SWR Class 458 to be retained

[southern442]

When I was a naïve young teen, I went onto this forum and suggested instead of converting the 458s, they should get them to run Portsmouth services instead. Everyone laughed at me, but nobody's laughing now...

I'm really glad they have a confirmed future as they are some of my favourite trains, as were the 442s but this was doomed from the start and they are fast approaching what would be considered a good, long life for EMUs anyway.

bit tongue in cheek but can we get the 460s back while we're at it?

Wouldn't that be amazing Southern could have them work Brighton fasts!

 

[pigs bay]

I thought the whole point was to keep the 458's as 5car units. It begs belief if SWR are even competent enough to operate the services.

 

[bramling]

I thought the whole point was to keep the 458's as 5car units. It begs belief if SWR are even competent enough to operate the services.

I can’t see how they could be kept as 5-car, as you’d then only have 10-car on the Portsmouth line. This might be okay at the moment, but it wouldn’t be in the future, and there wouldn’t be any way to upsize again if a proportion of units were scrapped now whilst the remainder were kept as 5s. Reduction to 4-car is absolutely the best course of action.

 

[southern442]

I thought the whole point was to keep the 458's as 5car units. It begs belief if SWR are even competent enough to operate the services.

If they were to remain on suburban work, yes. But for longer distances 12 cars are needed.

 

[Goldfish62]

I thought the whole point was to keep the 458's as 5car units. It begs belief if SWR are even competent enough to operate the services.

They can't be kept as 5-car units because they'd have to remain at 75mph units. Now THAT would be incompetent.

It's likely that if SWR didn't retain them they'd have gone for scrap.

 

[rdlover777]

When I was a naïve young teen, I went onto this forum and suggested instead of converting the 458s, they should get them to run Portsmouth services instead. Everyone laughed at me, but nobody's laughing now...

I'm really glad they have a confirmed future as they are some of my favourite trains, as were the 442s but this was doomed from the start and they are fast approaching what would be considered a good, long life for EMUs anyway.



Wouldn't that be amazing Southern could have them work Brighton fasts!

Yeah! Use them on the longer Southern routes like London Bridge to Brighton perhaps, but convert the luggage van into a normal DMSO

 

[D365]

They can't be kept as 5-car units because they'd have to remain at 75mph units. Now THAT would be incompetent.

It's likely that if SWR didn't retain them they'd have gone for scrap.

Exactly. One assumes that SWR received a very good offer from Porterbrook in order to replace Angel’s (similarly third-rail only) 442s

 

[Chiltern006]

will be nice seeing 458s in blue and grey, and with new interiors.anyone know if they get refurbed to 444 spec?

 

[WarrenTManager]

Yeah, I'd imagine so. At least door controls to allow opening if not already installed. Not sure if the cab layout would allow installation of monitors for door cameras though.

334s have door cameras, how is it set up in the cabs on those

 

[Flange Squeal]

334s have door cameras, how is it set up in the cabs on those

The 334s have wider wraparound desks with the camera monitors mounted on top, which isn't possible on the narrower 458 desks due to the units having the gangway connection in the middle.

334: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pgcc/1236069138

458: https://www.flickr.com/photos/catsmad/14222259315/

 

[John R]

Not if they want to retain 36 sets. Seriously why not return 1-30 to original 4 car formation then make the others (made up of the old 460 vehicles) up to six x 10 car trains, possibly for dedicated diagrams. Understand this is part logic, part OCD but saves losing vehicles which are only twenty or so years old so only at half life.

DfT won't care. They will be looking every way possible to reduce fleet costs, with the prospect of a long term drop in commuter traffic. I don't really blame them. So any fleet/unit where there isn't a long term leasing agreement in place (or a Section 54 deal) will be looked at very carefully. If some juggling around of resources is needed, it is in a much easier position to do so than when it had to negotiate with franchise holders. What odds the Coastway 313s are next?

It's then up to the owner to decide whether to keep them for a rainy day, repurpose them (if possible) or convert them into razor blades. The govt isn't going to shed any tears about any loss there.

Although longer distance traffic is likely to see a lower long term impact than commuter, it's still likely to take several years to recover. So I would have thought they are also looking at all the Voyagers that will be coming surplus to requirements or lease renewal in a couple of years. Their woeful capacity makes them a hugely expensive proposition for a conventional cascade, so I'd speculate that some of those could find themselves left standing when the music stops. That's probably for a separate thread though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah, I took de-rate to mean physically altering the motors rather than current limiting through software. I agree, and severely doubt that desiros do draw the full 2MW on DC. I would hope though that they could be dynamically limited based on how long the train is rather than a flat rate so to speak - no need to permanently 'cripple' the fleet for the occasional 12 car working if they're mostly whizzing around in pairs

The Desiros are fairly seriously derated by software, about 70% max on a 444, or something like that. In fact someone posted the exact % figures a couple of years ago, (although I wouldn’t know where to start finding it again), but the end result is supposed to be that a 12 car 450 and 10 car 444 should have similar performance.

 

[RealTrains07]

I wonder how long it will be until the class 458 and SWR wikipedia pages will be updated now that the 458s wont be technically replaced but instead displaced.

 

[Gellico]

As long as they get a decent interior overhaul and more reliable bogs I am not fussed. Tables are far more appealing to the leisure punters, give a better feeling of value for money and are essential for working on the go - which is something the railway is certainly going to have to claw back at. People scram for the ends of 700s just to get their laptops out so I imagine this attitude is no different on other networks. Passengers/Customers cannot be taken for granted, something the transport sector seemingly forgets all to often.

 

[Helvellyn]

Junipers 2 - Plastic Pigs 0 - They saw off the 442s when Stagecoach retained the SWT franchise in 2007 and fourteen years later they see off the 442s again.

