So, you're thinking of voting BNP because they're just misunderstood?

[ungreat]

. So why do we judge Islam based on the reactions of similar fringe groups?

Probably because we dont hear every 5 minutes on the news channels about christian terrorists blowing up all and sundry..unlike Islamic terrorists.

I live in a big muslim area and they DO NOT want to integrate.AT ALL. All they care about is their religion and judge its teachings above our laws.A young lad got his head sliced off a few years back and when the perpetrators were caught all they did was chant"Osama Bin Laden" in the cop car..It never made the national news because the victim was white.And thats a fact.

Turn the colours and they would be bleating still now....sorry,no sympathy for any religions with me,especially is friggin lam.Peaceful?Bollocks.No religion is peaceful..it's ALL a load of ****.

I was unfortunate enough to see the bus bomb in London on 7/7 so I have no sympathy for any religion or its zealots..the sooner that medieval claptrap is consigned to the dusty bin it truly deserves the better.And that includes Islam,Christian faith et ****ing cetera..Its all bull****.

 

[CarterUSM]

Probably because we dont hear every 5 minutes on the news channels about christian terrorists blowing up all and sundry..unlike Islamic terrorists.

I live in a big muslim area and they DO NOT want to integrate.AT ALL. All they care about is their religion and judge its teachings above our laws.A young lad got his head sliced off a few years back and when the perpetrators were caught all they did was chant"Osama Bin Laden" in the cop car..It never made the national news because the victim was white.And thats a fact.

Turn the colours and they would be bleating still now....sorry,no sympathy for any religions with me,especially is friggin lam.Peaceful?Bollocks.No religion is peaceful..it's ALL a load of ****.

I was unfortunate enough to see the bus bomb in London on 7/7 so I have no sympathy for any religion or its zealots..the sooner that medieval claptrap is consigned to the dusty bin it truly deserves the better.And that includes Islam,Christian faith et ****ing cetera..Its all bull****.

I think i'm with you there mate, there are more lives lost in the 'name' of god than anything else. It is amazing to think of all the scientific, moral, and philisophical advances in the world, and some people either want to control you, convert you, or kill you. Spirituality is a good thing in my eyes, but keep it in perspective.

 

[Kneedown]

TrainBrain185 and Kneedown display narrow-minded views and have done before. This is nothing new

So because our point of view differs that makes us narrow minded does it?

, two out of a thousand active members displaying these sort of views is not a bad showing. You always get the odd one or two, it's inevitable.

What makes you think it's just us? All thousand members havn't made their point of view known on this thread have they?

If they left I wouldn't be shedding any tears.

I wouldn't want you to, i don't come on here cos i'm lonely you know!

Let me get this right.
Someone starts an anti-BNP thread, everyone is expected to agree. Is that right? And you call ME narrow minded!

 

[yorkie]

So because our point of view differs that makes us narrow minded does it?

It's the views themselves that are narrow minded, I see you do not wish to discuss them! You have no answer to what I, Ralph, Me123 and others have said!

What makes you think it's just us? All thousand members havn't made their point of view known on this thread have they?

2 out of 1,000 expressing such views isn't a bad showing, and suggests there are less narrow-minded people here than on many other forums. On a forum used by football hooligans, then statistically it would be likely to be a far higher number of people expressing such unacceptable views.

I wouldn't want you to, i don't come on here cos i'm lonely you know!

Let me get this right.
Someone starts an anti-BNP thread, everyone is expected to agree. Is that right? And you call ME narrow minded!

You want to know what is 'expected'? I'd 'expect' a reasonable-minded person to agree that racism, prejudice and spreading religious intolerance are totally unacceptable.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Well, for once we agree Yorkie. We really can't continue like this!

Various points have been made on this thread which Kneedown and others have failed to answer. Is this because they cannot think of the answer? Or is it that they realise that they are in the wrong, but are still trying to grasp onto straws.

 

[Kneedown]

It's the views themselves that are narrow minded, I see you do not wish to discuss them! You have no answer to what I, Ralph, Me123 and others have said!

It's a large thread, and i have answered a fair bit if you look back. However, i have been away from the forum for a few days and so a bit has been added. I see the subject of Islam is one of them, however i must have missed any direct questions. I'll endeavour to go back and have another look when i get time. In the meantime, if yourself, or anyone else have any questions you'd really like answered, then feel free to refresh my slightly senior memory.

want to know what is 'expected'? I'd 'expect' a reasonable-minded person to agree that racism, prejudice and spreading religious intolerance are totally unacceptable.

