Suggestions for improving the service on the Wrexham-Bidston line

[frodshamfella]

Until very recent times, had this line been placed in the Merseyrail franchise, it would have seen all its stations placed under the RMT strike threat that affected that particular franchise.

That's an industrial issue that will need to be resolved. Nothing to do with what might be better for the long term operation of this line. To my mind it should be part of the Merseyrail network, and give this line a decent service.

 

[Djgr]

Until very recent times, had this line been placed in the Merseyrail franchise, it would have seen all its stations placed under the RMT strike threat that affected that particular franchise.

So you are seriously suggesting that Arriva Trains Wales was a better TOC than Merseyrail Electrics?

 

[8H]

Given that TfW have effectively doubled the service frequency in future, and are liaising with Merseytravel so that everybody benefits I can’t see why people are getting exercised about the franchise geography. The complication, if there is one historically has been that the Mersey PTA boundary ended at Heswall. However Cheshire West (Neston) are now more enlightened and participatory than previously and Flintshire (Shotton) and TfW towards Wrexham have always been so. An outstanding problem however is the lack of multi modal multi operator and in this case multi national ticketing which needs to include Borderlands stations and adjacent bus routes along the whole route.

Just quoting myself from June, one substantive issue is route frequency, another is joined up ticketing, and the third is better connectivity, Birkenhead North would be a very good beginning for this. Franchise change is however a sideshow, even potentially a negative as the route would get stuck in permanent all stations trundle to Liverpool and don’t worry about the rest of it mode.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So you are seriously suggesting that Arriva Trains Wales was a better TOC than Merseyrail Electrics?

No, just stating a hard, cold, industrial relations truth.

 

[Djgr]

Just quoting myself from June, one substantive issue is route frequency, another is joined up ticketing, and the third is better connectivity, Birkenhead North would be a very good beginning for this. Franchise change is however a sideshow, even potentially a negative as the route would get stuck in permanent all stations trundle to Liverpool and don’t worry about the rest of it mode.

Has anyone suggested that the Borderlands line would ever be anything other than an all stations trundle?

 

[Djgr]

No, just stating a hard, cold, industrial relations truth.

For what purpose?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Merseyrail took over this route could these extra services say twice an hour fit in the loop under Liverpool ? If not maybe it could begin in Birkenhead North. Of course it would ideally want electric installation, and there is never money for things like that.

It could be run into the spare platform at James St. With the way Liverpool city centre has shifted, this probably isn't all that inconvenient.

 

[sw1ller]

I believe, when the plan was for 2-3 units on the borderlands line, a semi fast would be needed to keep the service every half hour. But now all 5 230’s are expected on the line, I can’t see a semi fast happening at all.
Saying that, I hear something new about the plans on a weekly basis now and I’ve stopped listening to the rumour mill.

 

[8H]

Has anyone suggested that the Borderlands line would ever be anything other than an all stations trundle?

My point, sorry if it wasn’t clear, is that in respect of concentrating almost exclusively on serving Liverpool city centre the other useful purposes for routes wither. For example Birkenhead to Chester via Hooton fast trains took just 33 minutes with a Fairburn tank up front! but of course trundling to Liverpool without addressing the screaming need for modal shift between Wales and Merseyside by continuing to provide trundles is allegedly all we need to do. Wrexham Bidston needs Shotton connectivity focus and Wrexham connectivity focus too to develop its widest role. A North bank of the Mersey dominated focus will detract from that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is not the TfW service via the Halton Curve designed precisely to aid modal shift between North Wales and Merseyside, though?

 

[8H]

Well you could say that, and it is a really welcome plus, but it is still “slow” end to end by 1966 standards I instanced and certainly is slow set against motor cars taking the M53 and or the A55 to Chester and North Wales. Four tracking Rock Ferry Hooton again and developing connections on Wrexham Bidston route at Shotton and Wrexham are really important too.

 

[Djgr]

My point, sorry if it wasn’t clear, is that in respect of concentrating almost exclusively on serving Liverpool city centre the other useful purposes for routes wither. For example Birkenhead to Chester via Hooton fast trains took just 33 minutes with a Fairburn tank up front! but of course trundling to Liverpool without addressing the screaming need for modal shift between Wales and Merseyside by continuing to provide trundles is allegedly all we need to do. Wrexham Bidston needs Shotton connectivity focus and Wrexham connectivity focus too to develop its widest role. A North bank of the Mersey dominated focus will detract from that.

