SWR Class 458 to be retained

[43096]

And the small issue of being restricted to 75mph in 5-car form.

The number of cars isn’t related to the gearing/maximum speed; it just happens 5-car/75mph is optimal for their current duties.

 

[TEW]

5 cars made it to Fratton regularly for door mods, and 10 cars have called at every station as part of ASDO calibration.

A 10-car has run in service to Haslemere at least once too.

458535+458536

458535+458536 at the very unusual location of Haslemere having worked 2P65, 2015 from London Waterloo.

flic.kr

 

[dingdinger]

Something which won’t be possible on the Portsmouth Direct anyway due to the whole series of short platforms requiring passengers to often move through the train.

If more saloon Gops are installed then it would be possible to keep them open. Also if they are 4 coach units what is the shortest platform on the route?
On the 458 current routes the shortest platform length is 6 coaches which means any passengers in the rear unit can still get off the train.

 

[Goldfish62]

If more saloon Gops are installed then it would be possible to keep them open. Also if they are 4 coach units what is the shortest platform on the route?
On the 458 current routes the shortest platform length is 6 coaches which means any passengers in the rear unit can still get off the train.

There is currently just one saloon guard's panel on the 458s, which has always been present, but was only activated as part of the 5-car project. As I understand it the DfT wanted the 5-car project done at minimal cost hence others weren't fitted (and hence why cosmetic interior work was minimal). I wouldn't hold out for them being fitted this time round either.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If more saloon Gops are installed then it would be possible to keep them open. Also if they are 4 coach units what is the shortest platform on the route?
On the 458 current routes the shortest platform length is 6 coaches which means any passengers in the rear unit can still get off the train.

Shortest platform is 6 cars of 20m stock (but most are 8 cars) on the Portsmouth Line so it’s the rear unit that’s the problem as that’s where passengers need to move forward from coaches 9-12 into the front two sets.

Those cabs between coaches 8 and 9 logically would be the guard would want to dispatch from - wasn’t one of the arguments against DOO is the guard should watch the train along as much as possible of the platform as it departs so having them between coaches 4 and 5 would negate this as they would be ahead of the platform dispatcher in most cases so wouldn’t see any raised arms for emergency stop?

 

[dingdinger]

Shortest platform is 6 cars of 20m stock (but most are 8 cars) on the Portsmouth Line so it’s the rear unit that’s the problem as that’s where passengers need to move forward from coaches 9-12 into the front two sets.

Those cabs between coaches 8 and 9 logically would be the guard would want to dispatch from - wasn’t one of the arguments against DOO is the guard should watch the train along as much as possible of the platform as it departs so having them between coaches 4 and 5 would negate this as they would be ahead of the platform dispatcher in most cases so wouldn’t see any raised arms for emergency stop?

If the platform is 8 coaches long then I doubt the guard would be dispatching from the rear cab of the 8th coach.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If the platform is 8 coaches long then I doubt the guard would be dispatching from the rear cab of the 8th coach.

Most platforms at 12 so you would be expecting them to dispatch from rear of coach 8 not rear of coach 4.

hopefully will be solved by having more guards panels

 

[dingdinger]

Most platforms at 12 so you would be expecting them to dispatch from rear of coach 8 not rear of coach 4.

hopefully will be solved by having more guards panels

They could do with a bit of work to be honest. Been neglected for a while. Also only have pa handsets in cabs and pis system isn't the best.

 

[Goldfish62]

They could do with a bit of work to be honest. Been neglected for a while. Also only have pa handsets in cabs and pis system isn't the best.

Yes, they really do need an upgraded PIS otherwise passengers are going to have to get used to being told they're at Guildford when they're actually at Haslemere.

 

[DunfordBridge]

Shortest platform is 6 cars of 20m stock (but most are 8 cars) on the Portsmouth Line so it’s the rear unit that’s the problem as that’s where passengers need to move forward from coaches 9-12 into the front two sets.

Those cabs between coaches 8 and 9 logically would be the guard would want to dispatch from - wasn’t one of the arguments against DOO is the guard should watch the train along as much as possible of the platform as it departs so having them between coaches 4 and 5 would negate this as they would be ahead of the platform dispatcher in most cases so wouldn’t see any raised arms for emergency stop?

