Is there a future for on train catering?

[Bletchleyite]

TGVs have a bar area with food, but it's off-putting and disincentivises 1st class travel.

Eh? How can the provision of a facility you don't want to use that doesn't affect one you do in any way put you off the one you do?

Isn't it the case, like DB ICE, that you can be served, at the normal price, anything from the Bistro at your set in 1st on proper crockery etc? That seems the best way for me. If you want it, pay for it.

 

[RT4038]

No, it doesn’t mean that TOCs are adequately providing a good enough service for those travelling on business. It just means that business is prioritising cost savings. All that TOCs need to provide is better WiFi and more space to have a laptop open on a table. Currently they do not do that very well.

I take it that you mostly travel for leisure or outside of peak hours? Or do you work for a TOC? You seem very defensive of the first class service.

If business are prioritising cost savings against their staff travelling conditions, then so be it. Surely if those staff feel that these conditions are inadequate, they can take this up with their employer. The TOCs provide a Business [First] class, at a premium fare. Of course businesses/people want to buy premium products for Standard prices ( I want Waitrose food for ASDA prices), but they don't want to sell their premium products for standard prices.

I travel both for leisure and for work, in both peak and off peak hours. I do not work for a TOC. If you want to trade snide remarks, why are you so keen on Lowest Common Denominator travel, converting the national network into a gigantic Underground/suburban train system? [Downgrade/abolish Catering and First Class]. Next you'll be suggesting peripheral seating for all so standing passengers can have more space, or perhaps the ultimate egalitarian standing passengers only?

If business travellers want guaranteed working space for their laptop then they must buy First Class tickets. Simple. Leaves more space for those who travel Standard class and have to put up with cheapskate business travellers taking more than their fair share of space trying to do work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If business travellers want guaranteed working space for their laptop then they must buy First Class tickets. Simple. Leaves more space for those who travel Standard class and have to put up with cheapskate business travellers taking more than their fair share of space trying to do work.

On a proper sized Standard class table (e.g. Class 175) there is plenty of room for 4 laptops. Same on those folding tables that you don't often get here for some reason.

 

[RT4038]

Eh? How can the provision of a facility you don't want to use that doesn't affect one you do in any way put you off the one you do?

Isn't it the case, like DB ICE, that you can be served, at the normal price, anything from the Bistro at your set in 1st on proper crockery etc? That seems the best way for me. If you want it, pay for it.

Apart from certain International TGVs (Paris-Milan certainly), I think there is no 'at seat' service in 1st class. I guess that is what PK referring to?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from certain International TGVs (Paris-Milan certainly), I think there is no 'at seat' service in 1st class. I guess that is what PK referring to?

Ah, I thought there was (paid for) as standard. I stand corrected, but this just adds to the reasons why the ICE service concept is superior!

 

[RT4038]

On a proper sized Standard class table (e.g. Class 175) there is plenty of room for 4 laptops. Same on those folding tables that you don't often get here for some reason.

You are quite right. I guess the issue is that there are relatively few tables in Standard class (to give maximum seating capacity I presume). If you have some work that you must do on the train, the only way of (pretty much) guaranteeing a table for your laptop is to buy a 1st class ticket.

 

[London Trains]

I doubt it. I’d expect the slower WCML & MML services to be more like London Northwestern. I still think we will see catering on HS2, but it will be a simple shop.

Definitely not.

On the WCML fast trains still have to run to Birmingham (for Coventry), Chester and North Wales (not served by HS2) and Manchester (for Stoke). I would expect all of these to call at Milton Keynes, one Birmingham at Watford Junction, one Birmingham at Rugby and the North Wales at Stafford (to replace the Liverpool stop). Other than that, these services would stay as fast intercity trains. Also, by the time HS2 is up and running, I might expect the Pendolinos to be retired and the new Hitachi trains to take over (the service will be much less so there may be enough trains for it - if not they can order more at the time)

On the MML fast trains still have to run to Leicester (and Loughborough). I dont see much changing other than the fasts and slows being switched so the fast services go to Nottingham and the slow services to Sheffield (as they will have faster HS2 services). Nothing much can really change south of Bedford due to Thameslink anyway.