At point have i ever condoned racism, prejudice or religious intolerance either here or anywhere else in my daily life. In careers on both the railway and previously in the Police Force, i have worked alongside, and professionally dealt with people from all backgrounds, races, nationalities, sexualities and religions, and never once has my professional conduct been called into question. My point is, and nothing more, that this Nation is full up. We are a small island with finite resources, and at some point immigration will have to stop. I believe that time is now. Even Caroline Lucas, leader of the Green Party, who are very pro-immigration, and MP for Brighton Pavillion believes that the world is over populated, and when interviewed by the BBC on election night stated that the human population needed to be controlled (I wonder if she has a "final solution" to this problem!)
I also believe that anyone who chooses to live here from overseas, must abide by our laws and if they choose to engage in criminal activity then they must leave. As regards refugee's from the other side of the world, then i have every sympathy for someone who is fleeing a war zone, but why pass through the many safe countries before finally claiming asylum here? The only answer can possibly be, to make use of the generous benefits system we have.
I have never criticised Islam as a whole, but i have in the past been venomous about radical Islam, as have many others.

If the above makes me narrow minded, then i'm narrow minded, along with with a sizable chunk of the rest of the country.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did you know that Islam literally translates into peace?

I don't know, maybe it does, but peace for the people on earth, or peace for the followers of Islam after the infidels have been destroyed or enslaved? Who knows!

they don't want to build a mosque on Ground Zero. They originally though of building a community center two blocks away. The Director of the Mayor's Office for Immigrant Affairs - himself a muslim - said that it was an attempt to stop extremism by integrating and socialising with younger muslims who are more likely to be taken in by the extremely small extremist splinter.

Two blocks away is pretty much near enough. Too close for most New Yorkers, and certainly for those who lost friends and loved ones. What would be the reaction from Helmand province if it were decided to build a Christian Church there to "build bridges with the Afghans". How about if the Irish Nationalist movements were to build "Community Centre's" in Omagh or Warrington to promote understanding?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Islam itself is a peaceful religion that does not condone violence, and amonst other things sets out clear rules on just wars. It does have an extremist sector, but so do most religions to a greater or lesser degree. Christianity even has extremists.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

I argree with you on the point that Christianity also has extremists. Back in the 80's when it was all kicking off in the Lebanon there were Christian militia's as well as Islamic one's. Even the Crusades were a form of Christian Extremism, but the fact is, there are no Christian extremist groups today that are committing atrocities on the scale of 9/11, Madrid, or 7/7.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my opinion, the Muslim community need to rid themselves of extremists. There needs to be a concerted effort on all muslim denominations to get these people out.

Absolutely right!.......So why don't they then? Giving up the extremists in their midst would be concrete proof that Islam is indeed a religion of peace and goodness, and if official opinion is correct, very few people would have to given up, so why isn't it happening?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which isn't supported by Islam. They condemned the actions of the few individuals who caused such destruction.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_sndgs03.html

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/religion/2008/04/07/why-did-so-many-muslims-seem-to-celebrate-911.html

Many celebrated though, the world over.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Two blocks away is pretty much near enough. Too close for most New Yorkers, and certainly for those who lost friends and loved ones. What would be the reaction from Helmand province if it were decided to build a Christian Church there to "build bridges with the Afghans". How about if the Irish Nationalist movements were to build "Community Centre's" in Omagh or Warrington to promote understanding?

You are missing the point. The Islamic religion is building the mosque, not the Islamic splinters. So the point about Irish Nationalists doesn't stand as they were a splinter group.

Also, there are muslims living in Britain and America - and I don't see a problem with this - so they have the right to be able to worship. There aren't the same amount of Christians living in Afghanistan. And if there were, I would expect the two to integrate fully and I doubt there would be a problem.

 

[Kneedown]

The well publicised incident was not "self defence".

Someone can be provoked and act well beyond "self defence".

At best, you're clutching at straws. If you really think that's a credible argument, well, the mind boggles!

I never said the response to the spitting incident was self defence, it was justifiable provocation. What i said was, can you conclusively prove that BNP members are involved in unprovoked violence, and if so, can you prove that members of other political parties are not.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Some celebrated. One thousand out of 1.57 billion. That's 0.000000006578947%.

Of course, that is only London, but I doubt the number would rise to anywhere near 1%.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I never said the response to the spitting incident was self defence, it was justifiable provocation. What i said was, can you conclusively prove that BNP members are involved in unprovoked violence, and if so, can you prove that members of other political parties are not.

If I was spat at, I would walk away and report it. Not try and beat the life out of the person.

Shall we have a look at the BNP member's criminal records?
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-bnp/BNP-a-party-of-convictions.php
The first two on the list are about having sex with children. That must be unprovoked violence.

