How could the Mid-Cheshire Line be improved?

[FrodshamJnct]

It will. Northwich, Knutsford & Altrincham.
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Are they proposing to scrap the TFW services from Piccadilly to Chester/North Wales via Warrington Bank Quay, or is this in addition to them?

 

[py_megapixel]

It will. Northwich, Knutsford & Altrincham.
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Fair enough - hadn't realised that

 

[Ianno87]

Are they proposing to scrap the TFW services from Piccadilly to Chester/North Wales via Warrington Bank Quay, or is this in addition to them?

They would be re-routed via Altrincham, but the Leeds-Victoria-beyond Northern service would become 2tph to compensate.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

They would be re-routed via Altrincham, but the Leeds-Victoria-beyond Northern service would become 2tph to compensate.

Would they also compensate by calling at stations like Earlestown, Newton-le-Willows, Runcorn East and Frodsham?

 

[Isaiah]

It will. Northwich, Knutsford & Altrincham.
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When will this be happening?

 

[LOL The Irony]

When will this be happening?

May 2022 at the earliest if they do decide to stick to these plans after covid.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Would they also compensate by calling at stations like Earlestown, Newton-le-Willows, Runcorn East and Frodsham?

Apparently so. Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn East get a 2 trains per hour service to Manchester Victoria and Leeds. No more direct services to Oxford Road or Piccadilly.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Apparently so. Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn East get a 2 trains per hour service to Manchester Victoria and Leeds. No more direct services to Oxford Road or Piccadilly.

I wonder if stations like Frodsham and Helsby would remain TFW operated (it’d just be the Chester to Lime Street TFW service remaining), or become Norhern operated?

 

[cle]

So would there still be services fast from Chester - Warrington - Victoria?

To me, that makes much more sense for the North Wales service.

Frodsham and Helsby will have the Liverpool-Chester (onwards) 1tph too. There was also talk of this going up, maybe 2tph but maybe through splitting, unclear: 1tph to Shrewsbury (0.5 to Cardiff) and 1tph to North Wales.

As for Mid-Cheshire, I don't think it's best used for the longer distance services. But does need improvement. The best thing would be some Alty shuttles and full integration with Met - or the tram-train to Hale or even Knutsford, to cover the highest demand.

 

[The Planner]

One slight issue, if 195s aren't cleared, what about the proposed TfW service? Will they have to keep some 175s on for this specific service? Because as far as I'm aware, all UK Civitys use the same bodyshell.

You probably wouldn't lose any cash if you bet on the taskforce not knowing that detail currently.

 

[Ianno87]

So would there still be services fast from Chester - Warrington - Victoria?

To me, that makes much more sense for the North Wales service.

Frodsham and Helsby will have the Liverpool-Chester (onwards) 1tph too. There was also talk of this going up, maybe 2tph but maybe through splitting, unclear: 1tph to Shrewsbury (0.5 to Cardiff) and 1tph to North Wales.

As for Mid-Cheshire, I don't think it's best used for the longer distance services. But does need improvement. The best thing would be some Alty shuttles and full integration with Met - or the tram-train to Hale or even Knutsford, to cover the highest demand.

I think the other big benefit is the 2tph via Warrington would potentially become more evenly spread; off-memory the current 1 TfW+ 1 Northern is something like a 15/45 spread in one direction.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

So would there still be services fast from Chester - Warrington - Victoria?

To me, that makes much more sense for the North Wales service.

Frodsham and Helsby will have the Liverpool-Chester (onwards) 1tph too. There was also talk of this going up, maybe 2tph but maybe through splitting, unclear: 1tph to Shrewsbury (0.5 to Cardiff) and 1tph to North Wales.

As for Mid-Cheshire, I don't think it's best used for the longer distance services. But does need improvement. The best thing would be some Alty shuttles and full integration with Met - or the tram-train to Hale or even Knutsford, to cover the highest demand.

I believe one option is for the TFW services currently running through Bank Quay to go via the Mid Cheshire.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/manchester-recovery-taskforce-timetable-consultation.213089/

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Haven't TfW services fairly recently (last year or so) been diverted via the Mid Cheshire line during a period of engineering work affecting a section of their normal route between Chester and Manchester? If so, what stock would they have been using on such workings?

