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Siemens for Eurostar

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Today's Financial Times is reporting that Eurostar has named Siemens as its preferred bidder for some new trains. Does anybody know anything about this?

I didn't even know that Eurostar was in the running for new trains, and I'm supposed to know about these things!

I don't even recollect seeing a European tender notice, which I would have thought would be necessary, given the state involvement, particularly on the French side.
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Forgot the link to the article. Here it is.
 
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starrymarkb

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Today's Financial Times is reporting that Eurostar has named Siemens as its preferred bidder for some new trains. Does anybody know anything about this?

I didn't even know that Eurostar was in the running for new trains, and I'm supposed to know about these things!

I don't even recollect seeing a European tender notice, which I would have thought would be necessary, given the state involvement, particularly on the French side.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Forgot the link to the article. Here it is.

Could you paste - the FT won't let you in unless you are a subscriber
 
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Could you paste - the FT won't let you in unless you are a subscriber

OK, but the FT is a bit sniffy about people pasting.

The French authorities have been accused of trying to block the first-ever order by an affiliate of SNCF, France’s national train operator, for non-French high-speed trains, after Eurostar named Germany’s Siemens preferred bidder for a new train fleet.

The board of Eurostar, the cross-Channel high-speed train operator which SNCF controls, will meet on Friday afternoon to decide whether to go ahead, despite France’s opposition to the order, worth more than €600m.

SNCF and its international joint ventures – which include Eurostar and Thalys, which runs from Paris to Brussels, Cologne and Amsterdam – always previously ordered high-speed trains from Alstom, widely seen in France as a national champion. Alstom builds SNCF’s flagship 300kph TGV trains.

Eurostar selected the Velaro-D, the latest version of Germany’s ICE high-speed train family, over Alstom’s AGV, as its preferred option in June.

The Velaro-D and AGV are now seen as Europe’s leading competitors for large high-speed train orders. SNCF has a record of buying trains built by non-French companies, including Canada’s Bombardier, but previous orders have all been built at the contractors’ French factories.

Two of the parties involved told the Financial Times that French authorities were exerting pressure for a reversal of recent changes in the Channel tunnel’s safety rules that open up use of the tunnel for the first time to the new trains. Both believed it reflected official frustration that Eurostar had opted for the German product.

None of the parties involved would comment publicly ahead of the board meeting, scheduled for 3pm in London.

Nicolas Sarkozy, France’s president, has regularly expressed his pride in his pivotal role, when economy minister, in arranging a state-backed rescue for Alstom when it was in danger of collapse in 2004. When Alstom unveiled the AGV in 2008, Mr Sarkozy attended and used the occasion to question the right of Alstom’s competitors to sell trains in France.

The two parties both said the French government was vowing to prevent the use of the Channel tunnel by any train with “distributed traction”, where electrical equipment is hidden under the floor and the motors are distributed throughout the train. Until earlier this year, the tunnel safety rules said all trains using the tunnel needed to have all their electrical equipment and motors concentrated in power cars at either end – the arrangement on Eurostar’s existing trains, built in the early 1990s.

The AGV also uses distributed traction.

“What they are saying is that they will not endorse trains with distributed traction going through the tunnel,” one person familiar with Eurostar’s position said of the French authorities’ position.

If Eurostar goes ahead with the Velaro-D order, it will mean Eurostar is using almost the same train as Deutsche Bahn plans to use on services between Frankfurt and London, likely to start in 2013. Eurostar plans, however, to order trains 400m long to satisfy rules about passenger access to emergency escape tunnels in a tunnel fire. DB is trying to persuade the tunnel authorities to accept it would be safe to use two 200m-long trains coupled together.

Alstom did not immediately wish to comment.
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Here's another link, in RGI.
 

YorkshireBear

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Why they kicking up such a fuss i dont see problem? alstom have enough business don't they?
 

anthony263

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Aren't the new trains That DB want to use for the Frankfurt to London service also built by Seimens and are part of the Velaro-D, range?
 

EWS 58038

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Why they kicking up such a fuss i dont see problem? alstom have enough business don't they?

Because they are French and can't live with the fact that their equipment is less reliable and more expansive. Furthermore... everything non-french is almost forbidden in that country... The word "computer" was forbidden to be used untill three years ago.

And Germany... That is a country that did nasty things in France some 60 years ago. No today's business man or politician was there when it happened, but believe me... French hate everyone not from France and hate everything not made by French hands.

They also run a 100% state owned railway and it's closed to any foreign operator.

A few years ago the first ICE3 test runs on the LGV network was conducted during the night to make sure press wasn't aware.
 

route:oxford

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DB is trying to persuade the tunnel authorities to accept it would be safe to use two 200m-long trains coupled together.

I always understood that the "Eurostars" were built as two separate trains that could be split apart in case of an emergency in the tunnel. Sounds like they just need to build sets with a corridor connection at one end...

Also... If a formation has to be 400m long, why were the NoL sets built only 320m long?
 

starrymarkb

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I always understood that the "Eurostars" were built as two separate trains that could be split apart in case of an emergency in the tunnel. Sounds like they just need to build sets with a corridor connection at one end...

Also... If a formation has to be 400m long, why were the NoL sets built only 320m long?

The split requirement was withdrawn when it was found to be quicker to evacuate then to transfer the pax and divide (transfering took 18 mins in testing, in the fires the OHLE gave out in less time)
 

91101

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To be fair, operationally there is a lot of co-operation between DB and SNCF, they jointly crew the TGV Lyria and DB Internationals on the LGV Est.
 

ukrob

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Sorry.... Eurostar... New trains??

I thought they were not planning fleet renewal until after 2025.

