Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[Tom C]

They have introduced a "new" revised version of the "new" timetable will come into effect from Monday.

Basically it looks the same as the old one except there is now a 2 hour gap between trains serving London Bridge in the evening peak hours.

Sutton services are still hourly, Brighton services are still half hourly and nothing running fast from Haywayrds Heath and Sevenoaks services are still half hourly.

Ticket acceptance is still the same............EMT, Southern, SWT, LUL , Buses etc etc

They DO say that additional services will be added as resources become available so check before travelling.........or simply use someone else, its going to be quicker.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Can you amplify this?

Due to a bridge slide under Blackfriars station the core from Herne Hill/London Bridge to St Pancras will be closed from 25-30 December. During this time the standard alternate routes will be vaild with FCC tickets valid on Buses and Tubes. Same as the weekend closures only longer. Full services will start 31st (New years eve).

They have introduced a "new" revised version of the "new" timetable will come into effect from Monday.

Basically it looks the same as the old one except there is now a 2 hour gap between trains serving London Bridge in the evening peak hours.

Sutton services are still hourly, Brighton services are still half hourly and nothing running fast from Haywayrds Heath and Sevenoaks services are still half hourly.

Ticket acceptance is still the same............EMT, Southern, SWT, LUL , Buses etc etc

They DO say that additional services will be added as resources become available so check before travelling.........or simply use someone else, its going to be quicker.

Revised being less London Bridge (like you said's), less Beckenham Junction and all Gillingham's being Rochester services.

 

[Minstral25]

Good change for Redhill going into London in the early morning - extra Thameslink train at 6:56 via London Bridge and the 6:33 is now part of the emergency timetable which it wasn't before.

Naturally nothing useful back in the evening as ever

 

[jon0844]

Why are there no more FCC/SET jointly run trains to Gillingham? Is this temporary? It's shown as a destination onboard trains - or are they going to be changed?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Why are there no more FCC/SET jointly run trains to Gillingham? Is this temporary? It's shown as a destination onboard trains - or are they going to be changed?

Actually what you refer to is the old timetable which ended friday. No-ones seen the Rochester yet as the first one is going to leave Bedford shortly after I posted this message! The reason being is pathing issues with the High Speed trains means its cut back two stations. In fact a few FCC/SET joint services see cut backs. And no its not temporary as plans show the service running as far as Rochester only in 2015 when the full TLP is running (now we know why its cut back in the 'master pla'.

Good change for Redhill going into London in the early morning - extra Thameslink train at 6:56 via London Bridge and the 6:33 is now part of the emergency timetable which it wasn't before.

Naturally nothing useful back in the evening as ever

Well whenever the TLP is finished Redhill will get a better service with most trains going there (and being 12 car services). Tho its a long wait for a daily commuter.

 

[jon0844]

Sorry, I meant shown on trains on the route maps - not CIS. I guess FCC will now have to put little stickers to cover this up.

Any idea why they bothered to run trains to/from Gillingham for such a short time - just in case anyone might actually get used to using it? I guess they've got HS1 now - but what a premium they'll have to now pay, and it won't get them to Bedford (or indeed stations like Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars etc).

 

[johnb]

Because the Gillingham-Blackfriars trains already existed (at exactly the same timings) as SET services - they became part of Thameslink so that the bays at BFR could be closed.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Sorry, I meant shown on trains on the route maps - not CIS. I guess FCC will now have to put little stickers to cover this up.

Any idea why they bothered to run trains to/from Gillingham for such a short time - just in case anyone might actually get used to using it? I guess they've got HS1 now - but what a premium they'll have to now pay, and it won't get them to Bedford (or indeed stations like Farringdon, City Thameslink, Blackfriars etc).

What premium? They can use the Javelins with the existing tickets as all rickets are valid on Javelins between station as long as it doesn't use HS1. Ie Between Rochester and Gillingham is fine on a normal ticket.

Note as well that the single morning train has always been from Rochester anyway so this balances it out to the same evening destination. Chatham and Gillingham are only a short distance from Rochester anyway (although the railways manages to go the indirect route).

So really its a minor change for the benefit of most people.

