Validity of Off peak London Euston (EUS) - Machynlleth (MCN)

[Ticket Man]

Bit of a tricky one here

Not wanting to wrongly charge a customer i need a second opinion on this

Customer comes down for the 08:23 EUS - Wolverhampton [WVH] with a Outward portion of an off peak return SOH - MCN with a maltese cross and routed via birmingham. I thought that it wasn't valid until after 09:05 like most north wales tickets but was presented with information to the contrary.
I give the customer the benifit of the doubt and after some digging on AVB i find that it is valid out of south hampstead after 04:15. AVB mentions nothing about restrictions though euston which leads me to belive it is valid but after phoning NRE, im told that its not.

Is it or is it not valid out of Euston before 09:05?

 

[gordonthemoron]

eastcoast website says it's valid on 08:43

 

[tony_mac]

Nationail rail website also says that South Hampstead to Machynlleth is valid, including the 0643 and 0843 trains from Euston.

(BTW, station names are handy so that other people can read it.)

 

[Mojo]

Yes, as Avantix says, it's valid any time after 0415.

 

[sonic2009]

FIRST journey the ticket can be used is from south hampstead is the 0602..

 

[rail-britain]

This might be an interesting similarity to split tickets, so as to avoid "peak" restrictions on Virgin Trains, thus saving money

Purchase a ticket starting at a station other than London Euston (but for which London Euston would be the next boarding point)
It may be slightly more expensive, but permits travel on a service that would otherwise be deemed as "peak"

 

[455driver]

(BTW, station names are handy so that other people can read it.)

Or maybe he wants to show how clever he is, no matter how often it gets posted about station names it just keeps happening :roll:

Maybe posts that dont mention the station names at the start should be deleted and a PM sent to the OP (Original Poster )

 

[Ticket Man]

(BTW, station names are handy so that other people can read it.)

Sorry dear chap,

455driver nice presumption btw, if only we were all as insightful as to read others intensions so well as you.
I have not posted to much on here and was not aware that station codes were not allowed

rail-britain, whislt that seems the case most tickets that start some where else and travel though large stations do list the restrictions of said stations. But in the case of south hampstead, it looks as if this has been an oversight by retail

I take my hat off to the customer who had this ticket, think thats the people 1, the man 0

 

[A60K]

Or maybe he wants to show how clever he is, no matter how often it gets posted about station names it just keeps happening :roll:

Maybe posts that dont mention the station names at the start should be deleted and a PM sent to the OP (Original Poster )

If you want to lose posters from the forum then that's an excellent way to proceed - otherwise I'm not sure what that achieves.

 

[yorkie]

Station codes are fine but we do ask if you can say the station once initially with the code in brackets, that is much appreciated

but after phoning NRE, im told that its not.

NRE are clueless and cannot be relied upon to give accurate advice. (Sorry; you probaby already knew that! )

 

[Ticket Man]

NRE are clueless and cannot be relied upon to give accurate advice. (Sorry; you probaby already knew that! )

Thats true, Machynlleth was understood to be maccslefield, maidstone, maidenhead and any other station you can think of beginning with MA. Quoting the station code was about as useful as climbing up a step ladder to investigate what that wire is above the trains.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

If I'm ever in the situation where I have to ring NRE - which I try not to - I've given up trying to make them understand names, and tell them the 3 letter code phonetically so they can type it in.

eg: "Echo Uniform Sierra" would be EUS = London Euston

 

[b0b]

I'm clearly missing something here but isn't the traveler doubling back through South Hampstead?

 

[yorkie]

The only easement I can find that may apply is this:

"Journeys from Kensington Olympia and Willesden Jn made on tickets with a cross-London marker may double back from Euston. This easement applies in both directions."

Common sense would suggest that it would also apply for journeys from intermediate stations and that would include South Hampstead.

However it's generally accepted that if a ticket has a + then it is valid via London and that overrules the "no doubling back" rule.