To be honest as much as I loved the 442s the 458s will do a good job once refurbished. I wouldn't be surprised if it's just the original 30 retained and all the ex-460 vehicles get scrapped. It simplifies spares (no ribbon glazing to deal with), the emergency hopper ventilators are a useful get out of jail, and 18x442s (9 10-cars) versus 30x458s (10 12-cars) gives them a fleet for the fast Portsmouth services, but with the benefit that off-peak/weekends they could run as 8-cars if required because they can easily be split/joined without needing a shunter.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Isn't this April Fools?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Isn't this April Fools?

If it is, the culprit might have had the class to wait until the correct day so as to not cause immense confusion unnecessarily

 

[Mikey C]

Junipers 2 - Plastic Pigs 0 - They saw off the 442s when Stagecoach retained the SWT franchise in 2007 and fourteen years later they see off the 442s again.

To be honest as much as I loved the 442s the 458s will do a good job once refurbished. I wouldn't be surprised if it's just the original 30 retained and all the ex-460 vehicles get scrapped. It simplifies spares (no ribbon glazing to deal with), the emergency hopper ventilators are a useful get out of jail, and 18x442s (9 10-cars) versus 30x458s (10 12-cars) gives them a fleet for the fast Portsmouth services, but with the benefit that off-peak/weekends they could run as 8-cars if required because they can easily be split/joined without needing a shunter.

Such are the tos and fros of the railway, that the 442s rejected by SWT then replaced Junipers (460s) on the Gatwick Express (which went to SWT to be merged with the 458s), which were in turn replaced by 387s

Now the Junipers will replace the 442s on SWR, while the GatEx 387s will go north of the river to replace the Great Northern 365s...

 

[superalbs]

Such are the tos and fros of the railway, that the 442s rejected by SWT then replaced Junipers (460s) on the Gatwick Express (which went to SWT to be merged with the 458s), which were in turn replaced by 387s

Now the Junipers will replace the 442s on SWR, while the GatEx 387s will go north of the river to replace the Great Northern 365s...

And then the 442s go to TPE to replace...

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Well, we have been waiting long enough....

 

[Goldfish62]

Passengers/Customers cannot be taken for granted, something the transport sector seemingly forgets all to often.

The bus industry has generally got that point in recent years, but rail definitely not.

 

[Snow1964]

Not if they want to retain 36 sets. Seriously why not return 1-30 to original 4 car formation then make the others (made up of the old 460 vehicles) up to six x 10 car trains, possibly for dedicated diagrams. Understand this is part logic, part OCD but saves losing vehicles which are only twenty or so years old so only at half life.

Actually a small number of 3 car sets would be sufficient for some services. Although being non standard might be deemed more trouble than the saving.

There were some lines where a 2HAP was sufficient in 1980s (or the 3H demu before Solent lines were electrified). Thinking about it the demu were nearer 2.6 cars for passengers.

Of course there is some irony in converting the 458s to 4 cars, and that is because part of the original desiro order had 5 car 450s, before it was altered from 100 to 110 four car units (which later got changed again to 127 four car, and no five car 450s)

 

[Dan15812]

What they should have done, would be to order more 701's to replace some of the 450's of the suburban routes.

The 450/5's or a small number of 450's should have been refurbished with 2+2 seating like the 444's and 350/1 and /3.

Then there would no need for all this wasted money on the 442's and now the 458's!

 

[43096]

Of course there is some irony in converting the 458s to 4 cars, and that is because part of the original desiro order had 5 car 450s, before it was altered from 100 to 110 four car units (which later got changed again to 127 four car, and no five car 450s)

The original 450 order was 100 x 4-car and 32 x 5-car. The order for 5-car sets was heavily modified and were delivered as 4-cars as 450101-110 and 350101-130.

 

[Energy]

What they should have done, would be to order more 701's to replace some of the 450's of the suburban routes.

The 450/5's or a small number of 450's should have been refurbished with 2+2 seating like the 444's and 350/1 and /3.

Then there would no need for all this wasted money on the 442's and now the 458's!

How many 450s are on metro routes? I thought the majority got cascaded by the 458 project to replace the 442s in 2007.

 

[Dan15812]

How many 450s are on metro routes? I thought the majority got cascaded by the 458 project to replace the 442s in 2007.

From my experience you'd be surprised how many there are, often seen on the Reading lines and on services to Weybridge!

 

[Wolfie]

Well they say refurbished for longer distance use so assuming the refurbishment gives 2+2, (can't recall what they are now) then I'd imagine they'll end up pretty much in 442 diagrams and in use on Pompey direct as well as mainline.

I thought that some on here said that the 458s were absolutely knackered? Are the 442s and 458s owned by the same ROSCO? What's the betting that the new seats fitted in the 442s end up in the 458s?

 

[swt_passenger]

Railway Gazette has been quoted elsewhere as saying only 28 units will be retained. (Can’t quote article as registration required.)

 

[Wolfie]

I'm guessing that's the only reason, but the 444 and 442 are/ were all 5s.

As l understand it the 444 and 442s are 23m carriages but the 458s are 20m.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2021 ==

Disappointed with this, on the face of it poor fare compared with the 442s. I imagine Ian Walmsley of Modern Railways won't be able to conceal a smile today though.

The 442s should have been scrapped before the half-assed attempt to reuse them ever started.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2021 ==

I'd imagine the interior layout would be similar to that of the Class 334s, which do just fine with armrests (just no tables!).

The seats could possibly remain the same as they are very comfy imo.

Seat comfort is subjective. I find those currently in the 458s truly awful.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Now that it is the afternoon, can I just confirm this is real and wasn’t an April Fool started early? You have to admit it does sound a little strange...