 

[jon0844]

I meant, someone from Gillingham getting a service to St Pancras now only being able to get back to St Pancras by using HS1. Let's forget about the other routes for now, as people like to go without changing.

It may well be a small number of people, although I guess SET is hoping this isn't the case as they want people to be using HS1 from Gillingham and beyond!! Obviously HS1 is considerably faster, but now requires changing to go elsewhere on the FCC line.

Anyway - let's not worry too much. I only wanted a basic explanation; there weren't exactly many trains doing this run each day anyway. However, I was under the impression from the route maps and press releases that this was a new service, when it was obviously only temporary.

 

[Edvid]

There are two Rochester services that depart StP at 17.14 - one is a HS1 service, the other a TL service. I wonder if that caught anyone out yesterday.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I meant, someone from Gillingham getting a service to St Pancras now only being able to get back to St Pancras by using HS1. Let's forget about the other routes for now, as people like to go without changing.

It may well be a small number of people, although I guess SET is hoping this isn't the case as they want people to be using HS1 from Gillingham and beyond!! Obviously HS1 is considerably faster, but now requires changing to go elsewhere on the FCC line.

Anyway - let's not worry too much. I only wanted a basic explanation; there weren't exactly many trains doing this run each day anyway. However, I was under the impression from the route maps and press releases that this was a new service, when it was obviously only temporary.

To be fair is wasn't a temporary service and its FCC trying to map another TOCs service. With the current events I think we can actually forgive FCC for not picking this one up as SET didn't inform FCC that the service was changing other than the drivers/train planning side of things.

**Note**

New 377/5 diagrams distance

May 09 - 7,998.72
December - 10,365.44

An increase of 2,366.72 miles a day for the 377's (roughly 25% increase).

 

[Class377]

So do you know the 377 plan for the coming week? With the core closed will they be running still?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

So do you know the 377 plan for the coming week? With the core closed will they be running still?

Its all choatic at the moment. They *may* be running but it won't be confirmed until the units are actually running in service.

**update**

377501 is stabled at Selhurst after returning from Bombardier on 18/12/09

377503 arrived at Selhurst 24/12/09. Currently expected to be in service with FCC on 21/01/10.

377522 is stabled at Selhurst ready for service.

377523 is expected to be ready w/c 28/12/09.

Bombardier has installed mark 2 of the metal shields on 19 of the 377/5. They have reduced the SDO faults. Still hoped software changes will removed all problems.

NXEMU contract now expected to be award 4th quarter 2010.

Currently FCC have 21 377/5 available for service. 6 are stabled with Southeastern, 2 at Selhurst (501/522) and the rest spilt between Cauldwell and Cricklewood. Still unsure why FCC can't cope with the Selhurst 2 when shortly they will have 4 units to stable (501/503/522/ 523) and I doubt Southern will want units perimately stabled there.

 

[thefab444]

Revised being less London Bridge (like you said's), less Beckenham Junction and all Gillingham's being Rochester services.

I notice in the new timetable (if it ever takes effect!), one of the two Beckenham Junction services is now booked to terminate at Kent House! Any reason why?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I notice in the new timetable (if it ever takes effect!), one of the two Beckenham Junction services is now booked to terminate at Kent House! Any reason why?

It comes back through the Core to make an extra northbound peak service. Reasonable as the service was never heavily used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
377522 went into service on 29th December straight from Selhurst on a East Croydon-Brighton service. The unit was paired with 501 on its third restart with FCC.

Note 377522 has never been to its 'home' depot of Cauldwell yet despite two days in passenger service.

 

[westcoaster]

It comes back through the Core to make an extra northbound peak service. Reasonable as the service was never heavily used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
377522 went into service on 29th December straight from Selhurst on a East Croydon-Brighton service. The unit was paired with 501 on its third restart with FCC.

Note 377522 has never been to its 'home' depot of Cauldwell yet despite two days in passenger service.

i heard that they were short of unit's on the southern side, this is why 522/501 were used, makes a change from shortage of drivers.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

i heard that they were short of unit's on the southern side, this is why 522/501 were used, makes a change from shortage of drivers.