For example, Hemel Hempstead to Glasgow Stns has a +Any Permitted fare that costs more than the Not London, and also costs more than a ticket from London.

 

[tony_mac]

From section F

Any routeing point can be used, provided it does not make the journey double back through the origin or destination station unless the fare permits (for example Ealing Broadway to Swindon via London).

Ealing Broadway to Swindon has a routeing +Any Permitted; exactly the same as South Hampstead to Macyhhnlhhlelleltthhth, so we must assume that the + means the fare permits doubling back through London.

Oddly enough, the eastcoast site allows Welshpool to South Hampstead via Euston, but not Liverpool to South Hampsted.

 

[clagmonster]

My interpretation is that South Hampsted is on the Watford DC lines, at a point where they are running parralel to the WCML, which is a completely separate route. There are no platforms on the WCML, so whilst the two lines are adjacent, there is no doubling back involved as when you go north on the WCML, you pass alongside West Hampsted station not through it. I would argue the same at Kilburn High Rd, but from points north of there you may not travel via Euston as you would be doubling back through Queens Park.
Similarly, wouldn't be breaking any rules regarding doubling back if you travelled from Watford High St-Bushey then north on the WCML. The only difference between the two cases is that at South Hampsted the DC lines are adjacent to the WCML, but at Watford High St they are not.

 

[b0b]

Ah yeah, I forgot the + effectively means a complete journey consisting of a journey to london, followed by a journey from london. thanks.

looks like the traveller has found an interestng loophole!

 

[merlodlliw]

Bit of a tricky one here

Not wanting to wrongly charge a customer i need a second opinion on this

Customer comes down for the 08:23 EUS - Wolverhampton [WVH] with a Outward portion of an off peak return SOH - MCN with a maltese cross and routed via birmingham. I thought that it wasn't valid until after 09:05 like most north wales tickets but was presented with information to the contrary.
I give the customer the benifit of the doubt and after some digging on AVB i find that it is valid out of south hampstead after 04:15. AVB mentions nothing about restrictions though euston which leads me to belive it is valid but after phoning NRE, im told that its not.

Is it or is it not valid out of Euston before 09:05?

scroll down the newsletter,a bit about it here http://sarpa.info/pdf archive/sarpa50.pdf page 7

 

[Ticket Man]

If any rail employee tells you it’s 1130 or something like that and you must buy
the full fare Anytime, they’re talking complete tosh.

Talking tosh is a bit naughty, whilst a member of staff would be wrong for challenging a customer over this restriction, they are only doing what their training tells them to do. Before the other day when I raised this issue, had the customer not been so well prepared then the situation would have probably not worked out as well as it did.
These problems are made worse by the fact that like said in the referenced document, official sources don't agree on what the restrictions are.

 

[Deerfold]

Talking tosh is a bit naughty, whilst a member of staff would be wrong for challenging a customer over this restriction, they are only doing what their training tells them to do. Before the other day when I raised this issue, had the customer not been so well prepared then the situation would have probably not worked out as well as it did.
These problems are made worse by the fact that like said in the referenced document, official sources don't agree on what the restrictions are.

It might be what they've been trained to say, and they might be saying it with sincerity, but it remains tosh if it's not what the restrictions on the ticket are. I agree it's not your fault if you've been inaccurately trained.

 

[Greenback]

The ridculous complexity of the restrictions is also a contributory factor. No offence should be taken at the use of the words 'talking tosh'. The article is just reassuring people that the information they are giving is right, and anyone who syas differently is wrong,

 

[b0b]

My interpretation is that South Hampsted is on the Watford DC lines, at a point where they are running parralel to the WCML, which is a completely separate route. There are no platforms on the WCML, so whilst the two lines are adjacent, there is no doubling back involved as when you go north on the WCML, you pass alongside West Hampsted station not through it.

At the north end of the WCML, Newton station has no platforms on the WCML but is clearly shown on the maps in the routeing guide, so I don't think you can use the lack of platforms as a way to avoid the double back rule.

