Given the fewer stops than the Chester branch, and the therefore higher speed attainable between stops, surely there ought to be an aspiration to get this journey down to under 60 minutes? Regardless of who it sits with/stock used to operate it.
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Suggestions for improving the service on the Wrexham-Bidston line
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VT 390
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Will there be many passengers wanting to make connections to the Northern Line or main line services at Lime Street?
If a path can be found to extend the service to St James why not extend it round the full Loop.
Possibly if you dropped some stops but don't think that would be popular!
Possibly, although of course the spare platform does currently provide flexibility if things are going wrong.
headshot119
Established Member
The Wrexham - Bidston services don't interact with anything at Wrexham General other than the odd freight. It's relatively self contained apart from the units coming from further afield in the morning.
krus_aragon
Established Member
The current layout of Wrexham North means that Bidston services can only access platform 3 or 4, whereas services to/from Chester must use platforms 2 and 1. The only possible platform conflicts are with freight to/from the south, which operate through platform 3 to gain access to the Borderlands line.
Statto
Established Member
What is needed is the track upgraded, the service itself feels painfully slow especially north of Shotton, new track with higher speeds, journey time reduced, maybe then be able to serve Birkenhead North
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
None, as that posting was just a requested clarification.
Statto
Established Member
I have a few timetables books from the 70s which include Wrexham-Birkenhead North line, the service was better then than now, first northbound service was 05,15 from Wrexham, with 2 trains an hour in the peaks, with additional services from Neston/Heswall to Birkenhead North, journey time took 70 minutes, but once the service went to hourly there was plenty of layover time at both ends, around 45-50 minutes.
This is a very interesting line but I'm not sure how much real growth can result without addressing significant infrastructural challenges.
To my mind there are a number of different traffic flows:
a-Wirral stations to Liverpool There are issues with all of the existing stations. Upton and Heswall could have potentially been park and ride, except that the relevant land was flogged off years ago (in the case of Heswall for the naffly named Pullman Close). Neston's parking would conflict with that required for shoppers. There has been talk over the years about other stations-possibly in the satellite housing estates-but locations don't really jump out to me.
b-Wirral/Wales stations to Deeside Industrial Estate Nearby and still very inaccessible. I have seen some hardy souls with bikes on the train. Deeside Industrial Estate is seriously challenged from a sustainable transport point of view.
c-Wirral/Wales stations to Shotton for North Wales Coast Even with a better service from Shotton Low Level there is a lot of walking/steps involved. Doesn't feel particularly credible at the moment
d-Wales stations to Liverpool Relatively modest but Liverpool is increasing its pull these days. Nights on the Raz etc via Chester is maybe a better option from Wrexham.
e-all the little Welsh stations to Wrexham-Quite a few shoppers but we are talking barely more than large villages in the main. Passenger numbers are modest
So I am not sure that increasing the frequency to 30 mins and even going direct to Liverpool will really set the line alight with usage?
To my mind there are a number of different traffic flows:
a-Wirral stations to Liverpool There are issues with all of the existing stations. Upton and Heswall could have potentially been park and ride, except that the relevant land was flogged off years ago (in the case of Heswall for the naffly named Pullman Close). Neston's parking would conflict with that required for shoppers. There has been talk over the years about other stations-possibly in the satellite housing estates-but locations don't really jump out to me.
b-Wirral/Wales stations to Deeside Industrial Estate Nearby and still very inaccessible. I have seen some hardy souls with bikes on the train. Deeside Industrial Estate is seriously challenged from a sustainable transport point of view.
c-Wirral/Wales stations to Shotton for North Wales Coast Even with a better service from Shotton Low Level there is a lot of walking/steps involved. Doesn't feel particularly credible at the moment
d-Wales stations to Liverpool Relatively modest but Liverpool is increasing its pull these days. Nights on the Raz etc via Chester is maybe a better option from Wrexham.
e-all the little Welsh stations to Wrexham-Quite a few shoppers but we are talking barely more than large villages in the main. Passenger numbers are modest
So I am not sure that increasing the frequency to 30 mins and even going direct to Liverpool will really set the line alight with usage?
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For me, the main problem with the line is it’s terrible connections that could very easily be fixed. I don’t get why it’s timed the way it is. My MP wrote to TfW last year asking why the Bidston train leaves Wrexham general as the Cardiff train is pulling in? Why is there a 2 minute change over at shotton for the coast when the service always runs about 2 minutes late, leaving you to run like a possessed mongoose to try and catch it? Why does it take passengers from hawarden 54 minutes to get to Chester. It’s a 16 minute trip! Chester to Gwersllt is about 22 minutes but takes nearly 90! (I’m just going off memory here now, times are an educated guess but might not be exact).
I think these are the reasons there isn’t much patronage on the line. I think making sure the connections are good and a more frequent service, along with some good advertising with transform the line.