 

[Kneedown]

You are missing the point. The Islamic religion is building the mosque, not the Islamic splinters. So the point about Irish Nationalists doesn't stand as they were a splinter group.

Also, there are muslims living in Britain and America - and I don't see a problem with this - so they have the right to be able to worship. There aren't the same amount of Christians living in Afghanistan. And if there were, I would expect the two to integrate fully and I doubt there would be a problem.

At best though it's still pretty poor taste siting it so close to the area where many suffered. It may not have been the Islamic religion as a whole that carried out the attack, but the fact remains that the attack was carried out in the name of Islam.
I think there would be a problem between Christians and Moslems in a very radical Afghanistan. Even fellow Moslems are persecuted by the radical elements there. Even in one of the Islamic countries generally percieved as more moderate such as Saudi Arabia, you would be arrested for being in possession of a Bible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some celebrated. One thousand out of 1.57 billion. That's 0.000000006578947%.

Of course, that is only London, but I doubt the number would rise to anywhere near 1%.

According to the BBC there are 1.6mil Moslems in Britain. So what percentage of that is 1000? Afraid i can't do maths!
Of course, you have to make an assumption for all those who were unable to get to London at the time, and also take into account celebration going off in other cities. Bradford was one i seem to recall.

If I was spat at, I would walk away and report it. Not try and beat the life out of the person.

Thats your choice and prerogative. You can't castigate others for taking a different path.

Shall we have a look at the BNP member's criminal records?
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-bnp/BNP-a-party-of-convictions.php
The first two on the list are about having sex with children. That must be unprovoked violence.

Well, well, well, what a sorry bunch of individuals. I think it a pretty safe bet that the majority of those who were actually paid up members of the BNP, and not just spouting off, are not now. Certainly not the nonce! Unfortunately it is impossible to police who applies for membership of a political party. I note only a few were actual activists for the party. Were any of them UAF members infiltrating the party to cause as much mischief as poss? It's happened before!
How about a detailed breakdown now of the criminal offences committed by Lab/Con/Lib-Dem, and other parties members?
The bottom line is the BNP is stated to oppose violence and crime, and their views on nonces are even stronger.

 

[Greenback]

Local BNP activists in this part of the world organise marches and meetings (to which very few people actually attend), and make a great effort to publicise these events, knowing full well that troubkle will ensue when people opposed to their extremist views hold their own meetings and marches in response. When trouble falres as the two groups come into contact, it is difficult to prove exactly who is responsible (as in the spitting incident) for starting it. The BNP can claim they are only utilising their right to free speech, as can the other side.

The difference is that it's the BNP who make sure that their plans are well publicised in advance as they thrive on the conflict and confrontation that ensues. I have no idea when the next meeting or march in support of other political parties or causes is, but I always know when the BNP are planning soemthing because it is all over the place!

Kneedown, your arguments about the UK, and the world, being full up, is something that most sensible people will recognise as genuine concerns. We have a finite set of resources on this planet, finite land, food, etc, and we simply cannot sustain the rate of population growth that has occurred over the past half century. I don;t know what the answer is, but I'm sure it's not based on race or ethnic origin. It's also these arguments that the BNP put forward to try and justify their repellent beliefs about 'true Brits'.

As I have said, you and anyo0ne else are entitled to whatever beliefs you hold, and to vote for whoever you want. But apart from over population concerns, none of the BNP policies actually stand up to any degree of scrutiny.

 

[Oswyntail]

...it was justifiable provocation....

No such thing.

...
Thats your choice and prerogative. You can't castigate others for taking a different path.....

Yes you can - that is why both parties are at fault in the eyes of the law.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You can't castigate others for taking a different path.....

What does our legal system do then?

 

[Kneedown]

Local BNP activists in this part of the world organise marches and meetings (to which very few people actually attend), and make a great effort to publicise these events, knowing full well that troubkle will ensue when people opposed to their extremist views hold their own meetings and marches in response. When trouble falres as the two groups come into contact, it is difficult to prove exactly who is responsible (as in the spitting incident) for starting it. The BNP can claim they are only utilising their right to free speech, as can the other side.

The difference is that it's the BNP who make sure that their plans are well publicised in advance as they thrive on the conflict and confrontation that ensues. I have no idea when the next meeting or march in support of other political parties or causes is, but I always know when the BNP are planning soemthing because it is all over the place!

I personally don't see the point of demo's. As you say, they are a flashpoint for trouble. For free speech to prevail however, people must be allowed to protest, and if a protest is being held it is the duty of the relevant organisers to inform the authorities, ie Police, Council etc of their intentions. An unpublicised demo would probably be an illegal one. The anti BNP groups must know that if they organise a counter rally at the same time and place then there is the likelihood of trouble. Perhaps they even court it, making sure someone has a camcorder standing by to film the result.

