When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[323235]

I think the main issue with the current timetable on the Whitby branch is that is makes it impossible for many to even consider using it.

It's the only place in the North East that I cannot reach and return in a day with time to spare unless I get up stupidly early and even that relies on some really tight connections.

 

[yorksrob]

The two aren't really comparable. In that example the train is still faster than driving or the public bus, dismal as it is.


The alignment isn't that bad. There are a few little used stations that need closing for the greater good. Battersby needs bypassing completely. Then it is the dilapidated track a antiquated methods of working. It isn't such a monumental undertaking to get a fair alignment up from 30mph to 60/75mph.



Unfortunately the Northern franchise has more corners than sides. Whitby is debated disproportionately because a well read columnist is based there, it is a tourist destination and there are steam trains. But the same debate could be had about many other places such as Barrow, Skegness or indeed the Middlesborough - Newcastle axis.

Opportunity cost is about priorities. Is it a coincidence all of these areas are incredibly deprived and left behind? Meanwhile fantastic sums are spent on providing the same timetable with fewer carbons emissions, improving already excellent links to London, or scrapping whole fleets of mid-life EMUs.

The debate isn't really about Whitby it is about what transport policy is meant to achieve.

Some very interesting points. I started the thread because the line is the most under-resourced route that I use, in comparison to the busyness of its trains, but I agree wholeheartedly your point about it being a microcosm of the (what seem to me to be) skewed priorities of railway investment, or even revenue expenditure.

In terms of profile, I'm surprised it doesn't have a much higher one, given the importance of Whitby historically and culturally. It's worth recalling that the town was the focus of opposition to the Beeching agenda in 1964. I can't help but wonder why there isn't more political pressure from the town today to improve the line.

 

[trainophile]

Especially as I should think parking is a bit of a nightmare too.

 

[bearhugger]

I think the main issue with the current timetable on the Whitby branch is that is makes it impossible for many to even consider using it.

As someone who lives close to the line at the Middlesbrough end, and a station adopter, the timetable to Nunthorpe is much improved over the last 5 years since James Cook (JCH) station was opened. But getting back on topic, the options of getting to Whitby or going to places like the Moors Centre at Danby, connecting to the North York Moors Railway at Grosmont or going for a meal at one of the village pubs means either a rushed visit or spending too long at a small place. So a better timetable would be beneficial to visitors from further afield and more locals. I'm sure the village pubs would welcome more trade to boost their coffers.

Especially as I should think parking is a bit of a nightmare too.

Even with the new(ish) park & ride scheme, parking can be a nightmare. I have heard stories from locals that visitors drop friends/family off in the town then drive back to the park & ride carpark causing more problems in town.

 

[darloscott]

As someone who lives close to the line at the Middlesbrough end, and a station adopter, the timetable to Nunthorpe is much improved over the last 5 years since James Cook (JCH) station was opened. But getting back on topic, the options of getting to Whitby or going to places like the Moors Centre at Danby, connecting to the North York Moors Railway at Grosmont or going for a meal at one of the village pubs means either a rushed visit or spending too long at a small place. So a better timetable would be beneficial to visitors from further afield and more locals. I'm sure the village pubs would welcome more trade to boost their coffers.


Even with the new(ish) park & ride scheme, parking can be a nightmare. I have heard stories from locals that visitors drop friends/family off in the town then drive back to the park & ride carpark causing more problems in town.

When I did my researching (for a new route for the bus company I worked for at the time!) a few months ago the traffic in Whitby was gridlock, Arriva were running an extra bus on the P&R and the place was almost full when I went past on (full & standing) X93 about 1015, with a queue of about 100 people long waiting for buses even though 2 of the 3 were there loading, they run double decks with extra buses as required.

 

[MML]

Of course, the real crime was the Beeching closure of the link to York via Pickering and Malton. It would have given far better connections than Middlesborough. However, without the closure the NYMR would not have brought additional tourism to the area so the decision wasn't all bad in the long run.