As the class 458s are going to be re-geared for 100mph operation again, it suggests to me that the trains will be used on the semi-fast services where the stops will be at platforms which can accommodate 12 carriages, Fratton being the possible exception.

If the guard despatches from a cab, rather than from a set of the doors in the passenger saloon, he does have the advantage of having a clear view of the platform in both directions. I seem to remember that the longer platforms are generally straight platforms too.

 

[dingdinger]

Yes, they really do need an upgraded PIS otherwise passengers are going to have to get used to being told they're at Guildford when they're actually at Haslemere.

Yes that is a pain and tends to happen where there is only a minute or two between stations. E.g. the Winnersh stations or syon lane/Isleworth. The system plays each message over the screen twice and if there is a short platform the message is longer meaning its still playing the message whilst pulling into the station. If a guard picks up the handset before the message then the message won't play until the guard replaces the handset. Something I do to mitigate the issue (as long as the service is on time) is to wait for the system to finish its message and wait for it to announce where it is before closing the doors, that way it stays in sync.

 

[RealTrains07]

Logic would suggest the ex-460 trailer. If it is 28 units it will be 458501-458530 reduced to four cars and two units withdrawn from that original 458 batch. First Class will be behind the cabs, twelve seats in each section, which gives 72 first class seats in a 12-car 458, same as in a 10-car 442.

Seems a bit of a waste not keeping 529 and 530.

you can either use them as spares or make an extra 8 car?

 

[Sean Emmett]

On the 458 current routes the shortest platform length is 6 coaches which means any passengers in the rear unit can still get off the train.

The Farnham - Ascot - Waterloo peak extras were usually 2 x 458, calling at Frimley & Bagshot - with their 4 car platforms.

The evening peak returns routed via Hounslow tended to be 2 x 450.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I seem to remember that the longer platforms are generally straight platforms too.

Not on the Portsmouth direct, only Havant, Petersfield, Liphook, Milford, Guildford and Woking are straight enough to dispatch from wherever you want to.

 

[317 forever]

It would be good if they could utilise the carpet from the 442s somehow, provided by Axminster iirc.

Imagine they could find a way of stitching bits together where required.

They may be refurbished with Axminster carpet. It's just a pity they could not serve Axminster as that line has not been electrified.

Although the 444s do long-distance journeys. this means that on the whole older SWR stock will do longer journeys than the newer stock.

 

[fgwrich]

They may be refurbished with Axminster carpet. It's just a pity they could not serve Axminster as that line has not been electrified.

Although the 444s do long-distance journeys. this means that on the whole older SWR stock will do longer journeys than the newer stock.

At least First Group will be doing their best to keep Axminster carpets again (They supply a lot to the FG Franchises, as does Treadmaster in Liskeard).

I'm less keen on the idea of re-using the Chapmans from the 442s in the Junipers though I'm not sure what seats are worse, the hacked about Juniper seats or the Chapmans, used in anything from the Pacers to Electrostars to Sprinters and unfortunately the Gat Ex 442s.

 

[antharro]

I found the "refurb" seats in the 442s to be entirely unpleasant, especially compared with what went before. I also dislike the seats in the 458s, but less than I dislike the 442 seats!

 

[Goldfish62]

I found the "refurb" seats in the 442s to be entirely unpleasant, especially compared with what went before. I also dislike the seats in the 458s, but less than I dislike the 442 seats!

The seats in the 442s are exactly the same ones that they had in GatEx days. They're standard Chapman seats, as fitted extensively in new and refurbished stock from the late 90s onwards.

The 458 seats (from Compin) are OK for short journeys, but they're mushy and lack support thus when the foam collapses you end up sat on the seat frame. They're also very easy to vandalise.

 

[urpert]

For completeness, the original Class 442 seats were the same as those used in the first class compartments of Class 321, shown on this page:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_Anglia_321_First_Class_Interior.jpg

I haven't been on a 321 for a while so I don't know if they are still there!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

For completeness, the original Class 442 seats were the same as those used in the first class compartments of Class 321, shown on this page:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_Anglia_321_First_Class_Interior.jpg

I haven't been on a 321 for a while so I don't know if they are still there!

And towards the end of their time on SWT after 20 years the seats were coming somewhat uncomfortable and broken so did need replacing.

 

[py_megapixel]

I'm assuming they'll need a pretty comprehensive interior refurb before they can be put on services that long.