 

[Purple Orange]

Definitely not.

On the WCML fast trains still have to run to Birmingham (for Coventry), Chester and North Wales (not served by HS2) and Manchester (for Stoke). I would expect all of these to call at Milton Keynes, one Birmingham at Watford Junction, one Birmingham at Rugby and the North Wales at Stafford (to replace the Liverpool stop). Other than that, these services would stay as fast intercity trains. Also, by the time HS2 is up and running, I might expect the Pendolinos to be retired and the new Hitachi trains to take over (the service will be much less so there may be enough trains for it - if not they can order more at the time)

On the MML fast trains still have to run to Leicester (and Loughborough). I dont see much changing other than the fasts and slows being switched so the fast services go to Nottingham and the slow services to Sheffield (as they will have faster HS2 services). Nothing much can really change south of Bedford due to Thameslink anyway.

What you are proposing is a duplication of services. Does
MK need 3 trains per hour to Manchester for instance? Do they need to be 125 mph running or would something similar to a class 350 do the job? I think replicating the current WCML intercity fast services will be saturating demand and the benefits of services timed at the same speed will be lost.

 

[HSTEd]

I would expect any ICWC servis on the classic line to resemble the ICEC London-Newark/York service.
"Intercity" but stopping at all "Intercity" stations.

 

[Purple Orange]

I travel both for leisure and for work, in both peak and off peak hours. I do not work for a TOC. If you want to trade snide remarks, why are you so keen on Lowest Common Denominator travel, converting the national network into a gigantic Underground/suburban train system? [Downgrade/abolish Catering and First Class]. Next you'll be suggesting peripheral seating for all so standing passengers can have more space, or perhaps the ultimate egalitarian standing passengers only?

Far from wanting lowest common denominator travel, I’m seeking a better standard of travel. First class travel today is fairy rubbish for what they offer in my opinion and all TOCs have failed to develop a service that enables good reliable WiFi.

You’d also have to go back through earlier posts to see that my view on abolishing catering (just hot cooked meals served to seats not completely getting rid of catering) was principally foccussed in XC and TPE. I did point out to you that there was a risk of this issue being too London focussed. But in addition to that, my view is based on life post HS2, which a hot cooked meal served to your seat is going to be a redundant service on journeys that are a maximum of 45 mins or 1 hour. That leaves long distance to Scotland & Newcastle, which I suspect TOCs would sooner provide a uniform service on long distance travel than provide hot meals for those going to Scotland and the majority of the market which is heading to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.

 

[London Trains]

What you are proposing is a duplication of services. Does
MK need 3 trains per hour to Manchester for instance? Do they need to be 125 mph running or would something similar to a class 350 do the job? I think replicating the current WCML intercity fast services will be saturating demand and the benefits of services timed at the same speed will be lost.

That's not what I meant. I am proposing 2tph to Birmingham, 1tph to Manchester and 1tph to North Wales - that is the expected WCML pattern after HS2 anyway. About the 125mph question, the newly order Hitachi trains for Avanti will likely only be able to run to 110mph on the south WCML anyway. I propose these trains are used (with the service reduction there might be enough - else more can be ordered) and the Pendolinos retired, with the South WCML becoming 110mph. With the excellent acceleration on these trains, times will be very similar to 125mph Pendolino times. It also enables more 350s to run on the fast lines, but my proposed services need to be Intercity.

 

[RT4038]

What you are proposing is a duplication of services. Does
MK need 3 trains per hour to Manchester for instance? Do they need to be 125 mph running or would something similar to a class 350 do the job? I think replicating the current WCML intercity fast services will be saturating demand and the benefits of services timed at the same speed will be lost.