What would be required in terms of infrastructure and rolling stock to provide an hourly service in each direction between Whitby and Middlesborough ? Would existing passing loops and the dual tracks at Battersby allow a more frequent service at least in the Summer months. Could another operator provide a service where Northern are unable ? And could this be profitable with increased frequency stimulating greater usage by locals and tourists alike.

 

[Glenn1969]

Battersby also used to be a junction with a line going to Picton on the main Northallerton to Eaglescliffe line. That branch closed before Beeching. If it was open now a service could run via Eaglescliffe and would provide Stokesley with a train service. Was that line closing a mistake in hindsight?

 

[bramling]

Battersby also used to be a junction with a line going to Picton on the main Northallerton to Eaglescliffe line. That branch closed before Beeching. If it was open now a service could run via Eaglescliffe and would provide Stokesley with a train service. Was that line closing a mistake in hindsight?

Depends how significant Middlesbrough (and possibly the Stockton area) ranks in terms of journeys to/from Whitby. If these journeys are important then the Sexhow route would have proved less valuable. The Nunthorpe route also makes some attempt at serving Guisborough, albeit poorly.

One wonders if the route from Scarborough might have survived were it not for the awkward track layout arrangements at each end. Likewise the route to Saltburn were it not for the torturous alignment - survival of that route might have done a bit of good for some of the communities along the way, some of which today are quite significant in terms of deprivation.

 

[bramling]

Yes, well it's the whole electricity versus diesel issue again. It seems that we can buy electric trains like sweets in a candy shop, yet diesel units are a little harder to come by.

But then again, perhaps not, given that we have a load of 153's that are supposedly going to be given up during this franchise. If we really haven't got enough DMU's to have two on the Whitby line at the same time, then we really ought to be thinking about permanently reforming them into longer units.

Agreed. IMO no diesel unit should be going off-lease and to storage or scrap if there’s a viable use for it where there are routes with overcrowding, and this includes pacers. Whilst I think it might be hard to justify major investment in routes like Whitby, even with variable demand it shouldn’t be a major problem to run decent length trains on this route, as like you say really it only requires one extra unit.

Unfortunately no doubt the issue is that pound sign again, and rightly or wrongly a (comparatively) small number of day trippers to Whitby and an even less significant seasonal flow of holidaymakers and a small flow of other users (which in the grand scheme of things also includes the school kids) isn’t going to be high on either the TOC or DFT’s list of priorities. Would there be a service at all on this line if it wasn’t for the school kids and the difficulties with providing road transport in winter?

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed. IMO no diesel unit should be going off-lease and to storage or scrap if there’s a viable use for it where there are routes with overcrowding, and this includes pacers. Whilst I think it might be hard to justify major investment in routes like Whitby, even with variable demand it shouldn’t be a major problem to run decent length trains on this route, as like you say really it only requires one extra unit.

Unfortunately no doubt the issue is that pound sign again, and rightly or wrongly a (comparatively) small number of day trippers to Whitby and an even less significant seasonal flow of holidaymakers and a small flow of other users (which in the grand scheme of things also includes the school kids) isn’t going to be high on either the TOC or DFT’s list of priorities. Would there be a service at all on this line if it wasn’t for the school kids and the difficulties with providing road transport in winter?

Indeed. It does seem sometimes that there's not enough incentive to provide a quality transport experience. I suspect that you are correct, in that it probably is more cost effective to have passengers standing on the train for one and a half hours, and for some to be left behind at intermediate stations to await the next train in three hours time, even where a unit is sat in the sidings at Middlesborough all day.

It's the same thing about chucking out a two carriage 150 on the Manchester Vic to Leeds via Hebden at 20:30 on a Saturday night. It's been going on for decades.

The DfT is micro-managing the bottom line, but who is looking at the day to day passenger experience !

 

[Bletchleyite]

The DfT is micro-managing the bottom line, but who is looking at the day to day passenger experience !

Quite.

I would say the Marston Vale 230s are the first serious attempt at looking at the branch line passenger experience in the UK since...ever, really. It will be interesting to watch the effect it has once they have fully settled down (initial unreliability will no doubt have a negative effect).

 

[yorksrob]

Quite.