I think these are the reasons there isn’t much patronage on the line. I think making sure the connections are good and a more frequent service, along with some good advertising with transform the line.
Statto
Established Member
Good point, if you're connecting to the North Wales Coast line if you can, you're better going through Chester, rather than use Borderlines line through Shotton, choice of more trains too, Shotton & even Wrexham General aren't the pleasantest of stations to wait for trains at either, although Shotton does have a Wetherspoons near the station, the evening Wrexham-Bidston service is poor too.
Familiar with the Wetherspoons. Shotton's waiting room!
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Historically the passenger service was heavily influenced by the need to get shift workers to and from Shotton steel works. That is no longer a major driver.
However the current diagrams are so tight that things are locked into one pattern all day. This has to fit into a ‘gap’ at Bidston. Other than with something like a 15-minute frequency you are never going to cover all options of connecting ‘in and out’ in both directions at Shotton and at Wrexham.
It would be very easy to triple movement costs with (say) a half- hourly service with more resilience and perhaps extension to Birkenhead North or an extra station or two and better evening coverage.
It would require quite a leap of faith by both Welsh and Merseyside funders to try this, let alone investment in completely rebuilding Shotton, electrification, line speed increases, extending services to the Liverpool Loop, etc.
However the current diagrams are so tight that things are locked into one pattern all day. This has to fit into a ‘gap’ at Bidston. Other than with something like a 15-minute frequency you are never going to cover all options of connecting ‘in and out’ in both directions at Shotton and at Wrexham.
It would be very easy to triple movement costs with (say) a half- hourly service with more resilience and perhaps extension to Birkenhead North or an extra station or two and better evening coverage.
It would require quite a leap of faith by both Welsh and Merseyside funders to try this, let alone investment in completely rebuilding Shotton, electrification, line speed increases, extending services to the Liverpool Loop, etc.
Statto
Established Member
Thinking, the junction at the west side of Birkenhead North station would have to be remodeled, you can't access the down line going west from platform 1[P1 would be were Wrexham trains would start/terminate] otherwise they'd have to do a shunt move P2 to P3, thus interfering with other pathing.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Would it be possible to re-model so P2 was a centre turnback instead? This would reduce conflicts.
tbtc
Veteran Member
(getting away from some of the "fantasy" stuff and the Union stuff...) there's obviously been a lot of chat about a second train per hour being a semi-fast but which stations would it serve?
To save sufficient journey time to permit an extension to Birkenhead (or even under the Mersey) it would presumably need to skip a few stations, so what would you miss?
Stations shown with most recent annual passenger numbers from Wiki:
Wrexham Central - 88,568
Wrexham General - 492,000
Gwersyllt - 26,802
Cefn-y-Bedd - 7,620
Caergwrle - 17,800
Hope - 24,630
Penyffordd - 20,686
Buckley 41,008
Hawarden - 32,642
Shotton - 215,066
Hawarden Bridge - 3,296
Neston - 42,924
Helswall - 58,452
Upton - 33,634
Bidston - 288,000 (plus 71,114 interchanges)
So (assuming that it'll start/finish at Wrexham Central) the big hitters are obviously Wrexham General and Shotton. But where else? Would the Merseyside stations all warrant the semi-fast stopping there, given the potential for more Liverpool commuters?
Where would you draw the line though? Only serving stations with 20,000 passengers pa would mean skipping three stations - is that enough to get all the way to Birkenhead in an hour? Or would you skip all of the ones under 30,000 passengers pa? Will the WAG b happy if the new service skips lots of Welsh stations but serves all of the English ones?
(apologies if this has been already decided)
To save sufficient journey time to permit an extension to Birkenhead (or even under the Mersey) it would presumably need to skip a few stations, so what would you miss?
Stations shown with most recent annual passenger numbers from Wiki:
Wrexham Central - 88,568
Wrexham General - 492,000
Gwersyllt - 26,802
Cefn-y-Bedd - 7,620
Caergwrle - 17,800
Hope - 24,630
Penyffordd - 20,686
Buckley 41,008
Hawarden - 32,642
Shotton - 215,066
Hawarden Bridge - 3,296
Neston - 42,924
Helswall - 58,452
Upton - 33,634
Bidston - 288,000 (plus 71,114 interchanges)
So (assuming that it'll start/finish at Wrexham Central) the big hitters are obviously Wrexham General and Shotton. But where else? Would the Merseyside stations all warrant the semi-fast stopping there, given the potential for more Liverpool commuters?
Where would you draw the line though? Only serving stations with 20,000 passengers pa would mean skipping three stations - is that enough to get all the way to Birkenhead in an hour? Or would you skip all of the ones under 30,000 passengers pa? Will the WAG b happy if the new service skips lots of Welsh stations but serves all of the English ones?