Kneedown, your arguments about the UK, and the world, being full up, is something that most sensible people will recognise as genuine concerns. We have a finite set of resources on this planet, finite land, food, etc, and we simply cannot sustain the rate of population growth that has occurred over the past half century. I don;t know what the answer is, but I'm sure it's not based on race or ethnic origin. It's also these arguments that the BNP put forward to try and justify their repellent beliefs about 'true Brits'.

As I have said, you and anyo0ne else are entitled to whatever beliefs you hold, and to vote for whoever you want. But apart from over population concerns, none of the BNP policies actually stand up to any degree of scrutiny.

The answer to overpopulation as far as Britain is concerned is certainly not to let more people in. Another thought, whilst we are courting skilled migrants from third world countries to supposedly improve our lives here, more skills are being lost from the third world. A Doctor may come here from say, Nigeria, who will contribute to cutting the waiting lists a little, but it's one less Doctor in Nigeria who's skills are more desperately needed in an area where Malaria and other nasties are rife, and diseases which we shrug off here are killers.
How will the Third World ever join the "First World" if the west keeps taking their best and most talented people?

No such thing.

Maybe not strictly in a legal sense, but provocation is a defence. Look at the case of Peter Harvey. That a mild man could be driven to do what he did shows that people do have a breaking point.

that is why both parties are at fault in the eyes of the law.

No one is at fault in the eyes of the law as i believe no complaint was made and therefore no crime committed?

 

[EM2]

A Doctor may come here from say, Nigeria, who will contribute to cutting the waiting lists a little, but it's one less Doctor in Nigeria who's skills are more desperately needed in an area where Malaria and other nasties are rife, and diseases which we shrug off here are killers.
How will the Third World ever join the "First World" if the west keeps taking their best and most talented people?

Because they earn so much more here, that they can send money home, thus giving their other family members a chance to go to University and train as doctors, and they also often return home after a few years and use the skills they have gained here to train others in their home country.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

No one is at fault in the eyes of the law as i believe no complaint was made and therefore no crime committed?

Not true. A crime has been committed whether or not it is reported. The CPS can prosecute even if there is no complaint.

 

[90019]

IAbsolutely right!.......So why don't they then? Giving up the extremists in their midst would be concrete proof that Islam is indeed a religion of peace and goodness, and if official opinion is correct, very few people would have to given up, so why isn't it happening?

How can they "give up" the extremists? They didn't choose to make them muslim or accept them in the first place!
The extremists are the ones who decide that they're muslims, regardless of what the others say.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the above makes me narrow minded, then i'm narrow minded, along with with a sizable chunk of the rest of the country.

That doesn't.

I don't know, maybe it does, but peace for the people on earth, or peace for the followers of Islam after the infidels have been destroyed or enslaved? Who knows!

That does.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Kneedown, your arguments about the UK, and the world, being full up, is something that most sensible people will recognise as genuine concerns. We have a finite set of resources on this planet, finite land, food, etc, and we simply cannot sustain the rate of population growth that has occurred over the past half century. I don;t know what the answer is, but I'm sure it's not based on race or ethnic origin. It's also these arguments that the BNP put forward to try and justify their repellent beliefs about 'true Brits'.

As I have said, you and anyo0ne else are entitled to whatever beliefs you hold, and to vote for whoever you want. But apart from over population concerns, none of the BNP policies actually stand up to any degree of scrutiny.

I think a big part of the problem that caused the rise of the BNP was that for a long time this sort of view was dismissed as racist, and still is by some on the other extream. This drove people over to the BNP. As I said in my previous post, it can be a major problem when those who hold moderate views are intollerant of those with more extream views as it tends to drive them to the real extreamists, who usually are far more tollerant.

The downfall of the BNP, shown by their poor performance at the election, has been that the mainstream has finally woken up to these sort of issues and is starting to take them seriously. Of cource, whether that's a victory for the BNP depends on your view of what they are. If they are a single or narrow issue party, then they have actually achieved their goal. Parties like that don't stand to get elected, and people don't vote for them in the hope they actually win (protest votes are normally aimed at parties with little chance of winning), their goal is to get their issues into the mainstream. Oviously if people see the BNP as a serious party with a real chance of getting MPs and having a say in parliament, then they have failed.

Just to go back to the point someone made about refugees passing through many safe countries to reach the UK, including other countries in Europe that have exactly the same rules on human rights etc. This is even more concerning when you take into account that the UK has no land boarders, making it one of the hardest countries in the world to illigally enter. People are prepared to risk their lives to do it, and many have died attempting it. What makes it harder for the average person to understand is that we don't tend to feel we live in a country like that. If it was some paradise, perhaps the America of the American Dream (itself largely false) that would be something, but it's not. No wonder people take the view that immigrants must be getting something we're not.