I would say the Marston Vale 230s are the first serious attempt at looking at the branch line passenger experience in the UK since...ever, really. It will be interesting to watch the effect it has once they have fully settled down (initial unreliability will no doubt have a negative effect).

I'm interested to see how they do. Closer to home, they would be fine for a local service from Huddersfield to York via Castleford for example.

For somewhere like the Whitby branch though, they'd need to at least match the capacity of a super-sprinter. I suspect that even if you used them to double frequency, the line would soon suffer from the problems of 'Operation Princess' in that the extra passengers generated would overwhelm the provided capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For somewhere like the Whitby branch though, they'd need to at least match the capacity of a super-sprinter. I suspect that even if you used them to double frequency, the line would soon suffer from the problems of 'Operation Princess' in that the extra passengers generated would overwhelm the provided capacity.

True, though you could go for longer sets. If it's really busy at times, perhaps something like a 3 or 4-car set with the 8 sets of doors and lots of standing space on the end vehicles and a more Marston Vale-like 4 door low density layout in the middle two (or vice versa). Sometimes standing is inevitable, so it can be better to design for it.

Sort of taking the example from the Sheffield trams (which you also see on Swiss narrow gauge lines which are similar to our branches a lot of the time) which I believe to have an excellent layout for a line where you have a mixture of very short and very long journeys and where it's occasionally really busy or really empty.

You could, like the Conwy Valley 101s, take one or both middle coaches out in the dead of winter if it made much difference to fuel usage.

 

[Killingworth]

Short term capacity is easy if the redundant 153s aren't scrapped on 31st December. Seems a no brainer, but apparently that's unlikely.

Ridership hasn't changed much in recent years, Whitby fairly flat around 130-138k. Two markets, local users and tourists.

I confess I've only ever driven to Whitby, or by NYMR from Pickering. It's in the same county but if I start now it would take over 4 hours by train. By car I'd be there in 2. When I lived in Hull I needed to get to Middlesbrough and had to take 3 trains, but Whitby would be 4. It's the same from Sheffield.

It takes a lot of rail fanatics and other tourists to justify more services if local users don't patronise them on a regular basis. Under 15,000 people live in Whitby. The Esk Valley is lightly populated. Where else is there significant regular extra traffic to be obtained to justify more investment?

It's a competitive world for line investment funds and many other areas are in the queue with business cases that stack up better for all but the most basic work - just keeping things running.

More carriages must be a more likely bet. Limited tweaking of services should be possible once rolling stock availability stabilises in a couple of years time. That's wishful thinking!

 

[yorksrob]

True, though you could go for longer sets. If it's really busy at times, perhaps something like a 3 or 4-car set with the 8 sets of doors and lots of standing space on the end vehicles and a more Marston Vale-like 4 door low density layout in the middle two (or vice versa). Sometimes standing is inevitable, so it can be better to design for it.

Sort of taking the example from the Sheffield trams (which you also see on Swiss narrow gauge lines which are similar to our branches a lot of the time) which I believe to have an excellent layout for a line where you have a mixture of very short and very long journeys and where it's occasionally really busy or really empty.

You could, like the Conwy Valley 101s, take one or both middle coaches out in the dead of winter if it made much difference to fuel usage.

Yes, I think that whatever you use, the option to store a carriage over winter could be useful. The mixture of seating types on the 230's is one of the charming things about them.

 

[philthetube]

Was on the 10.20 from Middlesbrough to Whitby today. Was as per the last couple of times I have used it full and standing by a few stops down the line with a manic scrum to ensure a seat at the start.
This is even on a so-called Summer's day with distinctly patchy weather.
I was one of the brave/mad ones who came all the way from King's Cross.
Routed by LNER 7.00 to Darlington then to Middlesbrough then to Whitby all cross or same platform interchange.
Other times had been scheduled to change at York involving stairs/lifts then to Middlesbrough so this was a pleasant change.
Have done KGX to YRK thence bus to Whitby but that led to a long delay when the train was cancelled and missed the bus and had to wait a long time for the next one.
Return journey booking this time was interesting...
LNER routing us to Middlesbrough then York with minimal time to change at York and stairs/lifts with luggage and someone struggling to walk at the moment and more expensive than the outward journey.
Tried other booking engines.
XC and IIRC others came up with a cheaper ticket but bizarrely required an extra change of trains at Nunthorpe(?) Just tried to check this and it doesn't any more?!
In the end got a cheaper ticket via Train Split with a longer wait at York of about 40 minutes but with no stairs or lifts so that suits us fine!
This journey is only for the dedicated Whitby fan!