I'm not sure that London Trains is suggesting 3 trains per hour to Manchester?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are quite right. I guess the issue is that there are relatively few tables in Standard class (to give maximum seating capacity I presume). If you have some work that you must do on the train, the only way of (pretty much) guaranteeing a table for your laptop is to buy a 1st class ticket.

I think this was the main reason why TPE did specify a very old-fashioned layout (pretty much all tables) on the Mk5s and 397s, the 80x have a standard layout but still plenty of tables.

 

[RT4038]

Far from wanting lowest common denominator travel, I’m seeking a better standard of travel. First class travel today is fairy rubbish for what they offer in my opinion and all TOCs have failed to develop a service that enables good reliable WiFi.

You’d also have to go back through earlier posts to see that my view on abolishing catering (just hot cooked meals served to seats not completely getting rid of catering) was principally foccussed in XC and TPE. I did point out to you that there was a risk of this issue being too London focussed. But in addition to that, my view is based on life post HS2, which a hot cooked meal served to your seat is going to be a redundant service on journeys that are a maximum of 45 mins or 1 hour. That leaves long distance to Scotland & Newcastle, which I suspect TOCs would sooner provide a uniform service on long distance travel than provide hot meals for those going to Scotland and the majority of the market which is heading to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.

I really fail to see how abolishing First Class, or hot food catering, could be a 'better standard of travel'. You are obviously entitled to your opinion on First Class, but if that is currently 'fairly rubbish' then what kind of class were you thinking of - VSOE Pullman, South African Blue Train?
I guess that good reliable WiFi costs money, and perhaps experience has shown TOCs that travellers are not prepared to pay extra for this service? In any case, I am unsure what relevance that has to First Class or catering, except perhaps that it could be provided in First Class?

Perhaps you don't travel 4+ hours in each direction on a one day business trip. Get up at 5am, down to the station for 6.45 then cooked Full English Breakfast on the train. Plenty of space to do some work. Arrive to start meetings at 11. Snack lunch and meetings until 4.30pm. Return to the station for the 5.30pm back with hot dinner and some more work, and arrive home by 10pm. Now I could call in at the Tesco extra for a cheap chilled sandwich for breakfast, and a gunk Burger King meal before returning, with no decent hot meal for 15hr or more, but why would I? I could go by 'plane instead, which would give me more time to get a hot meal, but that is hardly in the railway interest.
Even if you are only on the train for 2 hours, you may have considerable extra journey to and from the stations at each end. Do I want to scratch about in Greggs, Tesco Extras and the like for a snack meal, or stay out even longer to eat in a restaurant somewhere. No thanks!

The demand for First Class and catering is bound to be greater on London Inter-City services (simply because they have the most demand for business and other travel), rather than provincial lines. However I do wonder whether any cheaper 'dumbing down' of First Class on these lines would really attract more custom - businesses that are more cost conscious than their employee welfare are just as likely to ban this class too. As for making everyone travel in one LCD Standard Class - No thanks!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect TOCs would sooner provide a uniform service on long distance travel than provide hot meals for those going to Scotland and the majority of the market which is heading to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.

I'm not sure to me this makes sense. GWR is a good example - Bristol/Cardiff are barely more than outersuburban commuter services with slightly posh rolling stock - probably far enough for a second cup of tea from a trolley. But the Westcountry is a proper long distance IC service with most peoples' journeys being in excess of 4 hours. This being the case, a proper restaurant car would surely do better.

 

[DBNR]

Based on (pre-lockdown) experience, ICE services and IC services operated by DB offer the same service concept in first. I was lucky enough to travel on a 7 hour IC journey from southern Germany back to Cologne and the at seat beer in a proper glass and obligatory currywurst made the journey better! (That and the first class ticket only being an extra 2 euros when booking made it a no brainer).

That said, Cologne to Trier (a nearly 4 hour journey) on a regional express train has no catering as this is not offered on RE services.

