When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[The Lad]

With the best will in the world it will never be a fast line, therefore not much advantage in skipping stations, the bus must win for Whitby - Middlesborough journeys but it provides useful links along the valley. That is why it has survived. It would have been ideal for 230's

 

[MML]

Yes, the line would have been a perfect fit for a dedicated stand alone fleet of 3 x 230s, much like the Marston Vale. If only Northern hadn't ruled out their use as a knee-jerk reaction to negative publicity on the use of secondhand underground stock as a pacer replacement.
60mph max speed but improved acceleration would have helped journey times. 3-car would have provided capacity increase at relatively low capital cost.
156's could then be used elsewhere on the network.
Only alternative would be to attach 153 to the 156 at peak times.
Let's hope Vivarail approach Northern again to demonstrate that a small, locally supported dedicated fleet can work.

 

[Roger100]

I hope to make the trip this year, but it's not easy. My nearest station is Hartlepool, and there is one direct train to Whitby, a twenty minute wait then the same train back. Probably my best bet is to get the earlier train and change at Middlesbrough, which gives me 4 hours at Whitby.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Was on the 10.20 from Middlesbrough to Whitby today. Was as per the last couple of times I have used it full and standing by a few stops down the line with a manic scrum to ensure a seat at the start.
This is even on a so-called Summer's day with distinctly patchy weather.
I was one of the brave/mad ones who came all the way from King's Cross.
Routed by LNER 7.00 to Darlington then to Middlesbrough then to Whitby all cross or same platform interchange.
Other times had been scheduled to change at York involving stairs/lifts then to Middlesbrough so this was a pleasant change.
Have done KGX to YRK thence bus to Whitby but that led to a long delay when the train was cancelled and missed the bus and had to wait a long time for the next one.
Return journey booking this time was interesting...
LNER routing us to Middlesbrough then York with minimal time to change at York and stairs/lifts with luggage and someone struggling to walk at the moment and more expensive than the outward journey.
Tried other booking engines.
XC and IIRC others came up with a cheaper ticket but bizarrely required an extra change of trains at Nunthorpe(?) Just tried to check this and it doesn't any more?!
In the end got a cheaper ticket via Train Split with a longer wait at York of about 40 minutes but with no stairs or lifts so that suits us fine!
This journey is only for the dedicated Whitby fan!

 

[bramling]

How is scrapping 321's supposed to improve the Whitby branch ?

One presumes the point is that 321s are not yet life-expired, so spending money on replacing them is wasteful, and the investment could go elsewhere instead. This would all depend on the economics of such replacement though.

It does feel wrong that we are going to have a situation of many perfectly good trains sitting stored or getting scrapped, especially when money has been spent on them - for example the 365s being made 2020 compliant, or the 455 retractioning.

This doesn’t really help Whitby move up the priority list though.

 

[Starmill]

Northern are apparently due to be getting rid of 153's. At the very least, to ameliorate an unacceptable situation, these should be retained to make the existing services three carriages. In the longer term, a decent timetable needs to be instituted, one that doesn't rely on wild schemes linked to quarrys and the like.

It seems the OP already knows the answer to their points:

A lot of this is pie in the sky.

 

[SideshowBob]

A lot of this is pie in the sky.

It seems the OP already knows the answer to their points:

This seems rather disingenuous - the "pie in the sky" comment was clearly in response to talk of large-scale infrastructure upgrades when the OP had only called for improvements in train capacity and timetabling. Personally, I can't comment on the former but would happily support them in the latter as it's currently about as much use as rubber lips on a woodpecker.

 

[ffm]

158s have begun their appearances on the branch since the timetable change

 

[yorksrob]

It seems the OP already knows the answer to their points:

Whilst i think it's pie in the sky to expect large scale infrastructure improvements on the line, I don't think it's pie in the sky to expect a decent timetable on the route, with adequate capacity.

To be honest, I'm a little surprised that you seem to do so !

This seems rather disingenuous - the "pie in the sky" comment was clearly in response to talk of large-scale infrastructure upgrades when the OP had only called for improvements in train capacity and timetabling. Personally, I can't comment on the former but would happily support them in the latter as it's currently about as much use as rubber lips on a woodpecker.