 

[Greenback]

I think a big part of the problem that caused the rise of the BNP was that for a long time this sort of view was dismissed as racist, and still is by some on the other extream. This drove people over to the BNP. As I said in my previous post, it can be a major problem when those who hold moderate views are intollerant of those with more extream views as it tends to drive them to the real extreamists, who usually are far more tollerant.

The downfall of the BNP, shown by their poor performance at the election, has been that the mainstream has finally woken up to these sort of issues and is starting to take them seriously. Of cource, whether that's a victory for the BNP depends on your view of what they are. If they are a single or narrow issue party, then they have actually achieved their goal. Parties like that don't stand to get elected, and people don't vote for them in the hope they actually win (protest votes are normally aimed at parties with little chance of winning), their goal is to get their issues into the mainstream. Oviously if people see the BNP as a serious party with a real chance of getting MPs and having a say in parliament, then they have failed.

Just to go back to the point someone made about refugees passing through many safe countries to reach the UK, including other countries in Europe that have exactly the same rules on human rights etc. This is even more concerning when you take into account that the UK has no land boarders, making it one of the hardest countries in the world to illigally enter. People are prepared to risk their lives to do it, and many have died attempting it. What makes it harder for the average person to understand is that we don't tend to feel we live in a country like that. If it was some paradise, perhaps the America of the American Dream (itself largely false) that would be something, but it's not. No wonder people take the view that immigrants must be getting something we're not.

I agree with pretty much all of that! In my experience, people have only become concerned in the last five years or so because of the flood of Poles arriving as economic migrants - of course it's OK for British workers to be economic migrants in the Middle East, or in Europe during the 1980's! People are now generally more aware of the issues as they have been affected by them, whether it's paying extra for food at the supermarket or seeing jobs being given to foreign workers who tend to work for less money. I don't think the BNP have raised thiese issues effectively themselves, but they have taken advantage of the greater awareness and sought to attract more support.

 

[TrainBrain185]

You are missing the point. The Islamic religion is building the mosque, not the Islamic splinters. So the point about Irish Nationalists doesn't stand as they were a splinter group.

Also, there are muslims living in Britain and America - and I don't see a problem with this - so they have the right to be able to worship. There aren't the same amount of Christians living in Afghanistan. And if there were, I would expect the two to integrate fully and I doubt there would be a problem.

Oh boy Ralph! You are very very naive with that comment. If you are that confident I suggest you take your fortnight's holiday in Afghanistan and see how much you would integrate.
Thats the problem. The Islamic religion does not want to conform or integrate with the western way of living, yet if you had the bottle to try and live on their home turf, by all means. Try and see if you get along.

 

[EM2]

Thats the problem. The Islamic religion does not want to conform or integrate with the western way of living, yet if you had the bottle to try and live on their home turf, by all means. Try and see if you get along.

And why should they? That is a classic rascist viewpoint, you're implying that they should conform to Christian views because they're better.
In any predominantly Muslim country, you can follow your own religious beliefs as long as you obey the law. There is a massive difference between culture and religion.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Oh boy Ralph! You are very very naive with that comment. If you are that confident I suggest you take your fortnight's holiday in Afghanistan and see how much you would integrate.

If it wasn't a war zone (and before you say anything, it's nothing to do with the vast majority of Muslims).

Why then can people go to places like Dubai - part of a Muslim country?

 

[Old Timer]

I think the point Trainbrain185 is trying to make is that the vast majority of Muslim governed Countries have strict laws which prohibit the practice of other religions and do not allow entry to clergy. That Religion is intolerant of all others.

Tolerance is a two-way street.

For example here is an illustration from Pakistan from 10th May

SIALKOT, PAKISTAN (Worthy News)-- Three Christian workers were detained and "tortured" by police and dismissed from their jobs in Pakistan's Punjab province for wearing a crucifix and church visits on Sundays, according to statements from the men, their priest and family members Wednesday, May 12. Local police said the Christians were taken into custody because of suspected "alcohol" related offenses.

Atif Masih, Kamran Masih and Naveed Gill, who worked at a local garments factory in the Paka Garah area of Sialkot city, were arrested May 4 on what they and relatives called "false" accusations of illegally selling alcoholic beverages. "We were arrested" by local police "and pressured to give a false statement that we sold alcohol," the workers alleged.