Even the low cost long distance operator ‘Flixtrain’ offers catering on their trains albeit not an at seat service.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Eh? How can the provision of a facility you don't want to use that doesn't affect one you do in any way put you off the one you do?

Isn't it the case, like DB ICE, that you can be served, at the normal price, anything from the Bistro at your set in 1st on proper crockery etc? That seems the best way for me. If you want it, pay for it.

Yes, but the bar gives the same treatment to 1st class passengers as 2nd. So it removes one major advantage of long-distance 1st.

 

[Purple Orange]

I really fail to see how abolishing First Class, or hot food catering, could be a 'better standard of travel'. You are obviously entitled to your opinion on First Class, but if that is currently 'fairly rubbish' then what kind of class were you thinking of - VSOE Pullman, South African Blue Train?
I guess that good reliable WiFi costs money, and perhaps experience has shown TOCs that travellers are not prepared to pay extra for this service? In any case, I am unsure what relevance that has to First Class or catering, except perhaps that it could be provided in First Class?

Perhaps you don't travel 4+ hours in each direction on a one day business trip. Get up at 5am, down to the station for 6.45 then cooked Full English Breakfast on the train. Plenty of space to do some work. Arrive to start meetings at 11. Snack lunch and meetings until 4.30pm. Return to the station for the 5.30pm back with hot dinner and some more work, and arrive home by 10pm. Now I could call in at the Tesco extra for a cheap chilled sandwich for breakfast, and a gunk Burger King meal before returning, with no decent hot meal for 15hr or more, but why would I? I could go by 'plane instead, which would give me more time to get a hot meal, but that is hardly in the railway interest.
Even if you are only on the train for 2 hours, you may have considerable extra journey to and from the stations at each end. Do I want to scratch about in Greggs, Tesco Extras and the like for a snack meal, or stay out even longer to eat in a restaurant somewhere. No thanks!

The demand for First Class and catering is bound to be greater on London Inter-City services (simply because they have the most demand for business and other travel), rather than provincial lines. However I do wonder whether any cheaper 'dumbing down' of First Class on these lines would really attract more custom - businesses that are more cost conscious than their employee welfare are just as likely to ban this class too. As for making everyone travel in one LCD Standard Class - No thanks!

I sense that my point of view irritates you, so I’d rather step back a little from the heat. The benefit you derive from 1st class is not something that perhaps is my cup of tea, as is what I value as a good service is not your cup of tea. Rather than going back and forth, I’d rather highlight how I think catering will change over the coming years:

• HS2 service standards will set the bar for catering on U.K. trains.
• The majority of these services will be less than 2 hours, with only Scotland taking 3hr 38mins and Newcastle taking 2hr 19mins. 17% of HS2 trains out of Euston and 12% of capacity (according to Wikipedia).
• Their core market will be Leeds (1hr 28 mins), Brum (52 mins) and Manc (1hr 8mins) constituting 53% of services out of Euston and 68% of capacity.
• All services under 90 mins (the above plus Sheffield & York) constitutes 60% of HS2 services from Euston and 80% of capacity.

With that in mind, what level of catering will be deemed most suitable for either standard & 1st class (or premium standard too if they go the route of Eurostar)? Will HS2 go for a consistent service level or a split service level?

In my opinion, catering will end up being:

• Each 200m train to have an onboard shop.
• 1st class to receive free drinks and light food (pastries, fruit, small savoury items etc).
• A hot meal seems inefficient on journeys less than 90 mins, so perhaps they could appear on the Scotland services, but given that these services constitute a small proportion of the total, I suspect that will be sacrificed for a consistent approach to catering across the network.
• Long distance services on the classic network will probably follow the Chiltern or London Northwestern model.
• The exception will be GWR, which I would expect to follow a model that follows HS2 on some services.