Quite

 

[yorksrob]

One presumes the point is that 321s are not yet life-expired, so spending money on replacing them is wasteful, and the investment could go elsewhere instead. This would all depend on the economics of such replacement though.

It does feel wrong that we are going to have a situation of many perfectly good trains sitting stored or getting scrapped, especially when money has been spent on them - for example the 365s being made 2020 compliant, or the 455 retractioning.

This doesn’t really help Whitby move up the priority list though.

Yes, well it's the whole electricity versus diesel issue again. It seems that we can buy electric trains like sweets in a candy shop, yet diesel units are a little harder to come by.

But then again, perhaps not, given that we have a load of 153's that are supposedly going to be given up during this franchise. If we really haven't got enough DMU's to have two on the Whitby line at the same time, then we really ought to be thinking about permanently reforming them into longer units.

 

[trainophile]

Another problem with overcrowding is that a large percentage of travellers to Whitby will have suitcases, and there's not much room to stow them except the overhead racks.

 

[yorksrob]

In the north east of England you've got just one train per hour from Newcastle/ Sunderland down the coast to Hartlepool/ Middlesbrough.... you've got an electrified commuter route from Morpeth/ Cramlington into Newcastle with just an hourly 75mph DMU... its the one corner of the Northern franchise not getting new trains... plus any spare 156s you find are 156s that could be used on boring things like additional capacity on lines into Manchester/ Leeds etc... so whilst I can see the desire for an increased capacity on a scenic rural line, it's hard to ignore the Opportunity Cost.

Well, it's not a zero-sum game. Why are Northern running an electrified route with a 70mph DMU ? It's not as though there is a shortage of spare electric units. You're assuming an intrinsic link between the lack of diesel rolling stock to Whitby and the 70mph DMU to Cramlington that doesn't exist.

 

[30907]

How many threads on this line have we had over the years?

Journey time will remain a problem unless linespeeds can be massively upgraded - you can save a minute or two by replacing key tokens with son-of-RETB, and another by automating the level crossings at the Whitby

The fifth train (presumably the evening one) is coming according to
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-dec-2019-timetable-bid.184384/

Meanwhile, the intriguing feature of the "new" timetable is that a unit appears to stand spare in Middlesborough Sidings from 10.00 till close after working a Saltburn-Nunthorpe.

Is that actually so, does anyone know?

Then it ought to be possible to use it to strengthen the busy 10.20 Whitby on Saturdays and in the holidays, even if it means using single door working intermediately (they do it on the Mallaig Extension so...). (It would be even better to run it as an additional train, but you'd have to negotiate paths with the NYMR).
There also seems to be a path for the same unit to run a return trip from MBO at 1635 or 1700 which might be better than doubling-up in the evening.

That between them would cover the main leisure travel flows. Commuting from the Whitby end to Middlesborough is never going to be a mass market, and from Sleights to Great Ayton is a traffic desert, and frankly I can't see why people get excited about the prospect.

But of course there are crew and mileage costs involved in all this.

 

[jayah]

If that was the case, nobody would ever use Merseyrail - it takes 35 minutes (a slowdown of about 7 minutes since Merseyrail opened) from Ormskirk to Liverpool Central, a distance of about 12 miles or thereabouts.

But it is frequent, generally fairly reliable, reasonably priced and well connected, so it is well used.

The two aren't really comparable. In that example the train is still faster than driving or the public bus, dismal as it is.

How many threads on this line have we had over the years?

Journey time will remain a problem unless linespeeds can be massively upgraded - you can save a minute or two by replacing key tokens with son-of-RETB, and another by automating the level crossings at the Whitby

The fifth train (presumably the evening one) is coming according to
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-dec-2019-timetable-bid.184384/

Meanwhile, the intriguing feature of the "new" timetable is that a unit appears to stand spare in Middlesborough Sidings from 10.00 till close after working a Saltburn-Nunthorpe.

Is that actually so, does anyone know?