They claimed the real reason for the three-day detention was their decision to each wear a crucifix -- often used as a symbol of Christianity -- and their church visits. "The factory owner said that nobody would be allowed to wear a cross and called all Christian workers to work on Sundays. He also threatened us with dire consequences after we asked for permission to visit church on Sunday," added the workers, who joined the factory last year.

Factory owner Rana Ejaz said local police "advised" him to make the alcohol sale accusations "so that I can terminate" agreements with the Christians. Ejaz declined to answer if the Christian workers sold alcohol on his premises or whether he fired them because they were each wearing a cross.

An example from Somalia 3rd May

MOGADISHU, SOMALIA (Worthy News)-- Fighters of Somalia's feared Islamic militant group al-Shabab have killed another Somali Christian as part of an apparent crackdown on "non-Islamic culture," rights activists said.

In comments monitored by BosNewsLife Monday, May 3, U.S.-based advocacy group International Christian Concern (ICC) said three al-Shabab gunmen killed Mu’awiye Hilowle Ali in front of his house in the town of Afgoye, about 25 kilometers (15 miles) west of the capital Mogadishu.

"They executed him by firing from close range and hitting his head and chest. He died on the spot," ICC said.

The Islamists had previously accused Ali and his family of spreading religious discord, ICC added. Trained in the former Soviet Union, Ali reportedly served in the Somali armed forces before converting to Christianity in 2006.

His body has temporarily been buried in the compound of his residential house after members of al-Shabab refused to allow his burial to be conducted in a public burial place, calling it Muslim territory, ICC said.

LARGE FAMILY

Ali is reportedly survived by a wife and ten children. He is among over a dozen Christians known to have been killed by militants within a year, ICC said.

Al-Shabab says it wants to establish an Islamic government based on Sharia law. In March al-Shabab official Sheik Ali Husein warned Christians and other residents that his group wants "to get rid of the barbaric and non-Islamic culture in the country."

United Nations and European Union officials say the crackdown by militants is among the reasons why at least some 1.4 million people have been displaced within the country.

The Afgoye corridor, where Ali was killed, is home to around 360,000 people, the largest concentration of internally displaced people in the country, according to the European Commission Humanitarian Aid department (ECHO).

Over 5,000 soldiers from Uganda and Burundi are deployed in Somalia to help the fragile government control at least some parts of the capital, but Somalia is mainly lawless and suffering of anarchy and militant attacks.

CHURCH VICTIM

ICC called the Somali church the "most visible victim of the al-Shabab “holy-war” in Somalia.

Yet, it quoted at least one unidentified Somali church leader in Mogadishu as saying that the killings of Christians will "never succeed in stopping the church planting movement we see in Somalia today.”

ICC’s Regional Manager for Africa, Jonathan Racho, told BosNewsLife that “The plight of Christians and other innocent Somalis is increasing by the day as al-Shabab intensifies its jihad attacks."

Racho warned that the situation in Somalia "will continue to deteriorate unless the international community steps up its effort to contain the influence of al-Shabab."

Iran April 23rd

TEHRAN, IRAN (Worthy News)-- Iran's government has launched a massive crackdown on devoted Christians, including church leaders, as part of efforts to halt the growing Christian church in the Islamic nation, Iranian Christians and rights activists said Friday, April 23.

Additionally two young women face new charges after their recent released from prison for embracing Christianity despite their Muslim background, Worthy News and its partner agency BosNewsLife established.

Marzieh Amirizadeh Esmaeilabad and Maryam Rustampoor appeared in front of a court last week where they were told that a criminal investigation was launched into their alleged involvement in propagating Christianity and of apostasy, said Middle East Concern (MEC),
a major human rights group.

They were released in November amid international pressure after Rustampoor after spending 259 days in Tehran's notorious Evin prison.

MORE INCIDENTS

In another recent incident, on April 14, undercover security officers physically assaulted and detained Pastor Bahnam Irani, said Farsi Christian News Network (FCNN), which represents Iranian Christians.

FCNN said officers introduced themselves as agents of the Ministry of Information before invading Pastor Irani’s house-church in Karaj and taking him to an undisclosed location.

Some 10 believers attending the worship, who recently embraced Christianity, were forced to complete prepared documents revealing the activities and whereabouts of church leaders, Iranian Christians said. The attendees were reportedly told that they would be summoned to further questioning at a later date.

It was no isolated incident.

TEENAGER DETAINED

Christian rights activists said that in a similar occurrence, on April 11, Iran's Ministry of Information arrested 19 year old Daniel Shahri in his home in Isfahan. "When entering, the officers rendered an arrest warrant issued by the revolutionary court on charges of Internet related activity and forming a house-church," said U.S-based International Christian Concern (ICC).