 

[Energy]

All that TOCs need to provide is better WiFi

A lot easier said than done, train WiFi works of mobile data so you are effectively sharing a mobile signal with people around you (although it overall be faster than just one 4G connection as otherwise the internet would be incredibly slow). It is also dependant on phone carrier's infrastructure.

One of the reasons why WiFi is often paid on a lot of operators (such as XC) is too limit the amount of people using it as people are reluctant to pay a bit to use it unless they have to, this means the connection is being used by less people so the WiFi is faster for everyone using it. So the ways for faster WiFi are: charging people to use it or wait for phone carriers to improve the speeds available on their infrastructure (5G will improve this one in areas which it will be deployed). The latter one is the best but will not be available in a lot of areas as railways run through a lot of country side.

The best ways to improve trains for business travellers are tables which are big enough (as you said) and complementary tea and coffee although the latter I would put into a standard+ or premium economy type of class.

 

[stuu]

But the Westcountry is a proper long distance IC service with most peoples' journeys being in excess of 4 hours. This being the case, a proper restaurant car would surely do better.

Source? I'd love to see some actual figures on that, but 4 hours puts you into Cornwall. My (anecdotal) experience based on living in Taunton and going to London as much as weekly, from looking at reservations is that very few passengers in the week are travelling beyond Plymouth. That will of course be different on busy weekends and high summer, but then that raises the question of which market is most important to serve...

 

[RT4038]

I sense that my point of view irritates you, so I’d rather step back a little from the heat. The benefit you derive from 1st class is not something that perhaps is my cup of tea, as is what I value as a good service is not your cup of tea. Rather than going back and forth, I’d rather highlight how I think catering will change over the coming years:

• HS2 service standards will set the bar for catering on U.K. trains.
• The majority of these services will be less than 2 hours, with only Scotland taking 3hr 38mins and Newcastle taking 2hr 19mins. 17% of HS2 trains out of Euston and 12% of capacity (according to Wikipedia).
• Their core market will be Leeds (1hr 28 mins), Brum (52 mins) and Manc (1hr 8mins) constituting 53% of services out of Euston and 68% of capacity.
• All services under 90 mins (the above plus Sheffield & York) constitutes 60% of HS2 services from Euston and 80% of capacity.

With that in mind, what level of catering will be deemed most suitable for either standard & 1st class (or premium standard too if they go the route of Eurostar)? Will HS2 go for a consistent service level or a split service level?

In my opinion, catering will end up being:

• Each 200m train to have an onboard shop.
• 1st class to receive free drinks and light food (pastries, fruit, small savoury items etc).
• A hot meal seems inefficient on journeys less than 90 mins, so perhaps they could appear on the Scotland services, but given that these services constitute a small proportion of the total, I suspect that will be sacrificed for a consistent approach to catering across the network.
• Long distance services on the classic network will probably follow the Chiltern or London Northwestern model.
• The exception will be GWR, which I would expect to follow a model that follows HS2 on some services.

I sincerely hope catering doesn't end up like this on HS2, but as I have stated before, I shall be long retired before HS2 opens!
As for the Chiltern or London NorthWestern suburban train model, some might go on that and hopefully I can ride an intermediate type of train on these routes with some form of Premium Class and catering.

No irritation, just my point of view. Yours is just as valid, even if I don't much like it!

 

[RT4038]

A lot easier said than done, train WiFi works of mobile data so you are effectively sharing a mobile signal with people around you (although it overall be faster than just one 4G connection as otherwise the internet would be incredibly slow). It is also dependant on phone carrier's infrastructure.

One of the reasons why WiFi is often paid on a lot of operators (such as XC) is too limit the amount of people using it as people are reluctant to pay a bit to use it unless they have to, this means the connection is being used by less people so the WiFi is faster for everyone using it. So the ways for faster WiFi are: charging people to use it or wait for phone carriers to improve the speeds available on their infrastructure (5G will improve this one in areas which it will be deployed). The latter one is the best but will not be available in a lot of areas as railways run through a lot of country side.