Then it ought to be possible to use it to strengthen the busy 10.20 Whitby on Saturdays and in the holidays, even if it means using single door working intermediately (they do it on the Mallaig Extension so...). (It would be even better to run it as an additional train, but you'd have to negotiate paths with the NYMR).
There also seems to be a path for the same unit to run a return trip from MBO at 1635 or 1700 which might be better than doubling-up in the evening.

That between them would cover the main leisure travel flows. Commuting from the Whitby end to Middlesborough is never going to be a mass market, and from Sleights to Great Ayton is a traffic desert, and frankly I can't see why people get excited about the prospect.

But of course there are crew and mileage costs involved in all this.

The alignment isn't that bad. There are a few little used stations that need closing for the greater good. Battersby needs bypassing completely. Then it is the dilapidated track a antiquated methods of working. It isn't such a monumental undertaking to get a fair alignment up from 30mph to 60/75mph.

Yup - if it was as profitable as some enthusiasts suggest then it seems strange that little effort is made... maybe because it's not profitable (as you say)





It's marginal under two hundred departing passengers per day, i.e. just under fifty passengers per departure (I'm not including the fifth departure on Friday evenings). So enough for a single 153 to meet the average demand, with a few seats spare.

My understanding was that the school services were too busy for a single Pacer to cope with (hence the need for a 156)... correct me if I'm wrong?

So, if the school kids are too many for a 142 (which must mean around a hundred passengers on the 08:37 arrival/ 16:00 departure?) then that brings down the average numbers on the other three departures a little (probably from around the average capacity of a single decker bus to the average capacity of a minibus).

I know that any attempt to be realistic about current passenger numbers will attract the "ah, but if you ran lots more services then more people might use it" argument from Field Of Dreams - and this is true to an extent... but how high is it up the list of priorities?

In the north east of England you've got just one train per hour from Newcastle/ Sunderland down the coast to Hartlepool/ Middlesbrough.... you've got an electrified commuter route from Morpeth/ Cramlington into Newcastle with just an hourly 75mph DMU... its the one corner of the Northern franchise not getting new trains... plus any spare 156s you find are 156s that could be used on boring things like additional capacity on lines into Manchester/ Leeds etc... so whilst I can see the desire for an increased capacity on a scenic rural line, it's hard to ignore the Opportunity Cost.

Unfortunately the Northern franchise has more corners than sides. Whitby is debated disproportionately because a well read columnist is based there, it is a tourist destination and there are steam trains. But the same debate could be had about many other places such as Barrow, Skegness or indeed the Middlesborough - Newcastle axis.

Opportunity cost is about priorities. Is it a coincidence all of these areas are incredibly deprived and left behind? Meanwhile fantastic sums are spent on providing the same timetable with fewer carbons emissions, improving already excellent links to London, or scrapping whole fleets of mid-life EMUs.

The debate isn't really about Whitby it is about what transport policy is meant to achieve.

 

[yorksrob]

How many threads on this line have we had over the years?

Journey time will remain a problem unless linespeeds can be massively upgraded - you can save a minute or two by replacing key tokens with son-of-RETB, and another by automating the level crossings at the Whitby

The fifth train (presumably the evening one) is coming according to
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-dec-2019-timetable-bid.184384/

Meanwhile, the intriguing feature of the "new" timetable is that a unit appears to stand spare in Middlesborough Sidings from 10.00 till close after working a Saltburn-Nunthorpe.

Is that actually so, does anyone know?

Then it ought to be possible to use it to strengthen the busy 10.20 Whitby on Saturdays and in the holidays, even if it means using single door working intermediately (they do it on the Mallaig Extension so...). (It would be even better to run it as an additional train, but you'd have to negotiate paths with the NYMR).
There also seems to be a path for the same unit to run a return trip from MBO at 1635 or 1700 which might be better than doubling-up in the evening.

That between them would cover the main leisure travel flows. Commuting from the Whitby end to Middlesborough is never going to be a mass market, and from Sleights to Great Ayton is a traffic desert, and frankly I can't see why people get excited about the prospect.

But of course there are crew and mileage costs involved in all this.

I think the fifth train is the early morning one.

