SWR Class 458 to be retained

[dorsetdesiro]

So.... not April's Fool then?

Weymouth also sees the odd 450, I took one during strike action 2-3 years ago.

Wouldn't be surprised to see 458s heading west from Poole especially during engineering works or strike action when the service is operating as a Bournemouth-Weymouth shuttle, requiring a change at Bournemouth for Waterloo services.

They probably would also operate 450 assigned services like Southampton-Portsmouth even go down the Lymington branch line too.

 

[Dan15812]

I expect the 458's will be due a C6 overhaul soon, with interior panels and grab poles repainted.
I expect this will be combined with the planned refurbishment.
They can't possibly get away without installing power sockets on the pompey line though!

 

[swt_passenger]

So.... not April's Fool then?

Weymouth also sees the odd 450, I took one during strike action 2-3 years ago.

Wouldn't be surprised to see 458s heading west from Poole especially during engineering works or strike action when the service is operating as a Bournemouth-Weymouth shuttle, requiring a change at Bournemouth for Waterloo services.

They probably would also operate 450 assigned services like Southampton-Portsmouth even go down the Lymington branch line too.

The numbers being retained (28) fit the requirement for the Portsmouth services that would have been 442s. So any use to Weymouth or Poole is probably just the typical forum wishful thinking...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They probably would also operate 450 assigned services like Southampton-Portsmouth even go down the Lymington branch line too.

Big waste of a newly refurbished train with long distance layout, don’t you think?

 

[221101 Voyager]

Can 458s even run as triples? I don’t remember seeing them ever do so as 458/0s

Don't know if they can run as triples.

However, a check of the sectional appendix shows 458s are cleared between Dorchester Jn and Weymouth. Not found other parts of the route yet although I'd assume they should be able to go down there just fine.

 

[Monty]

Don't know if they can run as triples.

However, a check of the sectional appendix shows 458s are cleared between Dorchester Jn and Weymouth. Not found other parts of the route yet although I'd assume they should be able to go down there just fine.

In the early days there used to be a number of Alton and Basingstoke turns where they operated as 12 car formations.

 

[221101 Voyager]

In the early days there used to be a number of Alton and Basingstoke turns where they operated as 12 car formations.

Ah ok, I suppose we shall just wait and see what formations and services they use them on once we see them in service.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

A 707 did operate all the way to Southampton in ununusal circumstances so it wouldn't be out of the blue if a 458 popped up at Lymington Town, whatever goes depending on the situation at the time. Sneer all you like...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Big waste of a newly refurbished train with long distance layout, don’t you think?

Like St Albans, you just use whatever is spare.

 

[jopsuk]

if it's just 28 being retained, is that likely the end for 458531-6, and as such the very end for the Class 460?

 

[slicedbread]

I wonder which carriage will be going then?

I guess if they keep the 2 with toilets it's the one with motors that would be going. Which I think would be similar to the original 458/0

 

[Helvellyn]

I wonder which carriage will be going then?

I guess if they keep the 2 with toilets it's the one with motors that would be going. Which I think would be similar to the original 458/0

Logic would suggest the ex-460 trailer. If it is 28 units it will be 458501-458530 reduced to four cars and two units withdrawn from that original 458 batch. First Class will be behind the cabs, twelve seats in each section, which gives 72 first class seats in a 12-car 458, same as in a 10-car 442.

 

[Snow1964]

I would probably agree. You'd need to run 8 onwards to Weymouth really, as 4 is rarely enough for anything on former NSE. And the end door trains are probably more suited to the longer journey.

In the days of the REPs and 4TCs it was 4car in winter months and 8car in summer to Weymouth.
Could use 458s in similar seasonal variation, or day of week or time of day. Gives more flexibility that dividing a 2x5car train. I suspect that usage and loads will not be consistent Mon-Fri going forward.

 

[DorkingMain]

The numbers being retained (28) fit the requirement for the Portsmouth services that would have been 442s. So any use to Weymouth or Poole is probably just the typical forum wishful thinking...

The 442s went to Poole. Power restriction only applies beyond there.

 

[slicedbread]

Logic would suggest the ex-460 trailer. If it is 28 units it will be 458501-458530 reduced to four cars and two units withdrawn from that original 458 batch

I would think that would please all those who like a matching window on their trains

 

[swt_passenger]

The 442s went to Poole. Power restriction only applies beyond there.

Yes they did, but I think that was understood to be a positioning move to/from the depot - the purpose of the 442s was not to serve Poole all day...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In the days of the REPs and 4TCs it was 4car in winter months and 8car in summer to Weymouth.
Could use 458s in similar seasonal variation, or day of week or time of day. Gives more flexibility that dividing a 2x5car train. I suspect that usage and loads will not be consistent Mon-Fri going forward.

Not without a power upgrade as 4 car 458 would have the same amount of traction equipment as a 4 car 450. Extract from the Sectional Appendix:

Electric trains are restricted between Poole and Weymouth as follows, the maximum train lengths for the line are:-
4 car class 450
5 car class 444

Additionally only one Class 73 locomotive on electric traction may operate between Poole and Weymouth at any time.

Any alteration to this instruction will be made by direct request from the WICC to the Eastleigh ECRO, who will, if conditions permit, grant authority for the movement.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes they did, but I think that was understood to be a positioning move to/from the depot - the purpose of the 442s was not to serve Poole all day...