Interesting development to have two 8 car 377/5 out on the southern side of the network (afterall when the Core's been open there's only been a single 8 car running) but thats the joy of having large % of Brighton drivers trained up on the 377's.

And always good to see new units out in service and working. (Maybe thats the secret, keep them on one voltage and no changeovers).

 

[Minstral25]

Why are the 377's kept away from the southern side services? I thought they were for use on Brighton-Bedford trains!

 

[Class377]

Do you know what the 377 plans are today? I was under the impression they run Sundays now but only south of the core? But as they're running through the core today, IDK.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Why are the 377's kept away from the southern side services? I thought they were for use on Brighton-Bedford trains!

On the weekends they kept them away from the Southern side as the only FCC depot for 377's is Cauldwell meaning any units caught south of the river during Core blocks didn't get looked after expect with special arrangements with Southern.

Do you know what the 377 plans are today? I was under the impression they run Sundays now but only south of the core? But as they're running through the core today, IDK.

When the Core is open anything can happen. I only have access to standad diagrams which are for Core closures. When the Core is open then I have no information and its depends on that weeks planning. It also depends on if there is any driver able to work a 377 there and back as currently there is a large number of FCC drivers unable to drive 377's.

 

[Minstral25]

On the weekends they kept them away from the Southern side as the only FCC depot for 377's is Cauldwell meaning any units caught south of the river during Core blocks didn't get looked after expect with special arrangements with Southern.


So they trained up most Brighton drivers to drive the 377's but then did not train the local maintenance staff on 377's? Sounds like good management strategy there! Do FCC currently have a proper maintenance depot at the Brighton end or is everything sub-contracted to Southern?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

On the weekends they kept them away from the Southern side as the only FCC depot for 377's is Cauldwell meaning any units caught south of the river during Core blocks didn't get looked after expect with special arrangements with Southern.


So they trained up most Brighton drivers to drive the 377's but then did not train the local maintenance staff on 377's? Sounds like good management strategy there! Do FCC currently have a proper maintenance depot at the Brighton end or is everything sub-contracted to Southern?

What local maintance team? All FCC maintance staff are based north of London (Hornsey, Cricklewood and Bedford). Southern can and have done maintance while the units were on comissioning but Southern only provide space for units to be stabled. After all it makes no business sense to use your resouces for another company.

Southern do no maintance on FCC units unless its an emegency. Hence why the toilets tend to be locked out of use at the weekends during the core closures south of London. No where to empty the tanks.

Its all tied into the Thameslink programme where FCC needed extra units to cover the Sevenoaks route so the 377's cover for them on the flagship route. At the weekends this extra need isn't there so they rest the 377/5 fleet. Althought now its changed and they have a need to provide a 377 jounery from Brighton in the AM peak as due to restrictive berthing places one of the sunday units is needed to be run by a 377/5 8 car set.

Key to all this is the money Southern would charge FCC to do the work.

 

[westcoaster]

FCC do have fitters based at brighton, they carry out running repairs only, i.e defective lights/windowscreen wipers/shoe fuses and other light work but that is it.

 

[jon0844]

I'm shocked that they lock the toilets out of use because they can't empty them - surely they've got a requirement to provide such facilities?

I know there are exemptions on trains that don't have toilets, although there are then rules on toilets at stations.

 

[Minstral25]

What local maintance team? All FCC maintance staff are based north of London (Hornsey, Cricklewood and Bedford). Southern can and have done maintance while the units were on comissioning but Southern only provide space for units to be stabled. After all it makes no business sense to use your resouces for another company.

Southern do no maintance on FCC units unless its an emegency. Hence why the toilets tend to be locked out of use at the weekends during the core closures south of London. No where to empty the tanks.

Its all tied into the Thameslink programme where FCC needed extra units to cover the Sevenoaks route so the 377's cover for them on the flagship route. At the weekends this extra need isn't there so they rest the 377/5 fleet. Althought now its changed and they have a need to provide a 377 jounery from Brighton in the AM peak as due to restrictive berthing places one of the sunday units is needed to be run by a 377/5 8 car set.

Key to all this is the money Southern would charge FCC to do the work.

Thanks for the info (excellent as always) - I just assumed that there would be some form of maintenance South of the River.