 

[yorksrob]

Haven't TfW services fairly recently (last year or so) been diverted via the Mid Cheshire line during a period of engineering work affecting a section of their normal route between Chester and Manchester? If so, what stock would they have been using on such workings?

They have, and the one I went on was one of their normal units (whatever they are).

 

[zwk500]

Haven't TfW services fairly recently (last year or so) been diverted via the Mid Cheshire line during a period of engineering work affecting a section of their normal route between Chester and Manchester? If so, what stock would they have been using on such workings?

As shown in my post on page 1, Class 175s are cleared throughout

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As shown in my post on page 1, Class 175s are cleared throughout

Did you? Which post number? Must have missed that! Either way, thanks for clarifying / re-clarifying.

(Presuming that class 175s are what TfW might run on the Mid Cheshire).

 

[Watershed]

Did you? Which post number? Must have missed that! Either way, thanks for clarifying / re-clarifying.

(Presuming that class 175s are what TfW might run on the Mid Cheshire).

They have a handful of empty class 175 Chester-Manchester services booked over the Mid Cheshire line to keep up crew route knowledge.

 

[zwk500]

Did you? Which post number? Must have missed that! Either way, thanks for clarifying / re-clarifying.

(Presuming that class 175s are what TfW might run on the Mid Cheshire).

Post #55, page 2 (sorry!).

Class 175s are what I imagine TfW would run, but they could also run 150s or 158s, both of which are clear throughout.

 

[Ianno87]

Did you? Which post number? Must have missed that! Either way, thanks for clarifying / re-clarifying.

(Presuming that class 175s are what TfW might run on the Mid Cheshire).

They have a handful of empty class 175 Chester-Manchester services booked over the Mid Cheshire line to keep up crew route knowledge.

The occasional 175 wandered onto the "normal" Mid Cheshire service occasionally in First North Western days.

 

[Polarbear]

I've certainly travelled along the mid-Cheshire line on a 175 in the past. Probably on a Sunday diversion.

As for providing the line with a better service, I'd suggest 1 tph Chester - Manchester, and 1 tph Crewe - Manchester via Middlewich. The Chester service to skip-stop some of the smaller stations between Northwich & Altrincham and the Middlewich service would be all stations. Appreciate paths would be an issue presently, especially between Stockport & Piccadilly though.

Ideally, a western link to the airport would make life easier.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The occasional 175 wandered onto the "normal" Mid Cheshire service occasionally in First North Western days.

They were actually booked for some early morning runs to Manchester. Sadly, I never got to experience that but oh well.

 

[Greybeard33]

As for providing the line with a better service, I'd suggest 1 tph Chester - Manchester, and 1 tph Crewe - Manchester via Middlewich. The Chester service to skip-stop some of the smaller stations between Northwich & Altrincham and the Middlewich service would be all stations. Appreciate paths would be an issue presently, especially between Stockport & Piccadilly though.

I believe paths between Crewe and Sandbach would also be an issue, especially once HS2 Phase 2a opens and the London - Manchester trains start running via Crewe and Wilmslow. And Northwich station would need a costly rebuild, to reinstate a platform on the Middlewich line.

Unlikely to happen for the foreseeable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2021 ==

Altrincham is the natural terminus for Metrolink. Extending the service beyond there requires the complexity of tram trains and would interfere with the extensive freight traffic. It isn't worth doing so just as far as Hale, which is in any case very affluent and low density suburbia, and beyond there is the relatively empty Cheshire countryside.

Although TfGM's five year plan actually says:

In the next five years, we aim to complete the business case for early delivery of Tram-Train Pathfinder South: South Manchester to Hale via Altrincham.
Rationale: A pilot scheme to maximise the utilisation of the existing Metrolink capacity in order to accommodate rapid transit demand growth to and through the Regional Centre. Will also facilitate testing of the tram-train concept for wider application in Greater Manchester.