The third reported arrest occurred on February 28, when Hamid Shafiee and his wife, Reyhaneh Aghajary, were forcefully taken from their home in Isfahan. "As of now, they remain in prison and are in poor health still awaiting charges to be brought against them," ICC added.

"As is often the case, arrests of Christians occur collectively and systematically. Once one Christian group is detained, security forces acquire additional information from interrogations, and from investigations of confiscated cell phones and computers which disclose the location of more Christians," the group added in a statement.

CHRISTIANS FLEE

Some Christians have managed to flee prosecution, Christians said. In one of the latest such cases, Mohammad Azbari, a Christian convert from Islam, reportedly received asylum in Kenya with his family on grounds of "religious persecution in Iran".

ICC Regional Manager for the Middle East, Aidan Clay, said “Iran fears the growth of the church, viewing it as a political and religious threat." Clay called the reported arrests "part of an ongoing tactic to torment, afflict and ultimately destroy the church." Yet, "just the opposite is happening in Iran. The church is not dying, but rather growing and maturing," the official added.

Clay said ICC has demanded the release of the detained Christians as "Freedom of religion must be a right of all people, and violations to that freedom must be fiercely condemned."

Iranian officials have not commented on the latest cases, but the government has often described reports of human rights abuses as Western and American propaganda.

Indonesia April 19th

JAKARTA, INDONESIA (Worthy News)-- A major Christian rights group has urged Indonesia’s Constitutional Court to repeal blasphemy laws that it claims have been "widely misused to persecute religious minorities" in the Islamic country.

Indonesia’s Constitutional Court is reviewing the blasphemy laws, introduced in 1965 and enshrined in Article 156A of the country’s Criminal Code, and a ruling is expected later this month, said Britain-based Christian Solidarity Worldwide (CSW).

The controversial legislation imposes a jail sentence of up to five years for those convicted of defamation against any of Indonesia’s six officially recognized religions of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Catholicism, Protestantism and Confucianism.

"Many religious figures, particularly those from religions outside the six officially recognized faiths, have been jailed and denied access to basic civil rights." CSW added.

CSW’s National Director, Stuart Windsor, said: “Religious freedom is a universal right enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and Indonesia’s own constitution."

Windsor said that ending the blasphemy laws in their current form would mean upholding the country’s "long tradition of religious freedom and pluralism."

These are just a few, but I think illustrate the point the poster was trying to make.

No doubt there will be someone ready to condemn and chant allegations of racism.

 

[TrainBrain185]

And why should they? That is a classic rascist viewpoint, you're implying that they should conform to Christian views because they're better.
In any predominantly Muslim country, you can follow your own religious beliefs as long as you obey the law. There is a massive difference between culture and religion.

When did I mention "conform to Christian views because they are better"? I never said that. The UK is very very tolerant by allowing the Muslim religion to integrate, but its still not enough. Muslims are allowed permission to build their places of worship in UK towns and City's. Do you think places like Tehran and Baghdad would allow to build a Christian church slap bang in the middle of their manor? No way! I am more flexible towards the Islamic religion here in the UK than they would ever be with me if I wanted to live the same standard of life in their homelands to that which I have here in Britain. If that makes me narrow minded, a racist, a bigot for saying that, then sadly, so be it. Finally, I have a great respect for Kneedown's thoughts and agree wholeheartedly with his comments.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the point Trainbrain185 is trying to make is that the vast majority of Muslim governed Countries have strict laws which prohibit the practice of other religions and do not allow entry to clergy. That Religion is intolerant of all others.

Tolerance is a two-way street.

For example here is an illustration from Pakistan from 10th May



An example from Somalia 3rd May
Iran April 23rd
Indonesia April 19th
These are just a few, but I think illustrate the point the poster was trying to make.

No doubt there will be someone ready to condemn and chant allegations of racism.

I appreciate you taking the time providing these comments. Thankyou for understanding the points I am trying to convey.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

OT, you make a valid point. Dubai (as used in my example) is a heavily commercialised place, built for tourism, whereas others are not.

However, just because it is done in other countries - should we stoop to the lowest common denominator?

And also - is it the religion itself being intolerant, or is it the countries governing body?

 

[Old Timer]

OT, you make a valid point. Dubai (as used in my example) is a heavily commercialised place, built for tourism, whereas others are not.

However, just because it is done in other countries - should we stoop to the lowest common denominator?

And also - is it the religion itself being intolerant, or is it the countries governing body?

Ralph I really dont want to become embroiled into what will ultimately become a slanging match once the racism jibes start being thrown about.

My point is quite simple.