I did this journey from Kings Cross last summer, missed the connection at York for Middlesboro, went to ticket office who arranged a taxi direct to Whitby, got me there nearly 2 hours early.

No Delay Repay,

 

[yorksrob]

Short term capacity is easy if the redundant 153s aren't scrapped on 31st December Seems a no brainer, but apparently that's unlikely.

Ridership hasn't changed much in recent years, Whitby fairly flat around 130-138k. Two markets, local users and tourists.

I confess I've only ever driven to Whitby, or by NYMR from Pickering. It's in the same county but if I start now it would take over 4 hours by train. By car I'd be there in 2. When I lived in Hull I needed to get to Middlesbrough and had to take 3 trains, but Whitby would be 4. It's the same from Sheffield.

It takes a lot of rail fanatics and other tourists to justify more services if local users don't patronise them on a regular basis. Under 15,000 people live in Whitby. The Esk Valley is lightly populated. Where else is there significant regular extra traffic to be obtained to justify more investment?

It's a competitive world for line investment funds and many other areas are in the queue with business cases that stack up better for all but the most basic work - just keeping things running.

More carriages must be a more likely bet. Limited tweaking of services should be possible once rolling stock availability stabilises in a couple of years time. That's wishful thinking!

There are cranks and tourists making the journey from further afield, but the line seems to be very popular with ordinary people and families from Middlesborough and the North East going for a day out. I would class these as local users.

In many ways, I think there is probably more potential from the local villages with a good timetable.

You are correct that there is a lot of competition for investment, although I do believe that there would be justification in providing enough investment to run a decent timetable (i.e. doubling frequency). This is what the line justified before the service was slashed as a pre-privatisation sweetener.

But even without those, strengthening the Saturday service could make things a lot better, without any capital investment.

 

[trainophile]

Pleasant as it is, the NYMR has become ridiculously expensive. Last year it was £29 return for an adult, last week £31. No railcard discounts. That’s £62 for a couple. We decided against it just on price. They should be wary of pricing themselves out of ordinary people’s reach.

 

[DarloRich]

I
Oh please, the route carries a decent year round patronage - it's not some holiday line that closes down in winter.

Really? I have used it in the winter ( when i had some business at various points along the line) and found the train dead. Whitby is a lovely place but in a storm in February it is quite bleak ( like everywhere else on the north east coast)

#DarloRich, you make use of a branchline with non-mainline passenger numbers (Bedford-Bletchley). Do you think that this line should suffice with five trains a day each way, or have you just 'gone native' down there ?

Is that an attempt at a serious point? Really? My branch line is quite different to the Esk Valley line. The obvious difference is the connection to the MML at one end and the WCML at the other.

Yes, alright, I had a 142 once,

don't know you are born. Solid pacer when i lived up that way!

I’d say there’s a case for longer trains for sure to cater for busy times, and perhaps a better token arrangement for the Glaisdale to Whitby section, but apart from that I’d think it hard to justify any further investment.

Agreed.

As far as I'm aware before the NYMR started taking up paths between Grosmont and Whitby there was sufficient capacity to run a roughly two hourly service between Middlesbrough and Whitby. So the infrastructure is already capable of running a more frequent service. If the NYMR weren't there....

I bet the NYMR bring more passengers to Whitby than Northern ever would!

I tried out the NYMR and then a taxi to Malton and then TPE to York.

Why? there is a perfectly good bus from Pickering to Malton. It is a bus service i will lower myself to use so it must be decent ( Coastliner?)