Northern have used the spare unit to strengthen the existing train on occasions on busy Saturdays, but this is rare, and never seems to be done on any logical, pre-planned basis. Frankly, it would be good if they diagrammed it every Saturday between June and September or thereabouts.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There are a few little used stations that need closing for the greater good.

Those small villages, which are hard to access by road, are the only reason why Beeching didn't close the line in the 60s. Even now the schools traffic is the line's bread and butter.

My understanding was that the school services were too busy for a single Pacer to cope with (hence the need for a 156)... correct me if I'm wrong?

Yes, that's right. Originally you had 2x142 but NYCC wanted it to be through-gangway, so a 3-car 144 became the permanent resident. When they were refurbished and the bench seats taken out the seating capacity dropped and it became a 156.

Since the timetable changes you see more 142s down that way, as there's more interworking with the Durham Coast, but never on the schools trains. As the 142s get killed off you'll see the 158s getting down that way more often, as Heaton will only have 156s and 158s.

Even in summer a 156 is usually fine, unless you get a scorching hot Saturday or a steam event on the NYMR. And even with the NYMR, I've been one of about 10 on the last Whitby-Newcastle after their big Railway at War event.

This is part of the trouble with any seaside branch line. If it's scorching hot it'll be rammed but if it's cool and wet it won't. What do you cater for? You don't get holidaymakers to British seaside resorts anymore, it's all day trips, and that traffic is so variable.

 

[yorksrob]

Those small villages, which are hard to access by road, are the only reason why Beeching didn't close the line in the 60s. Even now the schools traffic is the line's bread and butter.



Yes, that's right. Originally you had 2x142 but NYCC wanted it to be through-gangway, so a 3-car 144 became the permanent resident. When they were refurbished and the bench seats taken out the seating capacity dropped and it became a 156.

Since the timetable changes you see more 142s down that way, as there's more interworking with the Durham Coast, but never on the schools trains. As the 142s get killed off you'll see the 158s getting down that way more often, as Heaton will only have 156s and 158s.

Even in summer a 156 is usually fine, unless you get a scorching hot Saturday or a steam event on the NYMR. And even with the NYMR, I've been one of about 10 on the last Whitby-Newcastle after their big Railway at War event.

This is part of the trouble with any seaside branch line. If it's scorching hot it'll be rammed but if it's cool and wet it won't. What do you cater for? You don't get holidaymakers to British seaside resorts anymore, it's all day trips, and that traffic is so variable.

Well, it wasn't exactly scorchio yesterday, yet the train both ways was full and standing.

What do you cater for ? Large numbers of day trippers on a Saturday (rather than the bare minimum you can get away with).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Well, it wasn't exactly scorchio yesterday, yet the train both ways was full and standing.

I'm surprised, it was miserable here yesterday. If it's genuinely always that busy then an extra unit can be justified. But I'm honestly surprised if it is, unless the random unit generator throws up a single 142.

That said, when I daytrip to Whitby I normally take the X9/X10 to Middlesbrough then the X93. It's cheaper and, overall, it is usually quicker. And Middlesbrough bus station is excellent and a much nicer place to wait than Middlesbrough rail station.

The dogboxes left the north east a long time ago because Heaton drivers refused to drive them, so lobbing a 153 on the back isn't straightforward.

 

[Esker-pades]

"All the way" to Sleights and Ruswarp?

I've been on the ex-Whitby school train, and there were uniformed students right the way up to Great Ayton (where I got off).

 

[darloscott]

Yes the spare unit is nearly always in Middlesbrough all day, until recently I worked east of Middlesbrough and as I drove home at 5pm every night the 142 was nearly always there, it only gets pinched if something goes wrong during the day. Normally 4 days out of 5 it would be sat there, it gets attached to a later Middlesbrough-Darlington service about 2200 if I remember right.

As for the Whitby branch and summer Saturdays, let's not forget the same carry on happens on the Saltburn services which are never strengthened to take account of expected loads. I spent the day watching mainly the buses with loadings to both Whitby and Redcar/Saltburn back in May on a beautiful sunny Saturday and unsurprisingly the 142s on the Saltburn services were struggling to cope with the crowds flocking to the seaside, with the timetable going out of the window and having to resort to turning trains at Redcar to get them back on time which left an hour gap right at 5pm when most people were travelling home...