Given the frequent complaints about the reliability of the toilets on these units I wonder if they might just go the route of ripping them out and installing new modules, like on the Sprinters. (Though I did read that the manufacturer of those went bust a year or two ago, so they would presumably have to find a different supplier).

 

[DelW]

The seats in the 442s are exactly the same ones that they had in GatEx days. They're standard Chapman seats, as fitted extensively in new and refurbished stock from the late 90s onwards.

The 458 seats (from Compin) are OK for short journeys, but they're mushy and lack support thus when the foam collapses you end up sat on the seat frame. They're also very easy to vandalise.

The 442 seats are at least already in SWR colours, so they've been re-covered if not necessarily reupholstered. I assume the 458 seats are still in SWT red moquette.

 

[py_megapixel]

The 442 seats are at least already in SWR colours, so they've been re-covered if not necessarily reupholstered. I assume the 458 seats are still in SWT red moquette.

From what I've seen mentioned in other threads SWR have been neglecting the 458s somewhat; all they've had is some stickers on the outside and basic maintenance and cleaning, so the seat covers are not only in the old moquette but also rather tatty.

 

[Goldfish62]

From what I've seen mentioned in other threads SWR have been neglecting the 458s somewhat; all they've had is some stickers on the outside and basic maintenance and cleaning, so the seat covers are not only in the old moquette but also rather tatty.

And as I've mentioned in other threads I think they're in better condition now than they were under SWT. They're actually cleaned internally and SWR has made an effort to get the toilets working again after SWT gave up on them.

The seat moquette was last replaced around ten years ago so it's no surprise it's getting worn.

Given that the trains should have gone off lease by now I'm not sure what else SWR should have done with them.

 

[py_megapixel]

And as I've mentioned in other threads I think they're in better condition now than they were under SWT. They're actually cleaned internally and SWR has made an effort to get the toilets working again after SWT gave up on them.

The seat moquette was last replaced around ten years ago so it's no surprise it's getting worn.

Given that the trains should have gone off lease by now I'm not sure what else SWR should have done with them.

I wasn't trying to imply that SWR had done anything wrong with them; more that now circumstances have changed, they will need some work.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wasn't trying to imply that SWR had done anything wrong with them; more that now circumstances have changed, they will need some work.

Yes, I agree on that point, but they haven't neglected them, at least cosmetically.

 

[Aictos]

They could do with a bit of work to be honest. Been neglected for a while. Also only have pa handsets in cabs and pis system isn't the best.

I'm open to being corrected but was there not a EMU fleet that had a refurbishment that put GOP panels in the vestibules with the intention that the guard could dispatch from any vestibule and do more revenue duties then return to the rear cab every time?

As that was already done, I can't see why it he difficult to fit a GOP panel per 1 vestibule per 1 coach so the guard is never far from one so they can do more revenue duties rather then having to keep retreating into the cab.

 

[Helvellyn]

I wouldn't be surprised if the 458s receive the same standard class seats that will end up in the 158s/159s when they get refurbished, with First Class getting the same as the Class 444s.

 

[dingdinger]

I'm open to being corrected but was there not a EMU fleet that had a refurbishment that put GOP panels in the vestibules with the intention that the guard could dispatch from any vestibule and do more revenue duties then return to the rear cab every time?

As that was already done, I can't see why it he difficult to fit a GOP panel per 1 vestibule per 1 coach so the guard is never far from one so they can do more revenue duties rather then having to keep retreating into the cab.

450s have GOPs at every set of doors, 444 at every door in the vestibule area. Then 455/456/707 have GOPs at every other other door except there isn't any GOPs in the 508 coach of a 455. The 458s have GOPs in cab plus one without a pa/cab to cab in the middle coach as previous poster mentioned.

Think the 455 GOPs were retro fitted and may be what youre referring to?

 

[Aictos]

450s have GOPs at every set of doors, 444 at every door in the vestibule area. Then 455/456/707 have GOPs at every other other door except there isn't any GOPs in the 508 coach of a 455. The 458s have GOPs in cab plus one without a pa/cab to cab in the middle coach as previous poster mentioned.

Think the 455 GOPs were retro fitted and may be what youre referring to?

No definitely not the Class 455s, I'm sure the Class 319s when they went to Northern had the work but I can't say for sure.