 

[Ticket Man]

At the north end of the WCML, Newton station has no platforms on the WCML but is clearly shown on the maps in the routeing guide, so I don't think you can use the lack of platforms as a way to avoid the double back rule.

that is indeed the case, South Hampstead is classed as being on the WCML.

That said, in this case the doubling back rule was over-ruled by the presence of the maltese cross on the ticket

 

[clagmonster]

At Newton, there are crossovers at each end of the station that would allow a train travelling on the WCML to travel through the station, so I don't think that it is a comparable case.
This map on the Network Rail timetable shows the DC lines and the WCML as two separate lines:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May10/timetables/MapTable59.pdf

For a comparison, where there are trains running on the same line but shown in different timetables, the below map shows the Manchester-Clitheroe table 94 trains as passing through bus not stopping at the likes of Moses Gate, but both these and the Manchester-Preston table 82 trains share the same line:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May10/timetables/MapTable82.pdf

However, I do accept that the schematic map, which is a part of the same publication, shows both the DC lines and the WCML as the same line, so it is a bit of a grey area.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May10/Schematic Map.pdf

Note that all these maps are part of the National Rail Timetable, which is used by the routeing guide for the calculation of the shortest route.

If we were to take the assumption that this is a case of doubling back, I would say that this ticket is not valid for travel northbound on the WCML. The Maltese cross merely states that the ticket is valid on the London Underground should a cross London transfer be a part of a passengers chosen valid route. In this case, I suspect that Marylebone and Paddington are valid routes, so the Matese cross allows the cross London transfer Euston-Marylebone/Paddington. The Maltese cross does not allow doubling back,

 

[b0b]

The Maltese cross merely states that the ticket is valid on the London Underground should a cross London transfer be a part of a passengers chosen valid route. In this case, I suspect that Marylebone and Paddington are valid routes, so the Matese cross allows the cross London transfer Euston-Marylebone/Paddington. The Maltese cross does not allow doubling back,

But the maltese cross also means a route via London is a permitted route.

From the NRG Instructions Step 6:
If the routeing code is "LONDON", for all journeys via London you will need to cross reference routeing codes applicable "to London" with the code for the "from London" leg of the journey.

Examples section:
If there is a route “LONDON” as one of the permitted routes in the Routeing Guide, the range of permitted routes via London is discovered by the following method:
1. Look up the permitted routes from the origin routeing point to London.
2. Look up the permitted routes from London to the destination routeing point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At Newton, there are crossovers at each end of the station that would allow a train travelling on the WCML to travel through the station, so I don't think that it is a comparable case.

A train can leave Euston on the DC lines and join the WCML at Watford.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

that is indeed the case, South Hampstead is classed as being on the WCML.

That said, in this case the doubling back rule was over-ruled by the presence of the maltese cross on the ticket

What is the point of Easement 71?

"Tickets routed via London may be used to double back between Victoria and Clapham Junction"

 

[SignalEngineer]

Bit of a tricky one here

Not wanting to wrongly charge a customer i need a second opinion on this

Customer comes down for the 08:23 EUS - Wolverhampton [WVH] with a Outward portion of an off peak return SOH - MCN with a maltese cross and routed via birmingham. I thought that it wasn't valid until after 09:05 like most north wales tickets but was presented with information to the contrary.
I give the customer the benifit of the doubt and after some digging on AVB i find that it is valid out of south hampstead after 04:15. AVB mentions nothing about restrictions though euston which leads me to belive it is valid but after phoning NRE, im told that its not.

Is it or is it not valid out of Euston before 09:05?

The answer here is the ticket has a ticket restriction code 2T (travel on any train after 0415 M-F)

I happen to be another customer who has been making this journey (and also South Hampstead to Aberystwyth) on an almost weekly basis from June 2009 to July 2010 (present) working on the Cambrian Line resignalling project. My off-peak return tickets normally originate from Machynlleth or Aberystwyth to South Hampstead so I don't think in this instance is was me.

