Ex Virgin Trains Voyagers, where could they go next?

[greatvoyager]

Electric stock is great.

But we are on a network where there's so little juice that the hourly extension of the TPE service north of Newcastle is having to run on diesel mode from Chathill to Edinburgh - whilst I'd love something like an 802/804 for XC, there may be issues on the network where there wouldn't be enough power to draw, so they'd end up staying on diesel mode (e.g. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if there were initially problems with a hypothetical "tri-mode" Voyager replacement from Reading towards Bournemouth.

So, whilst I'm not a fan of the Open Access plans for Blackpool/ Liverpool, I could understand if Virgin had to run on diesel because the wires didn't have sufficient power in them for this additional service - just speculating though

Aren't Avanti looking to run extra Liverpool services with AT300s?

 

[swt_passenger]

Electric stock is great.

But we are on a network where there's so little juice that the hourly extension of the TPE service north of Newcastle is having to run on diesel mode from Chathill to Edinburgh - whilst I'd love something like an 802/804 for XC, there may be issues on the network where there wouldn't be enough power to draw, so they'd end up staying on diesel mode (e.g. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if there were initially problems with a hypothetical "tri-mode" Voyager replacement from Reading towards Bournemouth.

But not really a technical issue. NR just need to be forced by someone (DfT?) to improve the power capacity in line with planned future requirements, rather than starting out just after the trains arrive with the TOC.
“Just enough just in time”, rather than “not enough just a bit late”...

 

[greatvoyager]

But not really a technical issue. NR just need to be forced by someone (DfT?) to improve the power capacity in line with planned future requirements, rather than starting out just after the trains arrive with the TOC.
“Just enough just in time”, rather than “not enough just a bit late”...

It would be good if they could do that.

 

[tbtc]

But not really a technical issue. NR just need to be forced by someone (DfT?) to improve the power capacity in line with planned future requirements, rather than starting out just after the trains arrive with the TOC.
“Just enough just in time”, rather than “not enough just a bit late”...

Agreed - I think that poorly performing TOCs have allowed the DFT/NR a bit of a free pass for not delivering their side of things - too many infrastructure things are "last minute"

I was just making the general point that electrify supply issues may be a regrettable reason why Voyagers may end up running entirely under the wires (and also possibly a reason why long distance TOCs may be reluctant to order pure electric trains in future?)

 

[greatvoyager]

Agreed - I think that poorly performing TOCs have allowed the DFT/NR a bit of a free pass for not delivering their side of things - too many infrastructure things are "last minute"

I was just making the general point that electrify supply issues may be a regrettable reason why Voyagers may end up running entirely under the wires (and also possibly a reason why long distance TOCs may be reluctant to order pure electric trains in future?)

Agree, though it would be nice if 221s worked on lined that had at least some unelectrified sections.

 

[DavidGrain]

If the DfT through the franchising agreements specify the levels of service, then the DfT through Network Rail are responsible for ensuring that the power supply is sufficient to run the services. Or have I missed something here?

 

[greatvoyager]

If the DfT through the franchising agreements specify the levels of service, then the DfT through Network Rail are responsible for ensuring that the power supply is sufficient to run the services. Or have I missed something here?

You'd have thought so, but in all honesty I'm not sure.

 

[greatvoyager]

Agreed - I think that poorly performing TOCs have allowed the DFT/NR a bit of a free pass for not delivering their side of things - too many infrastructure things are "last minute"

I was just making the general point that electrify supply issues may be a regrettable reason why Voyagers may end up running entirely under the wires (and also possibly a reason why long distance TOCs may be reluctant to order pure electric trains in future?)

It never fails to amaze me that diesel trains are used on fully electrified lines.

 

[greatvoyager]

I agree that all the 221's should go to XC but I also think the 222's should also go to XC but focus the Voyagers on one route and the Meridians on the other, such as all Sheffield/North East services as 221's and all Manchester's as 222's.
I do not think that Virgin's proposed open access Liverpool should use the 221's not just because they could go to XC but also because the whole route is electrified (although I would rather a second Liverpool service be another operator than Avanti so that there is more competition such as on the ECML).

You make a good point.

 

[greatvoyager]

The most likely options for them seem to be CrossCountry, Virgin or an open access operator.

 

[The Ham]

If the DfT through the franchising agreements specify the levels of service, then the DfT through Network Rail are responsible for ensuring that the power supply is sufficient to run the services. Or have I missed something here?

You'd have thought, however that certainly want the case when it came to SWR where they've not implemented a change in timetables as NR told then there wasn't the power and if the DfT wanted it to happen (as per the franchise agreement) then the DfT would have to pay for it.

 

[greatvoyager]

You'd have thought, however that certainly want the case when it came to SWR where they've not implemented a change in timetables as NR told then there wasn't the power and if the DfT wanted it to happen (as per the franchise agreement) then the DfT would have to pay for it.

I forgot that.

 

[greatvoyager]

Whatever happened to the bio-fuel experiment Virgin did in the 2007? I assume it must've failed?
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/rail-news/virgin-trains-launches-biodiesel-train/31849

 

[swt_passenger]

I forgot that.