 

[yorksrob]

I'm surprised, it was miserable here yesterday. If it's genuinely always that busy then an extra unit can be justified. But I'm honestly surprised if it is, unless the random unit generator throws up a single 142.

That said, when I daytrip to Whitby I normally take the X9/X10 to Middlesbrough then the X93. It's cheaper and, overall, it is usually quicker. And Middlesbrough bus station is excellent and a much nicer place to wait than Middlesbrough rail station.

The dogboxes left the north east a long time ago because Heaton drivers refused to drive them, so lobbing a 153 on the back isn't straightforward.

The recent poor wweather was one of the reasons why I was hoping for a quieter journey. It wasn't to be, unfortunately.

I disagree about Middlesborough station. It has some really nice architecture and the Stottie place does a decent cup of tea. The bus station, on the other hand, I found to be overcrowded and warren like.

That's interesting information about the 153's BTW. Given the forthcoming regulations, it's time for them to be permanently formed with other units with the cramped cab out of use.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes the spare unit is nearly always in Middlesbrough all day, until recently I worked east of Middlesbrough and as I drove home at 5pm every night the 142 was nearly always there, it only gets pinched if something goes wrong during the day. Normally 4 days out of 5 it would be sat there, it gets attached to a later Middlesbrough-Darlington service about 2200 if I remember right.

As for the Whitby branch and summer Saturdays, let's not forget the same carry on happens on the Saltburn services which are never strengthened to take account of expected loads. I spent the day watching mainly the buses with loadings to both Whitby and Redcar/Saltburn back in May on a beautiful sunny Saturday and unsurprisingly the 142s on the Saltburn services were struggling to cope with the crowds flocking to the seaside, with the timetable going out of the window and having to resort to turning trains at Redcar to get them back on time which left an hour gap right at 5pm when most people were travelling home...

Interestingly, yesterday I saw a 156 on a Saltburn service, which was a first for me.

 

[Roose]

Yes, the line would have been a perfect fit for a dedicated stand alone fleet of 3 x 230s, much like the Marston Vale. If only Northern hadn't ruled out their use as a knee-jerk reaction to negative publicity on the use of secondhand underground stock as a pacer replacement.

Northern didn't rule them out.

They were barred by the DfT in the Invitation to Tender for the franchise.

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder how much capacity a 3 carriage 230 would have, as opposed to a 2 carriage 156/158 ?

 

[darloscott]

Interestingly, yesterday I saw a 156 on a Saltburn service, which was a first for me.

Yes there have been a few 156s on Saltburns recently, indeed 158s pop up every now and again in their place. The Whitby branch is a solid 156 performer apart from the afternoon trip where it pootles off to Hexham (I don't know why?) replaced by a 158 from Hexham, and then swap back on the return.

 

[Darandio]

Interestingly, yesterday I saw a 156 on a Saltburn service, which was a first for me.

We've been spoiled a bit lately with them, makes a refreshing change.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes there have been a few 156s on Saltburns recently, indeed 158s pop up every now and again in their place. The Whitby branch is a solid 156 performer apart from the afternoon trip where it pootles off to Hexham (I don't know why?) replaced by a 158 from Hexham, and then swap back on the return.

Yes, they seem to have been mixing things up a bit recently !

 

[yorksrob]

We've been spoiled a bit lately with them, makes a refreshing change.

Yes, they are good units.

You were quite right - it seems tht 142's have been putting more appearances on the Whitby line since the timetable change. One would have struggled yesterday !

 

[Darandio]

Yes, they are good units.

You were quite right - it seems tht 142's have been putting more appearances on the Whitby line since the timetable change. One would have struggled yesterday !

I still put it down to my bad luck! Even the kids get it bad some times, this was a term day. https://flic.kr/p/2egEn81

 

[yorksrob]

I still put it down to my bad luck! Even the kids get it bad some times, this was a term day. https://flic.kr/p/2egEn81

Oh dear.

I suppose at least when it was a relatively self-contained diagram, the route wasn't subject to Northern's random unit generator !