There are freedoms within the UK that are not available in Muslim Countries and human rights denied to other faiths in those Countries. If you go to those Countries you are expected to conform and under no circumstances will they tolerate any challenge to Islam.

People coming to the UK should therefore be mindful that this is predominantly a Christian Country and not seek to demand rights that they deny others, nor should they demand special treatment.

It is the putting of Muslims and Islam on a protected pedestal, where no-one is allowed to raise any concern whatsoever at risk of being labelled racist is what fans the flames of discontent amongst those who feel they have no voice or say over things.

For example many many years ago when Birmingham held a Grand Prix, all was OK until the Central Mosque was built, at which point the Mullahs complained bitterly about the noise over ONE weekend a year. They were rather silent over the fact that it was their practice to call the "faithful" to prayer (if they are that faithful, why ?) 365 days a year using high powered loudspeakers at all times of the day including early in the morning.

Complaint from ordinary residents about this were lablled racist.

 

[TrainBrain185]

If it wasn't a war zone (and before you say anything, it's nothing to do with the vast majority of Muslims).

Why then can people go to places like Dubai - part of a Muslim country?

Yes, I have no problem with Dubai. A nice place to visit that has had millions of £$Euros of investment and infrastructure and embraced western values. I have no problems it being a Muslim orientated country! A perfect example how things should actually be.
Afghanistan sadly is a victim of Islamic extremism that is against western values and a haven for Islamic Cell's hell bent on terrorism.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Ralph I really dont want to become embroiled into what will ultimately become a slanging match once the racism jibes start being thrown about.

Neither do I, as you cannot have a reasoned debate throwing about things like that. In debates like these, I was always taught that there is no "right" point of view.

My point is quite simple.

I realised your point, I was just playing the devils advocate.

There are freedoms within the UK that are not available in Muslim Countries

That is true, and I wouldn't dispute that.

and human rights denied to other faiths in those Countries.

It depends on what you class as a human right. Is it something that the western world have had for thousands of years and we consider right - or is it what they have had for thousands of years and consider right?

If you go to those Countries you are expected to conform and under no circumstances will they tolerate any challenge to Islam.

I can't comment on that, I haven't been to any predominately islamic countries.

People coming to the UK should therefore be mindful that this is predominantly a Christian Country

Well, that is what the 2001 census said, so I cannot dispute that.

and not seek to demand rights that they deny others, nor should they demand special treatment.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by demanding rights that they deny others - I'm not being facetious - I genuinely don't know what you mean.

It is the putting of Muslims and Islam on a protected pedestal,

Are we, or are we trying to get an equal footing with Christianity - that is what I would want.

where no-one is allowed to raise any concern whatsoever at risk of being labelled racist is what fans the flames of discontent amongst those who feel they have no voice or say over things.

Freedom of speech is a very important right, which I support. It's why I support the BNP being a party even if I condemn what they stand for.

For example many many years ago when Birmingham held a Grand Prix, all was OK until the Central Mosque was built, at which point the Mullahs complained bitterly about the noise over ONE weekend a year. They were rather silent over the fact that it was their practice to call the "faithful" to prayer (if they are that faithful, why ?) 365 days a year using high powered loudspeakers at all times of the day including early in the morning.

Complaint from ordinary residents about this were lablled racist.

I can't comment on that - I don't know the situation entirely. However, it sounds like they (the Mullah's) were being pedantic and hypocritical. It works both ways.

 

[yorkie]

There are freedoms within the UK that are not available in Muslim Countries and human rights denied to other faiths in those Countries. If you go to those Countries you are expected to conform and under no circumstances will they tolerate any challenge to Islam.

All sorts of nasty things happened when we were a Christian country.

The native Pagans were treated rather badly by the Christian invaders. Perhaps they should have all been sent home at the time. This country would be a nicer place today eh?

People coming to the UK should therefore be mindful that this is predominantly a Christian Country and not seek to demand rights that they deny others, nor should they demand special treatment.

The Christians who invaded us should have been mindful that we were a predominantly Pagan country!

They re-branded the celebration of Yule and called it Christmas. People were forced to comply.

We should be glad that we are not a religious country at all, not glad that we are predominately Christian or any other religion IMO!

It is the putting of Muslims and Islam on a protected pedestal, where no-one is allowed to raise any concern whatsoever at risk of being labelled racist is what fans the flames of discontent amongst those who feel they have no voice or say over things.

If anyone dared stand up to the Christians they would have been killed...

Christians are not squeaky clean at all and have been responsible for many millions of deaths.

 

[Metroland]

You always get problems when humans gets very ideological or tribal, that's: any extreme religious zealots, left or right wing and so on.

What usually follows is war, death and destruction.

Balance, tolerance and moderation is key to a happy life.