I certainly see Shotton as an issue given that it is a key station on the Borderlands line but treated as a minor station on the North Wales Coast line (with trains skipping it).

That said it is difficult to envisage a mixture of fast and slow traffic on the Borderlands line happening any time soon. It's not so much of a trundle to the Welsh border as the English stations are quite spaced out.

 

[PR1Berske]

For what purpose?

My guess is that it's just stating a fact for the purposes of discussion.

 

[Djgr]

My guess is that it's just stating a fact for the purposes of discussion.

Well okay. Taking all things in the round I would consider Merseyrail Electrics to be one of the better TOCs, better than Arriva Trains Wales was and much better than Northern, who are a complete joke.

If I were a regular Borderlands line user I would have no qualms with a franchise transfer to Merseyrail and would probably prefer management out of Liverpool to management out of Cardiff.

 

[krus_aragon]

But now all 5 230’s are expected on the line

Are all five going to be in daily service now? My understanding from the franchise launch that the end-plan was to have four diagrams, with one unit on maintenance or spare.

There was separate talk of the 230s going directly to the Borderlands, and not being used on the Conwy Valley (etc.) until the doubling of the frequency to Bidston. Is this perhaps what you had in mind?

I certainly see Shotton as an issue given that it is a key station on the Borderlands line but treated as a minor station on the North Wales Coast line (with trains skipping it).

I would hope that when the North Wales Coast goes to 3tph in 2022, that 2tph will call at Shotton. Having 2tph in all directions should make connections there more practical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well okay. Taking all things in the round I would consider Merseyrail Electrics to be one of the better TOCs, better than Arriva Trains Wales was and much better than Northern, who are a complete joke.

If I were a regular Borderlands line user I would have no qualms with a franchise transfer to Merseyrail and would probably prefer management out of Liverpool to management out of Cardiff.

The trouble is that one reason Merseyrail is a reasonable TOC (I'm not going beyond that, as I certainly do believe they have more issues than their fans would like to suggest) is that it's dead simple. Everything all stations[1], very near to being fully clockface, one class of EMU (OK, technically two, but they are basically identical), only a small number of depots, everything third rail electrified, simple ticketing (just Anytime Day Single/Return and the day tickets plus PTE stuff), all suburban demand profiles etc.

If you start running them all the way out to Wrexham, that really complicates things. It's one reason I think they should only go as far as Burscough Bridge, not Preston. Indeed, the case is quite similar between the two - but then add to that operating into Wales which has some different legislative matters etc.

I'd leave it with the Welsh operator but run it into James St spare platform.

[1] Yes, Capenhurst - but I think we will see those stops back in with the 777s.

 

[VT 390]

I'd leave it with the Welsh operator but run it into James St spare platform.

Are Diesel trains allowed to operate in the tunnel sections?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are Diesel trains allowed to operate in the tunnel sections?

The Network Rail MPVs do, but the obvious answer to this is to fit the 230s with shoegear and end doors.

 

[Djgr]

The trouble is that one reason Merseyrail is a reasonable TOC (I'm not going beyond that, as I certainly do believe they have more issues than their fans would like to suggest) is that it's dead simple. Everything all stations[1], very near to being fully clockface, one class of EMU (OK, technically two, but they are basically identical), only a small number of depots, everything third rail electrified, simple ticketing (just Anytime Day Single/Return and the day tickets plus PTE stuff), all suburban demand profiles etc.

If you start running them all the way out to Wrexham, that really complicates things. It's one reason I think they should only go as far as Burscough Bridge, not Preston. Indeed, the case is quite similar between the two - but then add to that operating into Wales which has some different legislative matters etc.

I'd leave it with the Welsh operator but run it into James St spare platform.

[1] Yes, Capenhurst - but I think we will see those stops back in with the 777s.

