greatvoyager
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I'm hoping that the logical XC move happens, but then again logic doesn't always happen.
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Ex Virgin Trains Voyagers, where could they go next?
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greatvoyager
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Anyone think the Virgin open access service to Liverpool will be allowed to use them, considering that would be diesels under the wires, and the new operator is moving away from that.
swt_passenger
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Well we already know that Virgin trains (open access) have definitely applied to use them, according to their track access application.
I don’t think the new WCML operator’s decision to order new stock makes it any less likely that 221s will be used by the new OA service.
hooverboy
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would make more sense for virgin to run the meridians if open access gets approval, and then have 221's to XC.
sprinterguy
Veteran Member
The 222s would be incapable of using tilt on the WCML infrastructure, which I suggest makes them less suitable for the open access service, though admittedly Avanti's new AT-300s won't have it either.
Though I personally hope the open access proposal never sees the light of day as the redundant Avanti 221s would be better placed with Crosscountry in my opinion. Leave improving the Liverpool frequency to the franchised west coast operator.
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I'm not sure how I feel about it, I think it could be great but using 221s isn't a great idea as it is all electrified. I wonder if Stadler could make a tilting SMILE or Alstom could make a few new pendolinos...
VT 390
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I agree that all the 221's should go to XC but I also think the 222's should also go to XC but focus the Voyagers on one route and the Meridians on the other, such as all Sheffield/North East services as 221's and all Manchester's as 222's.
I do not think that Virgin's proposed open access Liverpool should use the 221's not just because they could go to XC but also because the whole route is electrified (although I would rather a second Liverpool service be another operator than Avanti so that there is more competition such as on the ECML).
LOL The Irony
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The 221's have been chosen by Virgin because first are getting rid of them. There are only 2 classes of tilting trains in operation in the UK, 221's being one of them and available. New builds would have to be ordered at great cost and would have to be cleared for the route. 221's are available now and are cleared for the entire WCML. Using any other train than a 221 is impossible with the current track access plan or the envisioned 125 mph running.
DavidGrain
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Do we yet know what stock Grand Central intend to use on their London Blackpool open access service? in June last year they said that they would launch the service in Spring 2020 and discussions on what stock would be used are in an advanced stage. If they can get the Voyagers in time this would seem logical as these are passed for service on the line. Their predecessor a few years ago said that they would use Pendolinos.
Bletchleyite
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No need, it's already been established that 80x without tilt are fine.
That's not true. Greater acceleration could mitigate the timings lost with non tilt speeds.
RealTrains07
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Exactly and only new trains can do that!
221s are the best option for virgin for the moment
greatvoyager
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That's what I thought too.
Has this actually been proved - what will the first OA stop be and will they really stay in path through Leighton Buzzard etc before they get a chance to use the acceleration?
If they really accelerate so much better than 390s then there must be a risk they can’t use it without coming out the front of the path and hitting restricted aspects?
greatvoyager
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Hence why they were ordered to replace 221s.
swt_passenger
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90s and Mk4s. It’s been covered at length in the relevant thread, I’d have a look there:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-central-and-start-spring-2020.165526/page-23
The Voyagers being referred to here will likely still be running on Avanti services for another 2 years at least.
anamyd
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It does definitely seem to be the plan for Virgin to "get back their" 221s (as was amusingly written on the Virgin Trains Wikipedia article, since corrected!) for their upcoming open-access operation. I'm guessing that the 222s would go to CrossCountry around the same time (December 2022) as EMR would have their 804s (sorry, "800s") by then.
@swt_passenger December 2022 (the planned start date) is nearly three years from now, so should be fine!
@swt_passenger December 2022 (the planned start date) is nearly three years from now, so should be fine!
swt_passenger
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Yes, however the poster I was replying to was suggesting the ex WCML might be used by GC much sooner...
greatvoyager
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It'll depend on delivery of the 80x to West Coast, they are due to delivered in 2022 and Avanti's 221 maintenance contract with Bombardier finishes in December 2022.
The Planner
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I’m going to grass ORR up to Greta.....Good luck with that one.
greatvoyager
Established Member
Very true.
greatvoyager
Established Member
Perhaps could happen.
py_megapixel
Established Member
The WCML is now electrified all the way to Blackpool, so it wouldn't necessarily be logical to use Voyagers unless they could be converted to electric power.
After all, why run diesel on routes which are entirely electrified?
Makes quite a bold assumption that the existing power can take additional electeic trains...
greatvoyager
Established Member
It would only be one extra each hour, not a massive increase.
greatvoyager
Established Member
Logically electric rolling stock would be better.
greatvoyager
Established Member
It depends if its approved, and also if there are already plans for the 221s which we haven't been told about too.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Electric stock is great.
But we are on a network where there's so little juice that the hourly extension of the TPE service north of Newcastle is having to run on diesel mode from Chathill to Edinburgh - whilst I'd love something like an 802/804 for XC, there may be issues on the network where there wouldn't be enough power to draw, so they'd end up staying on diesel mode (e.g. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if there were initially problems with a hypothetical "tri-mode" Voyager replacement from Reading towards Bournemouth.
So, whilst I'm not a fan of the Open Access plans for Blackpool/ Liverpool, I could understand if Virgin had to run on diesel because the wires didn't have sufficient power in them for this additional service - just speculating though
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