Our Five Year Transport Delivery Plan

greater manchester transport strategy

tfgm.com

 

[FrodshamJnct]

I’d hope if it does happen that the Northern services through Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby would stop at these stations more frequently than they do now (couple of times per day).

 

[daodao]

@ Greybeard33

I am aware of TfGM's proposal to run tram-trains beyond Altrincham to Hale. I stand by my previously expressed view and think it is futile and a waste of resources. as is their proposal to run tram-trains from M/c Airport to Wilmslow. Both are likely to be opposed by Network Rail because of adverse knock-on consequences on heavy rail operations. Tram-trains are complicated to run and set up and it would be better to try to extend Metrolink in the way it is currently run as a stand-alone light rail system.

TfGM have quite a number of suggestions in the 2040 strategy, but only a few of the more realistic options are likely to see the light of day. A more sensible TfGM suggestion for trialling tram-trains is from Rochdale to Heywood and ultimately to Bury. This would be a much more useful link and IMO a better way to try out tram-trains in Greater M/c.

 

[Greybeard33]

I’d hope if it does happen that the Northern services through Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby would stop at these stations more frequently than they do now (couple of times per day).

The proposal is that Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby will get a half-hourly Northern service all day, with the TfW trains diverted on to the Mid Cheshire.

I am aware of TfGM's proposal to run tram-trains beyond Altrincham to Hale. I stand by my previously expressed view and think it is futile and a waste of resources. Another TfGM suggestion for trialling tram-trains is from Bury to Rochdale via Heywood. This would be a much more useful link and a better way to try out tram-trains in Greater M/c.

I suspect the TfGM intention is to change the parallel single tracks between Deansgate Junction and Navigation Road back to a double track railway, shared between heavy rail and tram-trains.

This would act as a "pathfinder" for subsequent tram-train conversion of Ashburys - Rose Hill Marple via Bredbury, with a similar shared section between Romiley Junction and Marple Wharf Junction.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

I suspect the TfGM intention is to change the parallel single tracks between Deansgate Junction and Navigation Road back to a double track railway, shared between heavy rail and tram-trains.

Isn’t that what there currently is? Or are ‘tram-trains’ different to the trams that currently share that bit of the network with heavy rail?

 

[zwk500]

Isn’t that what there currently is? Or are ‘tram-trains’ different to the trams that currently share that bit of the network with heavy rail?

Tram-trains are vehicles that run on both the heavy rail network and tram tracks. Currently the only ones in the UK are the Class 399 on the Sheffield-Rotherham. Manchester only has trams adjacent to trains on independent single tracks.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Tram-trains are vehicles that run on both the heavy rail network and tram tracks. Currently the only ones in the UK are the Class 399 on the Sheffield-Rotherham. Manchester only has trams adjacent to trains on independent single tracks.

Yeah that’s what I thought, thanks. Feels like a lot of knock-on effect but then I suppose the Castefield issue is a major one that requires serious changes to produce a real effect.

 

[Greybeard33]

Isn’t that what there currently is? Or are ‘tram-trains’ different to the trams that currently share that bit of the network with heavy rail?

Tram-trains are vehicles that run on both the heavy rail network and tram tracks. Currently the only ones in the UK are the Class 399 on the Sheffield-Rotherham. Manchester only has trams adjacent to trains on independent single tracks.

Yes, through Navigation Road the trams run both ways on one track and heavy rail trains both ways on the other parallel track. This single line working causes a bottleneck on both networks.

Tram-trains, like the Class 399s currently operating between Sheffield and Rotherham, are built to higher crashworthiness standards than the current Metrolink trams, and are equipped with heavy rail systems such as TPWS to permit operation on National Rail tracks.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Yes, through Navigation Road the trams run both ways on one track and heavy rail trains both ways on the other parallel track. This single line working causes a bottleneck on both networks.

Tram-trains, like the Class 399s currently operating between Sheffield and Rotherham, are built to higher crashworthiness standards than the current Metrolink trams, and are equipped with heavy rail systems such as TPWS to permit operation on National Rail tracks.

Interesting, thanks! Does it really cause that much of a bottleneck? The CLC line isn’t a particularly busy one, but I suppose this could be more of an issue for the trams.