It’s also the case on the northern ECML where TPE 802s remain on diesel through a significant stretch of the line that has had power restrictions ever since it was first electrified. It’s being done now, but will be a couple of years behind the rolling stock.

It’s not just SWR recent issues either, all 3 of the DC TOCs have been suffering power restrictions ever since they first started Mk1 stock replacement. NR make gradual improvements but have never caught up with all the additional and longer trains...

 

[greatvoyager]

It’s also the case on the northern ECML where TPE 802s remain on diesel through a significant stretch of the line that has had power restrictions ever since it was first electrified. It’s being done now, but will be a couple of years behind the rolling stock.

It’s not just SWR recent issues either, all 3 of the DC TOCs have been suffering power restrictions ever since they first started Mk1 stock replacement. NR make gradual improvements but have never caught up with all the additional and longer trains...

Ah, okay thanks for explaining.

 

[greatvoyager]

It’s also the case on the northern ECML where TPE 802s remain on diesel through a significant stretch of the line that has had power restrictions ever since it was first electrified. It’s being done now, but will be a couple of years behind the rolling stock.

It’s not just SWR recent issues either, all 3 of the DC TOCs have been suffering power restrictions ever since they first started Mk1 stock replacement. NR make gradual improvements but have never caught up with all the additional and longer trains...

I guess diesel is a sure bet on all services, but it still seems wasteful to use 221s on a fully electrified line. I hope it does get sorted.

 

[HSTEd]

It’s not just SWR recent issues either, all 3 of the DC TOCs have been suffering power restrictions ever since they first started Mk1 stock replacement. NR make gradual improvements but have never caught up with all the additional and longer trains...

I know I'm a horrible pedant, but technically there are four DC-dominated TOCs...... (indeed Merseyrail is the only DC-only TOC that I can think of)
But I'll get my coat......


If they (DfT/SWR) want power supply upgrades, someone has to pay for them.....

 

[swt_passenger]

I know I'm a horrible pedant, but technically there are four DC-dominated TOCs...... (indeed Merseyrail is the only DC-only TOC that I can think of)
But I'll get my coat......


If they (DfT/SWR) want power supply upgrades, someone has to pay for them.....

I take your point about the far north. I wonder if their new stock will be free from power issues. IIRC even power use for air conditioning was considered an unpredicted issue down here. I think the SWR blame is mainly with DfT - it was them who proposed extra services all over the place in the ITT...

 

[greatvoyager]

I know I'm a horrible pedant, but technically there are four DC-dominated TOCs...... (indeed Merseyrail is the only DC-only TOC that I can think of)
But I'll get my coat......


If they (DfT/SWR) want power supply upgrades, someone has to pay for them.....

Fair point.

 

[greatvoyager]

I take your point about the far north. I wonder if their new stock will be free from power issues. IIRC even power use for air conditioning was considered an unpredicted issue down here. I think the SWR blame is mainly with DfT - it was them who proposed extra services all over the place in the ITT...

Fair enough.

 

[greatvoyager]

I'm intrigued to see what is going to happen with them.

 

[greatvoyager]

Does anyone know if the small refresh on these units by AWC is going to be anything other than, I assume, new seat covers?

 

[greatvoyager]

Anyone know if Avanti are planning any repaints?

 

[greatvoyager]

Aren't Avanti looking to run extra Liverpool services with AT300s?

Either way I expect they could just run them on diesel.

 

[greatvoyager]

How many of the units are actually going to be required if VT get the open access application approved? Would there still be some available for XC?

 

[VT 390]

How many of the units are actually going to be required if VT get the open access application approved? Would there still be some available for XC?

There are 20 221's with Avanti at the moment and while I don't know how many Virgin would need I am sure they won't need all 20 unless they ran them all in pairs, so I would think there would at least be some available for XC to have.

 

[greatvoyager]

There are 20 221's with Avanti at the moment and while I don't know how many Virgin would need I am sure they won't need all 20 unless they ran them all in pairs, so I would think there would at least be some available for XC to have.

Thank you, I would've thought so too.

 

[Kieran1990]

If Virgin are successful in their liverpool open access proposal I reckon journey time could be roughly 2hrs30 with a 30 layover at each end so 6 hr round trip. Unsure how many return services they are bidding for but could see Virgin take up 10 probably.

 

[Chester1]

If Virgin are successful in their liverpool open access proposal I reckon journey time could be roughly 2hrs30 with a 30 layover at each end so 6 hr round trip. Unsure how many return services they are bidding for but could see Virgin take up 10 probably.

Hourly. There won't be much demand for doubling up alongside an all day 2tph Avanti service. 6 units rostered and 2 spare would be enough.

I am surprised that Grand Central have signed contracts to use Mark IV sets until December 2026 rather than use them until Voyagers start to go off lease.

 

[greatvoyager]

Hourly. There won't be much demand for doubling up alongside an all day 2tph Avanti service. 6 units rostered and 2 spare would be enough.

I am surprised that Grand Central have signed contracts to use Mark IV sets until December 2026 rather than use them until Voyagers start to go off lease.

Good point.