With the best will in the world it will never be a fast line, therefore not much advantage in skipping stations, the bus must win for Whitby - Middlesborough journeys but it provides useful links along the valley. That is why it has survived. It would have been ideal for 230's

Yes, the line would have been a perfect fit for a dedicated stand alone fleet of 3 x 230s, much like the Marston Vale. If only Northern hadn't ruled out their use as a knee-jerk reaction to negative publicity on the use of secondhand underground stock as a pacer replacement.
60mph max speed but improved acceleration would have helped journey times. 3-car would have provided capacity increase at relatively low capital cost.
156's could then be used elsewhere on the network.
Only alternative would be to attach 153 to the 156 at peak times.
Let's hope Vivarail approach Northern again to demonstrate that a small, locally supported dedicated fleet can work.

The 230's would be ideal for this line. A decent number of dedicated trains could be provided to allow for some flexibility on service provision. If only certain people here and in the wider world hadn't kicked up such a stink about cast offs and second hand trains.........

Then it ought to be possible to use it to strengthen the busy 10.20 Whitby on Saturdays and in the holidays, even if it means using single door working intermediately (they do it on the Mallaig Extension so...). (It would be even better to run it as an additional train, but you'd have to negotiate paths with the NYMR).
There also seems to be a path for the same unit to run a return trip from MBO at 1635 or 1700 which might be better than doubling-up in the evening.

Agreed! Sensible strengthening should be the order of the day

Unfortunately the Northern franchise has more corners than sides. Whitby is debated disproportionately because a well read columnist is based there, it is a tourist destination and there are steam trains. But the same debate could be had about many other places such as Barrow, Skegness or indeed the Middlesborough - Newcastle axis.

Whitby had more going for it than the other places you mention!

This is part of the trouble with any seaside branch line. If it's scorching hot it'll be rammed but if it's cool and wet it won't. What do you cater for? You don't get holidaymakers to British seaside resorts anymore, it's all day trips, and that traffic is so variable.

A good point

I wonder how much capacity a 3 carriage 230 would have, as opposed to a 2 carriage 156/158 ?

it depends on the layout chosen with your 230. Assuming a 3 car train I think you are looking at 163 seats. On the Vale we have a mixed selection of seating ( tables, bays, longitudinal) giving us a seating fugue of 114. For a long run like the Esk Valley you would surely want traditional seating and tables. The bumpff also indicates a trolley could be carried. The beauty of these trains is that they are essentially modular and can be designed to meet customer needs.

From Rail Technology Magazine: The Class 230 D-Train will be available in different layouts with various amenities to satisfy specific needs of passengers. The vehicles will be fitted with universal access toilets, refreshment trolleys, tables, smart storage solutions and iPad holders.

The City configuration will have two and three cars per unit. The two-car vehicle will house 86 seats per unit and will offer a total passenger carrying capacity of 188. The three-car vehicle with 140 longitudinal seats will have a total capacity of 294, including standing passengers.

The Commuter variant will feature two and three cars per unit. The two-car vehicle will have 114 mixed-type seats and will accommodate 188 passengers in total. The three-car vehicle with 172 longitudinal seats will accommodate 297 passengers, while the three-car vehicle with 154 transverse seats will carry 147 standing passengers additionally.

Each train set of the Country layout will include three cars. The layout will accommodate 163 seats and offer a total capacity of 291.

https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/class-230-d-train/

According to wiki a 156 has 140 seats and a 158 has 138 or 142 seats

Likewise the route to Saltburn were it not for the torturous alignment - survival of that route might have done a bit of good for some of the communities along the way, some of which today are quite significant in terms of deprivation.

It is missed by many just how struggling many of the communities along the coast between Whitby and Saltburn are. The loss of British Steel at Skinninggrove would be terminal.

I would say the Marston Vale 230s are the first serious attempt at looking at the branch line passenger experience in the UK since...ever, really. It will be interesting to watch the effect it has once they have fully settled down (initial unreliability will no doubt have a negative effect).

reliability has improved no end over the last few weeks. Staff shortages and level crossing failures are accounting for most cancellations.

Pleasant as it is, the NYMR has become ridiculously expensive. Last year it was £29 return for an adult, last week £31. No railcard discounts. That’s £62 for a couple. We decided against it just on price. They should be wary of pricing themselves out of ordinary people’s reach.

