of the same length as the 319s so a drop-in replacement for those, and are much newer than the 323s. They also have UDS (Unit Deselect - basic per-unit manual SDO) and gangways so could run as 8 car formations where the doors wouldn't all be platformed.

We like them on the south WCML (yes, even the /2s) and they will be missed - if I was a passenger anywhere else I'd be jumping at getting them.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’m a fan of the 350s and I’d take them tomorrow in place of all northern EMUs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m a fan of the 350s and I’d take them tomorrow in place of all northern EMUs.

I'd take absolutely anything with Siemens quality over anything by "Cheap As..." The 350s are superb units, it's a real shame some silly financial stand-offishness has resulted in us getting inferior (and incompatible) Bombardier kit.

Yes, OK, the 331s have a nice low density seating layout, but fiddling with seating layouts costs pennies compared with the rest of the cost of the unit.