The 1995 timetable shows that the two primary services from Waterloo were xx35 '91' to Weymouth and xx48 '92' to Poole. I think that both were 442s. I think something like 21 of 24 were diagrammed at one point. Maybe I have misunderstood and you were describing 442s in their post-BML days.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 1995 timetable shows that the two primary services from Waterloo were xx35 '91' to Weymouth and xx48 '92' to Poole. I think that both were 442s. I think something like 21 of 24 were diagrammed at one point.

I was hoping people would understand I was on about last year’s ill fated timetables for the most recent 442 plans, not 1995

 

[bramling]

Like St Albans, you just use whatever is spare.

Lymington will be an operational choice. If there’s more operational benefit in using a unit from Bournemouth depot and if crew knowledge allows it, then it would happen. Same with 458s to Poole or even beyond. If the units are going to be based at Bournemouth then they will have to get from/to there one way or another, which in some cases could mean going via Poole. Any occasional visit to Weymouth would depend entirely on crew knowledge.

Electric trains are restricted between Poole and Weymouth as follows, the maximum train lengths for the line are:-
4 car class 450
5 car class 444

Additionally only one Class 73 locomotive on electric traction may operate between Poole and Weymouth at any time.

Any alteration to this instruction will be made by direct request from the WICC to the Eastleigh ECRO, who will, if conditions permit, grant authority for the movement.

Presumably this will be the usual situation that the ECR will allow the move so long as all the electrification infrastructure is in full working order. Hence why a move can be allowed fairly easily, but not *planned* as a routine thing as this would have to allow for plant to be off line for maintenance.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wonder which carriage will be going then?

I guess if they keep the 2 with toilets it's the one with motors that would be going. Which I think would be similar to the original 458/0

Nope. That would make the units underpowered and leave them with just one toilet!

Simply dump the ex 460 trailers, which have no toilets.

 

[43096]

Logic would suggest the ex-460 trailer. If it is 28 units it will be 458501-458530 reduced to four cars and two units withdrawn from that original 458 batch. First Class will be behind the cabs, twelve seats in each section, which gives 72 first class seats in a 12-car 458, same as in a 10-car 442.

Agreed. The ex-460 trailer will be the one to go as of the other two centre cars one has traction motors and a toilet and the other is the trailer with PRM toilet and wheelchair spaces.

 

[DorkingMain]

Yes they did, but I think that was understood to be a positioning move to/from the depot - the purpose of the 442s was not to serve Poole all day...

10 car 444s have served Poole regularly in the past when they did 1B stoppers. There's nothing to stop a 12 car 458 set doing the same.

The May timetable will have 1tph to Weymouth (back five detach Bournemouth) and 1tph to Poole fast. No reason the Poole fast couldn't be a 12 car 458.

No reason the back 4 couldn't detach off a 458 at Bournemouth either. The restriction only applies to 9x444/450, 10x444 or 12x450

 

[Aictos]

Surely the only reason why the 458s are not mentioned in any restrictions is simply because they're A. Not cleared for the route or B. They've never had need to operate those routes.

 

[slicedbread]

Agreed. The ex-460 trailer will be the one to go as of the other two centre cars one has traction motors and a toilet and the other is the trailer with PRM toilet and wheelchair spaces.

I made the classic mistake of looking at Wikipedia for information.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[pompeyfan]

Just a thought but could they become the mainstay of the 1Txx service group? Most journeys are not end to end and I believe currently the diagrams are self contained. There’s also not the demand for quite as many seats or passenger comforts. I’m not sure how many units are required for the service group.

 

[southern442]

If they will be based at Bournemouth then it is likely we may see a few early morning or late evening 458 Bournemouth services at least.

 

[swt_passenger]

If they will be based at Bournemouth then it is likely we may see a few early morning or late evening 458 Bournemouth services at least.

That’s why I think they’ll just be positioning moves - as was intended for the 442s up until last year. Any major use on the Weymouth line, Lymington , or Portsmouth - Southampton stoppers etc, is the usual speculation. I sometimes wonder why we can’t just wait?

 

[southern442]

That’s why I think they’ll just be positioning moves - as was intended for the 442s up until last year. Any major use on the Weymouth line, Lymington , or Portsmouth - Southampton stoppers etc, is the usual speculation. I sometimes wonder why we can’t just wait?

Very true
Also we shouldn't forget that any use of 458s on branch lines etc would just mean more chance of 450s ending up on services where everyone would rather they wouldn't be.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Just a thought but could they become the mainstay of the 1Txx service group? Most journeys are not end to end and I believe currently the diagrams are self contained. There’s also not the demand for quite as many seats or passenger comforts. I’m not sure how many units are required for the service group.

As the intention is to replace the 442s on Portsmouth Fast services and provide 2+2 seating on the 1Ps you would expect utilisation to be similar as was planned for the 442s.

No reason the back 4 couldn't detach off a 458 at Bournemouth either. The restriction only applies to 9x444/450, 10x444 or 12x450

Incorrect - I posted the restriction out the sectional appendix earlier today. It is no more than a single 444 or 450 permitted west of Poole there is no reason to expect a 458 would thus be allowed to be planned in multiple.

Whilst 8 car 450s had previously run to Weymouth in limited numbers that is no longer allowed in the 2014 sectional appendix update.