Your loss. They wont price themselves out of the market. The trains are bursting, especially since the Whitby extension began. It is also a long steam hauled journey and imo one of the best in the country. It is a roughly a 48 mile round trip from Pickering to Whitby. I don't think that price is excessive for a one off family holiday purchase that fills in an entire day and takes you to a fantastic seaside port by steam train!

 

[ainsworth74]

They wont price themselves out of the market. The trains are bursting, especially since the Whitby extension began.

One might even argue they're deploying that time honoured BR technique of pricing people off the railway to manage demand...

I bet the NYMR bring more passengers to Whitby than Northern ever would!

100% I would say that that is utterly unarguable and I wasn't certainly not making a suggestion that the paths should be reallocated to Northern!!

 

[DarloRich]

One might even argue they're deploying that time honoured BR technique of pricing people off the railway to manage demand...

Agreed - I have been on some of their trains and felt they more resembled commuter servcies than anything else!

100% I would say that that is utterly unarguable and I wasn't certainly not making a suggestion that the paths should be reallocated to Northern!!

I don't disagree that the Esk Valley should have a better service. It runs to a lovely tourist hotspot but it isnt as easy as many here like to think. As I said a dedicated 230 fleet and some timetable jiggery pokery would be perfect.

 

[yorksrob]

Really? I have used it in the winter ( when i had some business at various points along the line) and found the train dead. Whitby is a lovely place but in a storm in February it is quite bleak ( like everywhere else on the north east coast)



Is that an attempt at a serious point? Really? My branch line is quite different to the Esk Valley line. The obvious difference is the connection to the MML at one end and the WCML at the other.



don't know you are born. Solid pacer when i lived up that way!



Agreed.



I bet the NYMR bring more passengers to Whitby than Northern ever would!



Why? there is a perfectly good bus from Pickering to Malton. It is a bus service i will lower myself to use so it must be decent ( Coastliner?)





The 230's would be ideal for this line. A decent number of dedicated trains could be provided to allow for some flexibility on service provision. If only certain people here and in the wider world hadn't kicked up such a stink about cast offs and second hand trains.........



Agreed! Sensible strengthening should be the order of the day



Whitby had more going for it than the other places you mention!



A good point



it depends on the layout chosen with your 230. Assuming a 3 car train I think you are looking at 163 seats. On the Vale we have a mixed selection of seating ( tables, bays, longitudinal) giving us a seating fugue of 114. For a long run like the Esk Valley you would surely want traditional seating and tables. The bumpff also indicates a trolley could be carried. The beauty of these trains is that they are essentially modular and can be designed to meet customer needs.

From Rail Technology Magazine: The Class 230 D-Train will be available in different layouts with various amenities to satisfy specific needs of passengers. The vehicles will be fitted with universal access toilets, refreshment trolleys, tables, smart storage solutions and iPad holders.

The City configuration will have two and three cars per unit. The two-car vehicle will house 86 seats per unit and will offer a total passenger carrying capacity of 188. The three-car vehicle with 140 longitudinal seats will have a total capacity of 294, including standing passengers.

The Commuter variant will feature two and three cars per unit. The two-car vehicle will have 114 mixed-type seats and will accommodate 188 passengers in total. The three-car vehicle with 172 longitudinal seats will accommodate 297 passengers, while the three-car vehicle with 154 transverse seats will carry 147 standing passengers additionally.

Each train set of the Country layout will include three cars. The layout will accommodate 163 seats and offer a total capacity of 291.

https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/class-230-d-train/

According to wiki a 156 has 140 seats and a 158 has 138 or 142 seats



It is missed by many just how struggling many of the communities along the coast between Whitby and Saltburn are. The loss of British Steel at Skinninggrove would be terminal.



reliability has improved no end over the last few weeks. Staff shortages and level crossing failures are accounting for most cancellations.



Your loss. They wont price themselves out of the market. The trains are bursting, especially since the Whitby extension began. It is also a long steam hauled journey and imo one of the best in the country. It is a roughly a 48 mile round trip from Pickering to Whitby. I don't think that price is excessive for a one off family holiday purchase that fills in an entire day and takes you to a fantastic seaside port by steam train!

