Is there a future for on train catering?

[LMS 4F]

Given all the restrictions on travel in place at present and not alot of improvements due for some time I wonder if on board catering of whatever sort has any sort of future.
With guards and train managers not checking tickets I can't see trolleys going up and down and being able to observe social distancing.
Once the government gives back the franchises to the TOCs surely management will be looking to save money given lower fare income.
I can see vending machines for drinks and perhaps light snacks. Anything else would have to be obtained before the journey, whether purchased at a station or elsewhere.
This would cause an outcry but how else would the system work in the situation we find ourself in and for how long in the future no one has any idea.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Eventually yes. I would hate to go on a long x-country route without catering of some sort. Also if I was paying for a 1st class ticket Glasgow- London and there was no catering I would be very miffed indeed.

 

[Purple Orange]

All that is needed is a shop area. Vending machines could well be it.

In fact post HS2, there will be a chance to completely change catering and I think it will be centred around an onboard shop.

 

[Richard Scott]

Would hope there's something. Many IC services in Italy have no catering (unless an enterprising local gets on) and it's definitely not a plus point. Likewise all (I believe) long distance non TGV SNCF trains have no catering and it's definitely off putting. There's something very enjoyable about travelling on a train and being able to sit and drink a coffee.

 

[BigCj34]

I might save money by not buying anything on the train, as I would be forced to prepare food and drink in advance, but it is realistically not going to attract passengers. Seeing as LNER have services designed to have direct London journeys from Inverness and Aberdeen, traveling 8 hours without access to purchase anything would discourage passengers.

In this present time then by all means suspend catering to guarantee staff and passnger safefy. If people are discouraged from travelling then that is a good thing until this Covid saga ends.

 

[HSTEd]

Doubtful, assuming HS2 actually opens and is somewhat succesful, the progressive reduction in travel times will kill most of the remaining market for on-train catering.

Journeys like London-Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds won't need catering offers any more, and the demand will be substantially weakened further north.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All that is needed is a shop area. Vending machines could well be it.

In fact post HS2, there will be a chance to completely change catering and I think it will be centred around an onboard shop.

A "trolley dock" type shop takes fewer staff to provide good service than a trolley, as you don't have to wait for it. The downside is that you need to take your tech with you. I have mixed views. I think I'd rather at-seat service, but with enough staff, which probably means one trolley per approximately two or three coaches, which means it's more expensive to provide well than a counter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would hope there's something. Many IC services in Italy have no catering (unless an enterprising local gets on) and it's definitely not a plus point. Likewise all (I believe) long distance non TGV SNCF trains have no catering and it's definitely off putting. There's something very enjoyable about travelling on a train and being able to sit and drink a coffee.

The Italians do enjoy necking a quick espresso with a morning cigarette, but they don't have the same obsession with having a cup of tea permanently sat there as British people do, nor do they favour "long" American style coffees. So the UK has a hot drinks market that they don't. That's the main thing an on board service can provide that carrying it on can't in the same way. OK, you can take a Thermos flask, but that doesn't tend to taste anywhere near as nice.

Anything else you can indeed take with you, and we've moved on from the idea that for a meal to be "premium" it has to be hot - M&S Food is a great demonstration of that. Having said that, there are some longer journeys (the Westcountry, London-Edinburgh, XC) where at-seat quality meal service could work.

 

[yorksrob]

People will always want a hot drink on longer services. I get the point about HS2, but even on that, a journey like London - Leeds will still be long enough that enough people will want a cup of tea and a kit kat.

 

[markymark2000]

Given all the restrictions on travel in place at present and not alot of improvements due for some time I wonder if on board catering of whatever sort has any sort of future.
With guards and train managers not checking tickets I can't see trolleys going up and down and being able to observe social distancing.
Once the government gives back the franchises to the TOCs surely management will be looking to save money given lower fare income.
I can see vending machines for drinks and perhaps light snacks. Anything else would have to be obtained before the journey, whether purchased at a station or elsewhere.
This would cause an outcry but how else would the system work in the situation we find ourself in and for how long in the future no one has any idea.

I think right now, trolleys aren't essential and not needed. In the longer term, catering is needed on long distance trips. I can't speak for everyone but I would prefer some a static trolley area rather than it going through the train as the trolleys always get stuck going through the train and get in the way of passengers. On some routes, they only go through once so other times you have to hunt for the thing. A static trolley would be better. The down side is a static trolley needs you to take out seats or luggage pens. Neither of which would be popular.

If static mini shops aren't doable, I would like to see TOCs limiting trolley service to only being available where it's needed and pulling the trolley off at busy times. I will use the example of TFW from North Wales to Manchester. It normally goes through before Helsby and then you never see it again. After Warrington and into Manchester, of course the service can be quite busy. The trolley come off at Warrington, switch trains and then return on the next train. Heading from Warrington to Manchester, the journey is that short, you are unlikely to purchase anything. Heading the other way, if you are boarding in Manchester, you will likely have bought your stuff at the station.
If you account for working timetable, there is an 8 minute difference between the to Manchester service arriving and from Manchester departing. If there are no delays, you could maybe make the staff go between these services. Otherwise you have a 1h 8 min wait. Either way, there are less staff needed.