I run into problems at Euston (and occassionally onboard) when catching the 08:43 out of Euston (connecting with 10:09 departure from Birmingham New Street which runs only ever 2 hours).

Whenever I make this journey I usually have to show a letter from virgin customer services apologising for a similar incident in 2009 and confirming the validity.

On 22nd June I was refused boarding on the 08:43 at Euston. The ticket inspectors noticed my letter was dated 2009 and so phoned the team leader to verify it. I produced other journey planners from 2010 showing validity but they insisted I wait. I told them that my connecting train was only every 2 hours and that if I didn't get this train my journey would be delayed by 2 hours. I asked them to verify it on their advantix machine but they didn't listen. I even asked if I could just buy another ticket onboard (as the gates were closing) but they insisted I wait for the team leader to arrive.

The team leader arrived just after the train departed and reviewed my situation. She wasn't convinced so took me up to the main ticket office to consult with further colleagues.

After a few more deliberations I suggested again that they verify for
themselves on their ticketing system and after about 5 mins in the office the Team
Leader came back out to tell me:
1) That what the letter stated was correct and that they therefore would have to (reluctantly) honour it.
2) It's not a normal condition so their staff wouldn't have known about it. It's a loop hole and that I was actually paying much cheaper fare than everyone else (I don’t believe this is a valid excuse).
3) That Arriva Trains Wales are continually changing their conditions so staff at Euston can't keep up with it (this is not an acceptable excuse in my opinion).
4) Not all train operating companies have the same software loaded on their Adantix machines (as ATW staff have told me they can check it) and hence Virgin staff at Euston can't verify my claim that my ticket is valid.
5) That she would endorse my ticket for travel on the 0843 train.
6) I should keep that letter, and print the other 2010 letter out and carry those and the endorsed ticket with me for future travels.
7) That she would brief her team to avoid the situation occurring again.

I repeated again to her that I had now been delayed 2 hours (my 4.5hr journey is now 6.5hours) and asked if I put in a claim for compensation which she said I was free to send it in. No further effort was made to offer any additional assistance (eg next train times) or compensation. This activity was concluded at 8:58am, 20 mins after I had first arrived for my train.

I should have complained to her manager on the spot but instead phoned virgin customer services (who have been helpful in the past). They apologised and arranged for me to have free access to the first class lounge and B'ham international so I could work while I waited.

At this time I made way down to Platform 3 to board the 0923 to Wolverhampton. There were ticket inspectors (a different group) and again I was stopped. I explained the situation and that I had just spent 20 mins sorting it out with their team lead. They saw the endorsement on the back of the ticket and asked me why it was valid..... After a few deliberations amongst the team the train manager who was present explained to them his theory on why it was valid and that he could check on his Advantix PDA. While he proceeded to do this the other inspectors had further thoughts and the original inspector then decided to let me go on. I never did find out
from the train manager if he managed to verify it or not.

I have since written a letter of complaint to Virgin Customer Services and am awaiting a response.

Any advice on how to prevent this from occuring again would be much appreciated. (my back up plan would be to buy a ticket just to get on the train and not be left waiting)

The training and attitude of ticket inspectors really needs to change. They always assume the customer is wrong. If in doubt they should check (especially if the customer says they have been told otherwise). Most operators seem to refer to certain trains being OFF-PEAK only, but it's really each individual ticket having different conditions, not the train.



=============

The first time this occurred was in September 2009 when gateline staff at Euston did not believe my ticket was valid. They initially ignored my attempts to explain and show my journey planner printout. After a 2nd opinion they still didn't believe me (they incorrectly said journey planner printout shows all trains not just valid ones even though I had pricing information on it). One inspector agreed to let me on the train if I bought a ticket from the train manager (as the train doors had already closed by this time). Another ticket inspector actually objected to that decision and wanted to make me wait for the next on (which would have meant a 2 hour delay). I tried to explain again the situation to the train manager who also wasn't convinced. She said I could be right but she didn't have time to check it on the computer and told me to take a seat and she would come around later to sell me a ticket. In the end she never came around. I did however write to Virgin to get a letter stating the ticket validity.