I often use the line in winter - precisely because I know the line isn't going to be full and standing. That said, it's never less than well patronised, albeit with fewer bucket and spade carrying families.

My point about the Marson vale is that it was reprieved in very similar circumstances, to serve the intermediate communities rather than the destinations. Even though it has a main line connection, neither Bedford nor Bletchley are a draw in the same way that Whitby is.

From what you've said about the 230, I'm still erring on the side of strengthened sprinters, although I'm keeping an open mind on it.

In the long term, a proper timetable as the line used to have is necessary.

 

[DarloRich]

My point about the Marson vale is that it was reprieved in very similar circumstances, to serve the intermediate communities rather than the destinations. Even though it has a main line connection, neither Bedford nor Bletchley are a draw in the same way that Whitby is.

it was saved because of the brickworks and the poor bus timetable. More is made of the later but I suspect the former was more operationally important!

In the long term, a proper timetable as the line used to have is necessary.

Agreed - there should be some easy wins on paper ( an earlier train and a later train for starters)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't disagree that the Esk Valley should have a better service. It runs to a lovely tourist hotspot but it isnt as easy as many here like to think. As I said a dedicated 230 fleet and some timetable jiggery pokery would be perfect.

In a way similar to the Conwy Valley perhaps? A poor timetable and run-down rolling stock mean it isn't even slightly attractive?

Mind you, I can't imagine a Conwy Valley train full and standing!

 

[yorksrob]

One might even argue they're deploying that time honoured BR technique of pricing people off the railway to manage demand...


100% I would say that that is utterly unarguable and I wasn't certainly not making a suggestion that the paths should be reallocated to Northern!!

I'm not entirely convinced of that. As @DarloRich mentioned, the fare for the NYMR is perfectly acceptable for a one-off steam ride, but it doesn't really count as a viable transport option in its own right.

What the Esk Valley does is the bread and butter business of getting daytrippers in. Seeing a full and standing sprinter empty out its passengers at Whitby really brings home just how important the line is.

Anyhow, with passing places at Battetsby and Glaisdale and two platforms at Whitby, there shouldn't be reason why the NYMR and additional Esk vally services can't be accommodated. If anything, I've heard it said from those in the know that there's more of a capacity issue at the Middlesborough end.

 

[yorksrob]

it was saved because of the brickworks and the poor bus timetable. More is made of the later but I suspect the former was more operationally important!



Agreed - there should be some easy wins on paper ( an earlier train and a later train for starters)

They need to get the easy wins under their belt, such as strengthening Saturday services, then they should start comsidering the longer term improvements.

 

[cactustwirly]

They need to get the easy wins under their belt, such as strengthening Saturday services, then they should start comsidering the longer term improvements.

But who's gonna pay for all that?
The Esk Valley line leaks money, so I doubt that Northern or the DfT have the appetite for more services

 

[DarloRich]

As @DarloRich mentioned, the fare for the NYMR is perfectly acceptable for a one-off steam ride, but it doesn't really count as a viable transport option in its own right.

it isnt meant to be though! The only section that could be considered such is Grosmont to Whitby. That is £14

 

[yorksrob]

But who's gonna pay for all that?
The Esk Valley line leaks money, so I doubt that Northern or the DfT have the appetite for more services

The whole railway system would appear to 'leak' money to someone who doesn't recognise the value of public transport provision. It comes down to what is public transport for in the first place.

 

[geoffk]

I've been on the ex-Whitby school train, and there were uniformed students right the way up to Great Ayton (where I got off).

OK didn't realise that. But I think most get off at Sleights and Ruswarp so any capacity issues are only for a short distance.

The Tamar Valley line (Plymouth – Gunnislake) shares with the Esk Valley line the difficulty of serving some of the intermediate settlements by road because the local geography makes bus links difficult. Gunnislake to Plymouth needs a change of bus which almost doubles the journey time. Reedham to Lowestoft would be another, either the train or across the ferry.

I guess this is part of the reason these lines survived.