 

[Western Lord]

Time to reintroduce the twenty minute lunch stop at places like Swindon and York...….

 

[Bletchleyite]

Time to reintroduce the twenty minute lunch stop at places like Swindon and York...….

With today's more frequent services you can put that in yourself, and I usually do on a longer trip on a walk-up ticket, e.g. go from the North West to MK via Manchester and have something there. Harder with Advances, but journey planners like Trainsplit will do it, if the others did that's that problem solved. The train only needs to sit and wait on old-fashioned frequencies of a couple a day, not when it's more than hourly.

 

[Purple Orange]

A "trolley dock" type shop takes fewer staff to provide good service than a trolley, as you don't have to wait for it. The downside is that you need to take your tech with you. I have mixed views. I think I'd rather at-seat service, but with enough staff, which probably means one trolley per approximately two or three coaches, which means it's more expensive to provide well than a counter.

It would require 2 shops staffed by 1 FTE each, given that whole train will be comprised of two 200m sets. But I’d argue it makes financial sense to have a shop similar to what exists on Virgin West Coast, given that each shop will have 300 people at any one time to cater for (I will assume 60% average capacity for prudence). They could take inspiration from motorway service stations and stick a mini Costa or Starbucks (that also serves bottles of Ale!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would require 2 shops staffed by 1 FTE each, given that whole train will be comprised of two 200m sets. But I’d argue it makes financial sense to have a shop similar to what exists on Virgin West Coast, given that each shop will have 300 people at any one time to cater for (I will assume 60% average capacity for prudence). They could take inspiration from motorway service stations and stick a mini Costa or Starbucks (that also serves bottles of Ale!).

Costa seems very ready to licence their brand ("we proudly serve Costa") - and I reckon that could well up the market somewhat.

Would a Costa Express machine, perhaps debit card operated, work with all the vibration, as another option? Vending machine coffee doesn't have to be rubbish - I find I actually prefer the coffee out of those than the coffee sold under the same brand at the counter. (I think this may be because the machines use semi-skimmed milk, whereas the counters used to be whole or skimmed only, though this has recently changed).

The trouble with a trolley is the uncertainty - is it even there and when will it come through if it is. I want a tea or coffee (I'm weird, I drink both) when I've boarded and sat down, not at some arbitrary time when the trolley can be bothered to get to me. And talking of TOCs that use trolleys, I have a 0% success rate at buying hot drinks on GWR IC services - on every journey I have attempted it, on none have I succeeded for various reasons. The other way round that is some form of at-seat ordering, I suppose, which could be a combination of ordering yourself via a mobile app and someone coming through quickly taking orders (perhaps the guard could take orders while checking tickets?). That would allow an at-seat offering without the uncertainty. Though that said, you could offer at-seat without the uncertainty by way of the trolley bod making better use of the PA.

 

[deltic]

When I used to regularly travel between London and Birmingham it seemed like the majority of passengers got on the train clutching a drink and bag of food purchased at the wide range of station outlets. I cant see on-board catering surviving except on routes with large numbers doing a 2hr+ journey.

 

[LMS 4F]

Whatever the wishes of the passengers I feel that the finance will be deciding issue. Does any TOC currently make a profit on catering and if they do will that be the case in the future?
With reduced income from fares if the number travelling stays down on those before Covid, then it follows that takings from Food sales will be down as well.
The number of staff on trains serving food and all the back office staff who support them will still cost the same and the temptation must be for management to look at cost saving and there are ways this can be achieved.
I can also see that once one TOC has gone down that route the rest will rush to follow.

 

[deltic]

Whatever the wishes of the passengers I feel that the finance will be deciding issue. Does any TOC currently make a profit on catering and if they do will that be the case in the future?
With reduced income from fares if the number travelling stays down on those before Covid, then it follows that takings from Food sales will be down as well.
The number of staff on trains serving food and all the back office staff who support them will still cost the same and the temptation must be for management to look at cost saving and there are ways this can be achieved.
I can also see that once one TOC has gone down that route the rest will rush to follow.

I dont think any TOC makes money on catering. Some of the catering trolleys provided by third parties were subsidised by the TOCs.

 

[Purple Orange]

Whatever the wishes of the passengers I feel that the finance will be deciding issue. Does any TOC currently make a profit on catering and if they do will that be the case in the future?
With reduced income from fares if the number travelling stays down on those before Covid, then it follows that takings from Food sales will be down as well.
The number of staff on trains serving food and all the back office staff who support them will still cost the same and the temptation must be for management to look at cost saving and there are ways this can be achieved.
I can also see that once one TOC has gone down that route the rest will rush to follow.

We also need to remember that passengers may expect the facilities of a trolley or shop to be part of the service. TOCs may not make any money on catering, but it may put passengers off travelling on the train if it is not there.