It does puzzle me though, if they do not have their own why then not contract Southern properly (which I guess would be cheaper than setting up their own) and get the units stabled in Brighton at least cleaned and checked! They'd still have to do it if they were at Cauldwell. Surely a long term contract rather than emergency cover would be cost effective or are they like Thameslink was and focused North of London only?

 

[westcoaster]

Thanks for the info (excellent as always) - I just assumed that there would be some form of maintenance South of the River.

It does puzzle me though, if they do not have their own why then not contract Southern properly (which I guess would be cheaper than setting up their own) and get the units stabled in Brighton at least cleaned and checked! They'd still have to do it if they were at Cauldwell. Surely a long term contract rather than emergency cover would be cost effective or are they like Thameslink was and focused North of London only?

As i said above there are fitters based at brighton, and they carry out running repairs.
FCC has in the last coupls of weeks employed their own cleaners based at brighton, and no longer sub-contract form southern.
At weekends when units are stuck on the southern region, most turns make a trip onto lovers walk for tanking and cet'ing, also some units spend the night at selhurst where they are cleaned and tanked.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

As i said above there are fitters based at brighton, and they carry out running repairs.
FCC has in the last coupls of weeks employed their own cleaners based at brighton, and no longer sub-contract form southern.
At weekends when units are stuck on the southern region, most turns make a trip onto lovers walk for tanking and cet'ing, also some units spend the night at selhurst where they are cleaned and tanked.

Your quote of me isn't what I wrote. How strange. Yes the new diagrams seem more cooperation between FCC and Southern on the south end of the line. I did forget about the Fitters at brighton.

While most of the country suffers from snow and ice problems, FCC is hit by fire with a major lineside fire at Camberwell (and at one point this morning news that Elephant & Castle wasn't to open today). Meanwhile the march of the TLP continues forward after some major works over the holiday period...... ...

Fleet

Units in passenger service 377501/502/504/ 505/506/507/ 508/509/510/ 511/512/513/ 514/515/516/ 517/518/519/ 520/521/522

377501 has returned to service

377503 is on DC testing this week and expected at Cauldwell w/c 11/01 (next week)

377504 is to return to Bombardier for 'internal re-fit under warranty' once 503 is at Cauldwell.

377523 has had a wheel change by Southern at Selhurst and is expected at Cauldwell tomorrow (07/01)

Livery of the 377/5 is suspended due to 'poor weather conditions'.

The 377/5 are currently experiencing failures of the customer CIS system and Bombardier is looking into and retesting the system.

Infrastructure

St Pancras bi-direction signalling system came into use allowing 6tph to be turned in the low level platforms.

West Hampstead - comissioning of the north-to-north and south-to-south turnbacks have been put back till October due to lack of 'appropiate possession access'. Moving one signal to allow platform extension works is now put back to 09/05/10 after Network didn't consult EMT/FOC.

Stations

Blackfriars bridge slide went ok (tho it was a close run thing with the deadline being met, just).

Farringdon saw plain lining of the former junction to Moorgate to allow platform extension works to continue. With construction work 'predicted to be continuous throughtout 2010' FCC and LUL are having a meeting with NR next week to discuss issues including the final completion date for the finishing of the KO0 bridge which was due to be completed by March 2009.

2010 will see all 377/5 in service and livery complete and the TLP move into pure construction mode until next summer when 12 car testing begins in earnst in day times hours.

 

[westcoaster]

went past the seen of the fire today looks quite bad with buckled scaffolding and burnt wood all over the place+main road, im amased the high rise crane never buckled, as it had scald marks up it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8443147.stm

 

[mackenzie_blu]

went past the seen of the fire today looks quite bad with buckled scaffolding and burnt wood all over the place+main road, im amased the high rise crane never buckled, as it had scald marks up it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8443147.stm

Nasty. Heard there was a crane involved but the main problem for the railway was gas cyclinders which some had already exploded when they shut the lines down. Looks like a luckly escape then. At 0430 the offical line was Elephant and Castle was to close for the day!

 

[westcoaster]

as far as im aware e+c was open all day on the other hand balcombe has been shut all day.