My apologies in advance for such a long post - JUST SO FRUATRATING!

 

[General Zod]

That really makes me want to scream.

 

[bengolding]

That is disgraceful. If I were you, I'd take it to the top. Email Chris Gibb, MD at VT at chris.gibb@virgintrains.co.uk. You can also try Tony Collins at tony.collins@virgintrains.co.uk. Virgin don't like bad publicity, so it may be worth contacting media about this, e.g. Guardian and see what response they get back from Virgin press office. Some of the gateline barrier people at Euston really can be a hastle in these circumstances.

At least you had the consolation of being able to use the First Lounge at Birmingham Intl.

Edit: On second thoughts, publicising this further may lead to the powers that be 'correcting' the anomaly.

 

[yorkie]

2) It's not a normal condition so their staff wouldn't have known about it.

I'd ask: How many of the thousands of restriction codes are "normal" and how many are not "normal"? How can they expect staff to "know" all restrictions? Surely they must look them up if they are in any doubt! If they can't look them up that's their problem and they have to assume it's valid.

It's a loop hole and that I was actually paying much cheaper fare than everyone else (I don’t believe this is a valid excuse).

There are millions of ticket combinations that are "loopholes". Tell them to deal with it.

3) That Arriva Trains Wales are continually changing their conditions so staff at Euston can't keep up with it (this is not an acceptable excuse in my opinion).

They should look it up! And it's not an ATW condition anyway.

4) Not all train operating companies have the same software loaded on their Adantix machines (as ATW staff have told me they can check it) and hence Virgin staff at Euston can't verify my claim that my ticket is valid.

Then they have to assume it is valid if they can't check!

5) That she would endorse my ticket for travel on the 0843 train.

No endorsement necessary. You could say you endorse her to breath

6) I should keep that letter, and print the other 2010 letter out and carry those and the endorsed ticket with me for future travels.

Should not be necessary

7) That she would brief her team to avoid the situation occurring again.

I'd like to know the content of the brief.

Barriers are not appropriate for Inter City services, except in the incredibly unlikely event that they are well manned by suitably qualified people, all with a good attitude, and all willing & able to look up correct validity of tickets, and no customers are ever delayed or badly treated. As there is no barrier line that confirms to this to the best of my knowledge, I remain opposed to them.

 

[SignalEngineer]

Thanks for taking the time to read my post and for the feedback....

I agree totally with Yorkie about the poor excuses... in fact they were trying to shift the blame while also implying that I was trying to cheat the system (and that took 20 mins to get to that point too). Another poor excuse I've had is 'not even a ticket to Glasgow is valid'...

I actually legitamitely make that whole journey but in any case the tickets conditions actually allow for break of journey of both legs and hence I could technically use the ticket from London to Birmingham and no longer illegally be travelling short.

With regards to carrying a letter... I do need it... if I hadn't had it I would have been knocked back everytime at the gate line (usually once every 2 weeks I get checked). Sometimes I ask for a seat reservation for that return journey if I know which day I will be travelling. I have requested form Virgin a signed letter stating the validity... The staff at Euston seem to think EVERY off-peak ticket is not valid of ANY train before 0930. Of course I don't expect staff to know the 3 inch thick fair conditions manual (or carry the CD) but agree with you that it's up to them to find out or let me through if there is doubt... but their attitude is that they are right unless proven otherwise...

Some of them are very dismissive, they don't even bother looking at my letter (moving on to the next passenger) and I sometimes have to wait till another inspector becomes free to state my case... other times I get told to go to confirm it with the ticket office (which I don't do because if I would miss the train)...

I'm still awaiting a response to my email but I may consider emailing further up the chain.