 

[PupCuff]

We also often hear the mantra 'going forward the railway will need more staff, not less' (admittedly generally when they're looking to take guards off trains or close booking offices or whathaveyou) and a reduction in on train catering also equals a reduction in on train staffing. If the railway is to be seen as a customer focused industry I think it's important we do have a suitable number of staff on trains to deliver that and catering is a good way of delivering that whilst also providing incentives for customers to spend more on first class travel vice standard - and for those, on 'additional purchases' during their journey.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Would hope there's something. Many IC services in Italy have no catering (unless an enterprising local gets on) and it's definitely not a plus point. Likewise all (I believe) long distance non TGV SNCF trains have no catering and it's definitely off putting. There's something very enjoyable about travelling on a train and being able to sit and drink a coffee.

I seem to recall a trolley on an SNCF Intercities train from Toulon to St Raphael when I lived out there a few years ago but may be mistaken.

I wonder if post HS2 the opportunity for a slightly slower, more relaxing service with catering could be introduced on certain trunk routes, almost like the Gerald

 

[deltic]

We also need to remember that passengers may expect the facilities of a trolley or shop to be part of the service. TOCs may not make any money on catering, but it may put passengers off travelling on the train if it is not there.

That was the BR argument for providing a full meal service to attract first class passengers. Given that virtually no-one is allowed first class travel on expenses any more not sure the numbers add up now. Need to attract quite a few additional full fare paying passengers to cover the losses on-board catering makes.

 

[Purple Orange]

I wonder if post HS2 the opportunity for a slightly slower, more relaxing service with catering could be introduced on certain trunk routes, almost like the Gerald

I doubt it. I’d expect the slower WCML & MML services to be more like London Northwestern. I still think we will see catering on HS2, but it will be a simple shop.

 

[Purple Orange]

That was the BR argument for providing a full meal service to attract first class passengers. Given that virtually no-one is allowed first class travel on expenses any more not sure the numbers add up now. Need to attract quite a few additional full fare paying passengers to cover the losses on-board catering makes.

There is a world of difference between offering a full meal and the convenience of getting refreshments, just as you would from a service station.

 

[RT4038]

Given that virtually no-one is allowed first class travel on expenses any more not sure the numbers add up now.

Not so sure about that. Still plenty of custom for First Class on my line.

 

[Purple Orange]

Not so sure about that. Still plenty of custom for First Class on my line.

There may still be custom, but the majority of travel policies for companies is based on standard class travel, with some exceptions. I.e. VP & Director level or travelling with clients. Not until the travel needs gets to being a 7 hour flight does business class kick in. Most businesses recognise that standard class train travel is absolutely adequate, with working on the train expected. The trouble is, TOCs do not cater for business travel very well.

 

[RT4038]

There may still be custom, but the majority of travel policies for companies is based on standard class travel, with some exceptions. I.e. VP & Director level or travelling with clients. Not until the travel needs gets to being a 7 hour flight does business class kick in. Most businesses recognise that standard class train travel is absolutely adequate, with working on the train expected. The trouble is, TOCs do not cater for business travel very well.

If most businesses recognise that standard class travel is perfectly adequate, with working on the train expected, then the train is presumably catering for business travel very well. (Because if businesses did not think it was adequate, they would buy First Class tickets for their staff).
Of course businesses may have travel policies based on standard class travel and expect their staff to work on the train purely for a cost saving measure, and don't really care about the conditions that their staff have to endure travelling and working under these circumstances. However, I expect these companies would not wish to sell their First Class products at standard class prices, so nor should they expect train companies to either.

 

[Purple Orange]

If most businesses recognise that standard class travel is perfectly adequate, with working on the train expected, then the train is presumably catering for business travel very well. (Because if businesses did not think it was adequate, they would buy First Class tickets for their staff).
Of course businesses may have travel policies based on standard class travel and expect their staff to work on the train purely for a cost saving measure, and don't really care about the conditions that their staff have to endure travelling and working under these circumstances. However, I expect these companies would not wish to sell their First Class products at standard class prices, so nor should they expect train companies to either.

No, it doesn’t mean that TOCs are adequately providing a good enough service for those travelling on business. It just means that business is prioritising cost savings. All that TOCs need to provide is better WiFi and more space to have a laptop open on a table. Currently they do not do that very well.

I take it that you mostly travel for leisure or outside of peak hours? Or do you work for a TOC? You seem very defensive of the first class service.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I nearly always travel solo and would only even consider using the shop on the Pendolino if I was in coach C as i dont trust leaving my valuables / luggage alone for any great length of time. Lucky for me im not a tea or coffee drinker but coupled with the fact that at Euston and other main terminus stations have an abundance of catering choice to buy before you board either within it or outside ,I'd now be surprised if Avanti aren't looking again at their refurb spec and considering binning the shop altogether.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Would hope there's something. Many IC services in Italy have no catering (unless an enterprising local gets on) and it's definitely not a plus point. Likewise all (I believe) long distance non TGV SNCF trains have no catering and it's definitely off-putting. There's something very enjoyable about travelling on a train and being able to sit and drink a coffee.

TGVs have a bar area with food, but it's off-putting and disincentivises 1st class travel.

 

[Andy Pacer]

And its not just business travellers in first class, in my experience on longer journeys it is a mix of business and leisure travellers. Pensioners on a day trip who can afford First are usually in evidence, and I'm sure they appreciate the catering.