(apologies if this has been already decided)
Statto
Established Member
No, they would still need to install a new crossover from the up to the down to the west of Birkenhead North first, so trains can reverse without doing a shunt move, which they have to do now. When engineering works mean trains cant use Hamilton Square & the Loop, trains terminate at P2, then do a shunt to P3 going east first, if they could install a crossover west of BKN, it could mean trains could then use P1 or & P2 without having to do the shunt manoeuvre
Indeed. And the politics is even more complicated. Up to Heswall is in Liverpool City Region (although they would scratch your eyes out if you call it Merseyside). Neston is not. It is in Cheshire West, a county not necessarily rail interested.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Realistically, what could you do at Shotton? It seems to me the fundamental problem is that the North Wales coast line doesn't actually go near the main road, where you ideally want the station to be. So, even if money was available to rebuild the station, you have a choice between having the Wrexham-Bidston line platforms where they are now (useless for interchange but great for journeys starting at Shotton), or putting them where the lines cross over (great for interchange, but rubbish for people starting/ending their journey there). There doesn't seem to be a way to make the station convenient for both groups of people.
why either/or? I reckon extending the platforms to the North Wales line would only make them 200m long, which is far from unusual and possibly long enough to have terminating trains from both Liverpool and Wrexham.
ElectroSoldier
Member
Shotton high level poorly serves the low level station any way, The way the services run you always miss the boat train. Or come to that coming from Wrexham to the airport.
If you want to serve that station then they need to be togetehr but them its at the wrong end of the town if you do to serve Wrexham - Bidston...
Have two?
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Actually I think the answer will be to some extent imposed by the infrastructure. The fast trains should definitely stop at Upton, Heswall, and Neston, and Shotton, and then skip some or all stations at the southern end of the line.
My reasoning... Think about Bidston. The trains there have to fit in the gaps between the every-15-minutes West Kirby trains. That means they HAVE to arrive at Bidston at 30-minute intervals (Unless you are going to the extreme of 15+45 minute intervals). So the Wrexham end is going to see something like 20 + 40 minute intervals, with a regular 30 minute frequency at Bidston. Clearly, having the fast train stop at places that give a 30 minute frequency is much more useful than having it stop at places where it can only give a 20/40 frequency. Luckily, that coincides with having it stop at the stations that are most heavily used. I'd also hazard a guess that commuting into Liverpool is where you'd see the greatest potential for further growth anyway.
ElectroSoldier
Member
Gwersyllt I can understand as its patronage is dropping steadily given the bus service into the town.
Cefn-y-Bedd doesnt have a good bus service same as Caergwrle, Hope and Penyfford.
They may not provide many passengers but the service that they are given is in some ways enough. the 27 is every hour. Maybe if they can fit the train service in with the bus service they could give a 30 minute service between them.
Cefn-y-Bedd doesnt have a good bus service same as Caergwrle, Hope and Penyfford.
They may not provide many passengers but the service that they are given is in some ways enough. the 27 is every hour. Maybe if they can fit the train service in with the bus service they could give a 30 minute service between them.
krus_aragon
Established Member
Three of the four current platforms are reasonably well-connected: the coast platforms (1 and 2) are connected by a bridge/footpath to platform 3 (trains toward Bidston), but to get between platform 4 and the rest of the station you have to walk south to the main road then north again along platform 3.
Extending the coast platforms under the railway bridge (and extending the borderlands platforms north) might sound like a nice idea to get all platforms meeting each other, but it wouldn't work in practice. Even though the railway bridge is a broad one, dating from when the coast line was four tracks wide, a cycle path now goes under the railway bridge next to the Chester-bound platform (1).
My suggestion would be to extend a footpath northwards from the end of platform 4, dropping down to ground level, and then using the space available under the railway bridge to connect end-on with the Holyhead-bound platform 2. Couple this with the installation of passenger lifts at the passenger footbridge (and perhaps some adaptation to the footpath/ramp between platforms 2 and 3) and you'll have a station with wheelchair access to all platforms, and a reasonable walking route between each of them.
Then the next step is to co-ordinate the train times with each other...
If I was doing a full fat job on the line I would be tempted to close Bidston and open a replacement a bit along the Wrexham line, at the old road bridge. Takes a stop and slow conflict out of the West Kirby line and puts the station nearer the housing.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If frequency was increased and direct trains to Liverpool put on, I'd be inclined to agree. It's a bit middle of nowhere.
The line sort of suffers from the northern bit basically being similar to most of Merseyrail, but the southern bit being a rural branch line. In some ways I'm a bit surprised it didn't get an Ormskirk style treatment, with Merseyrail to Neston and an end-on junction there to a rural DMU once an hour.
It's also an odd survivor in a way - the line round the coast from West Kirby would far better serve Heswall and Neston than the line from Bidston.
presumably related to getting freight to the docks more directly?
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