Are they all of a sudden short on trainsets, or envisage huge growth or something?
 

A60K

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Sorry.... Eurostar... New trains??

I thought they were not planning fleet renewal until after 2025.

Are they all of a sudden short on trainsets, or envisage huge growth or something?
It's because there is no practical way of adding more signalling safety equipment and power systems to the current stock, which will be necessary for running into Germany or the Netherlands. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if, once the new stock is in service, some of the existing Three Capitals stock follows the NoL stock onto French domestic services.
 

Goldfish62

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It's because there is no practical way of adding more signalling safety equipment and power systems to the current stock, which will be necessary for running into Germany or the Netherlands. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if, once the new stock is in service, some of the existing Three Capitals stock follows the NoL stock onto French domestic services.

I'd like to see some of them used on UK domestic services, albeit with less coaches, like some of the NoL units did a few years ago. Now that the whole of HS1 is to UIC gauge the 373s seem rather cramped compared the likes of TGVs and ICEs. Just look at the large gap between train and platform at St Pancras.
 

O L Leigh

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I always understood that the "Eurostars" were built as two separate trains that could be split apart in case of an emergency in the tunnel. Sounds like they just need to build sets with a corridor connection at one end...

Also... If a formation has to be 400m long, why were the NoL sets built only 320m long?

It's not to do with a 400m minimum length but to ensure that in the event of an uncontrolled stop in the tunnel, there will be a train door near one of the emergency exits into the service tunnel so that passengers can be quickly and safely evacuated from the train.

I'm not sure what the distance is between emergency exits, but it's more than 200m (275m rings a faint bell). Therefore a formation made up of 2 x 200m non-gangwayed ICE units runs the risk of stopping with one of the units nowhere near an exit meaning that passengers would be required to walk along the tunnel to the nearest exit rather than through the train as is the case with a Eurostar. This is obviously less safe, especially in the event of a fire breaking out.

O L Leigh
 

YorkshireBear

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Apparently after board meeting today they are set to be ordered 10 400m long trains.
 

LE Greys

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It'd be useful if they were double-deckers, but that is probably unlikely. I've sometimes wondered if shortened (2+12 or 2+14) Eurostars could be cascaded onto the ECML as a permanent replacement for the 225s. I know they're not much newer, but they do have a.c. traction and an incredibly smooth ride. GNER certainly made good use of them at one point.
 

ukrob

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It'd be useful if they were double-deckers, but that is probably unlikely. I've sometimes wondered if shortened (2+12 or 2+14) Eurostars could be cascaded onto the ECML as a permanent replacement for the 225s. I know they're not much newer, but they do have a.c. traction and an incredibly smooth ride. GNER certainly made good use of them at one point.

They can't do 125mph on the ECML though can they?
 

A60K

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It's not to do with a 400m minimum length but to ensure that in the event of an uncontrolled stop in the tunnel, there will be a train door near one of the emergency exits into the service tunnel so that passengers can be quickly and safely evacuated from the train.

I'm not sure what the distance is between emergency exits, but it's more than 200m (275m rings a faint bell).
The emergency cross-passages from the running tunnels to the service tunnel are 375m apart, and the piston (draught) relief ducts connecting the two running tunnels at roof height are 250m apart.
 

Goldfish62

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Apparently after boarboargd meeting today they are set to be ordered 10 400m long trains.[/QUOTboar

Good. The French seem to have forgotten that Eurostar is part owned by the British and Belgians, neither of whom have any qualms ordering from Siemens.
 

WatcherZero

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More detailed article:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/eurostar-picks-velaro-to-expand-fleet.html

Eurostar picks Velaro to expand fleet
01 October 2010

EUROPE: Recently-restructured cross-Channel operator Eurostar International is understood to have selected Siemens as preferred bidder to supply additional trainsets to operate an expanded route network, with the decision due to be confirmed at a board meeting on October 1.

Eurostar has been looking for some time at introducing services to Amsterdam and Köln, particularly in the light of Deutsche Bahn’s objective of operating from Frankfurt to London by 2013.

Having decided that it would not be possible to fit its existing power cars with additional train protection equipment, Eurostar invited tenders from Alstom and Siemens through the Link-up system, bypassing the need for a separate OJEU notice.

Following tender evaluation and best and final offers, Siemens was selected as preferred bidder in June. The contract is expected to cover a fleet of 10 trains derived from Siemens’ Velaro platform, costing €600m. These would be around 400 m long, like the existing trains, and would not be the same as the eight-car Velaro D sets which DB is hoping to operate to London, subject to getting approval from the Intergovernmental Commission to run 200 m long trains through the Channel Tunnel.

The Siemens design is understood to meet TSIs and the Channel Tunnel safety rules, subject to the final abolition of the now-redundant splittability requirement. The IGC is still discussing fire suppression requirements for trains with distributed traction, which would include Alstom’s AGV as well as the Velaro.

However, there are reported to be concerns from the French government about a company majority-owned by SNCF looking to buy trains from a non-French supplier. Railway Gazette International understands that there has been pressure for the IGC not to permit the use of distributed traction through the Tunnel.

Compliance with the Channel Tunnel rules is a vital component in funding the deal, as the banks would need certainty that expensive trains would not be held in store due to acceptance issues. It is believed that the French authorities see fostering uncertainty as a way to delay the procurement.
 

ukrob

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Yes they can (North of London sets) - and did for years once the restrictions were lifted.

Fair enough. I was under the impression that they were always restricted to 110 whilst with GNER :)
 

Lampshade

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So was I.

Could they replace the pantographs to make them more suited for ECML running if it came to that??

It was more to do with the OHLE being too loosely sprung; replacing the pantographs would only fix half the problem.
 
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