But running out to Wrexham would still be self-contained if it didn't use the main platforms at Wrexham General wouldn't it? Or is there some freight lurking around to run late and screw things up? (as per Piccadilly/Oxford Road)

 

[Bletchleyite]

But running out to Wrexham would still be self-contained if it didn't use the main platforms at Wrexham General wouldn't it? Or is there some freight lurking around to run late and screw things up? (as per Piccadilly/Oxford Road)

I think there's freight, and it would at least mix with other stuff at Wrexham General briefly (though it also does at Hunts Cross, to be fair).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If Merseyrail took over this route could these extra services say twice an hour fit in the loop under Liverpool ?

Well, the loop sees 14tph, comprised of a regular 5 minute frequency, and then the 2tph to Ellesmere Port slot in between the 'regular' trains. So I'm guessing if there's capacity to have the Ellesmere Port trains as extras to the 'every 5 minutes' thing, then there's probably capacity for 2tph from Wrexham to do the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, the loop sees 14tph, comprised of a regular 5 minute frequency, and then the 2tph to Ellesmere Port slot in between the 'regular' trains. So I'm guessing if there's capacity to have the Ellesmere Port trains as extras to the 'every 5 minutes' thing, then there's probably capacity for 2tph from Wrexham to do the same.

At one stage it was signalled for 30tph, but I think the resignalling in the 1990s reduced that a bit. I suspect there are still plenty of spare paths though.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Well okay. Taking all things in the round I would consider Merseyrail Electrics to be one of the better TOCs, better than Arriva Trains Wales was and much better than Northern, who are a complete joke.

If I were a regular Borderlands line user I would have no qualms with a franchise transfer to Merseyrail and would probably prefer management out of Liverpool to management out of Cardiff.

If Merseyrail took over the entire journey from Wrexham to Liverpool passengers would lose , tables , decent seats , toilets. Hardly a long journey but still comfort is an issue to many and toilets on 80/90 minutes journey could be a real issue. People complain on the Wirral line between Chester and Liverpool and that is only 50 mins.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People complain on the Wirral line between Chester and Liverpool and that is only 50 mins.

Who complains about Merseyrail to Chester? I've used it extensively and I don't think I ever heard anyone complain about it in any aspect whatsoever.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Who complains about Merseyrail to Chester? I've used it extensively and I don't think I ever heard anyone complain about it in any aspect whatsoever.

I didn't ask there names ....sorry. but as a regular user I have heard many complaints about toilets, (lack of) the amount of stops and the general time taken for a short journey.

 

[Djgr]

If Merseyrail took over the entire journey from Wrexham to Liverpool passengers would lose , tables , decent seats , toilets. Hardly a long journey but still comfort is an issue to many and toilets on 80/90 minutes journey could be a real issue. People complain on the Wirral line between Chester and Liverpool and that is only 50 mins.

Whilst toilets is indeed a valid issue I'm not sure about the other points. Remember that new trains are heading towards Merseyrail Electrics.

The Welsh part of the line does have a lot of stops but I don't think that that is related to the franchise holder. To be honest the future for the Wrexham to Liverpool (rather than intermediate) traveller probably lies in the service via Chester.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Whilst toilets is indeed a valid issue I'm not sure about the other points. Remember that new trains are heading towards Merseyrail Electrics.

The Welsh part of the line does have a lot of stops but I don't think that that is related to the franchise holder. To be honest the future for the Wrexham to Liverpool (rather than intermediate) traveller probably lies in the service via Chester.

Agreed!

 

[urbophile]

I didn't ask there names ....sorry. but as a regular user I have heard many complaints about toilets, (lack of) the amount of stops and the general time taken for a short journey.

It's at least 50 minutes on the Metropolitan line from Baker Street to Amersham/Chesham without toilets. At least Merseyrail have toilets on most stations these days unlike LU.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

It's at least 50 minutes on the Metropolitan line from Baker Street to Amersham/Chesham without toilets. At least Merseyrail have toilets on most stations these days unlike LU.

But my initial point was that from Wrexham to Liverpool if Merseyrail took over the franchise would be over 80 minutes without toilets amongst other things.

I was using the 50 minute Wirral line service as an example of where people do ask about toilets, so 80 minutes could be a step to far? Just a thought on my part, I'm not saying it is or isn't but certainly would need to be a consideration.

 

[frodshamfella]

It could be run into the spare platform at James St. With the way Liverpool city centre has shifted, this probably isn't all that inconvenient.

Thats true not.too far from Liverpool1. Must be the best thing to do if it can as im sure the city is where most passengers are essentially heading for.