Quite so.

 

[py_megapixel]

I am aware people appreciate onboard catering but personally I've often found it to be understocked (from an already poor selection) and overpriced compared with the same products from a convenience store, for example.

With an ever-increasing adoption of smartphones, is it plausible to have some mechanism whereby one orders one's food via an app, and at major stations precisely what has been ordered is loaded and distributed to passengers? This has a few advantages:

1. Possibility of a far greater range of stock, making the catering more popular and therefore more financially viable
2. Items would not run out as frequently (for example, no more "sorry you can't have a coffee, I've run out of hot water")
3. Don't need to take up space on the train for a buffet or trolley dock
4. Possibility of pre-ordering food in ticket buying apps which is currently not a possible feature

In fact, for those who don't want to do this, there could possibly be touchscreens (like McDonalds ordering points) mounted in the vestibule, or even the conductor could take orders and phone them in.

 

[Mikey C]

I can see the attraction of a proper hot meal for those who are prepared to pay the extra. I've occasionally been in 1st when it was still VTWC and it's quite civilised.

For everyone else though, the attractions of the station shops have taken away a lot of the business. Get to the station 15 minutes early, grab some food and drink, and bring it on. Cheaper than the trolley, and less hassle than wobbling down a moving train to buy a coffee and packet of crisps.

 

[mmh]

People in long haul steerage will always want tea and coffee. People paying 300 quid for their ticket will always want a "free" "meal." Everything inbetween is niche. I can't see vending machines taking off because there'll be an urge that they need supervision, and if you're staffing them you may as well have the staff serving people.

 

[mmh]

With an ever-increasing adoption of smartphones, is it plausible to have some mechanism whereby one orders one's food via an app, and at major stations precisely what has been ordered is loaded and distributed to passengers?

No. From the operator's view: it'd be hugely expensive and kills impulse buys, which are what almost all their sales are. From the passenger's view: if I have to plan and order before I'm on the train I may as well just take my own.

 

[PeterC]

I can see the attraction of a proper hot meal for those who are prepared to pay the extra. I've occasionally been in 1st when it was still VTWC and it's quite civilised.

For everyone else though, the attractions of the station shops have taken away a lot of the business. Get to the station 15 minutes early, grab some food and drink, and bring it on. Cheaper than the trolley, and less hassle than wobbling down a moving train to buy a coffee and packet of crisps.

Try putting your ticket through a gate while carrying a bag and a cup of coffee. I'd rather buy on board, preferably at a time that suited me rather than when an attendant could be bothered to take the trolley for a walk.

 

[Ianno87]

Try putting your ticket through a gate while carrying a bag and a cup of coffee.

Lots of people seem to manage fine with that. Or, more intelligently, buy their coffee after passing through the barriers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Try putting your ticket through a gate while carrying a bag and a cup of coffee. I'd rather buy on board, preferably at a time that suited me rather than when an attendant could be bothered to take the trolley for a walk.

Put coffee on barrier
Insert ticket
Take ticket
Pick up coffee

The barriers will remain open for a goodly long time, plenty of time to do that.

 

[Vespa]

That was the BR argument for providing a full meal service to attract first class passengers. Given that virtually no-one is allowed first class travel on expenses any more not sure the numbers add up now. Need to attract quite a few additional full fare paying passengers to cover the losses on-board catering makes.

I regularly travel first class and I would expect first class meals and drinks to go with it to justify the extra money I've spent with the company.

At one time first class was the preserve of the very rich and the privileged with a service to match, now it's more democratic anyone can have one if they book far enough ahead and use a railcard, the meal options are much smaller than the olden days overall, it's still one step up from standard class.

I have experienced GWR Pullman dining service and I thoroughly enjoyed it, it wasn't cheap but worth the money, GWR don't really make a lot of money from it, it's more a flagship service .