Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[westcoaster]

Go Siemens,

One thing I've always wondered is if 350s got cleared for the Core section of the Thameslink route, would they have the same problems with switching from AC to DC at Farringdon and also the same problems with the doors at St Pancras?

i can answer some off this, with the doors on the 350's these are operated the same as on a 319 the driver/guard has full control over them(no stupid gps required), so no there would be no door trouble at all.

im not sure how the ac/dc change over happens on a desiro, but i believe the shoes stay down all the time on a 350, where as on a 377 they retract into a stowed position, so there would be no problem going ac/dc.

The main problem with the 377 change over was that there was too much juice in the 3rd rail and the mitrac on a 377 just said no and would retract the shoes, so there was no option but to go back on ac and escape to moorgate, this seems to have now been sorted out and there are 99% less failures at farringdon southbound.

Hope that helps.

 

[Aictos]

i can answer some off this, with the doors on the 350's these are operated the same as on a 319 the driver/guard has full control over them(no stupid gps required), so no there would be no door trouble at all.

im not sure how the ac/dc change over happens on a desiro, but i believe the shoes stay down all the time on a 350, where as on a 377 they retract into a stowed position, so there would be no problem going ac/dc.

The main problem with the 377 change over was that there was too much juice in the 3rd rail and the mitrac on a 377 just said no and would retract the shoes, so there was no option but to go back on ac and escape to moorgate, this seems to have now been sorted out and there are 99% less failures at farringdon southbound.

Hope that helps.

It does indeed, on clearance issues though are 350s/444s cleared for the route?

 

[westcoaster]

It does indeed, on clearance issues though are 350s/444s cleared for the route?

no the only trains cleared for the route between kentish town/b-friars are are 319's/377's, also 317's/31's/73's are allowed kentish town -moorgate tl.

and 465's/466's and also iirc 376's between b-friars and smithfield sidings.

 

[Pumbaa]

It does indeed, on clearance issues though are 350s/444s cleared for the route?

I think the question that we should be asking is "can they be cleared". Trains will only be cleared if there is a need to run them there. Eg the 314s are more or less the same as the 313s, but the 314s may not be cleared to run on the Hertford loop, as there has never been a need for them to be cleared. Hope that makes sense.

In answer to the question, I would imagine that they could be cleared, but there would be no need to do it.

Only thing against them is the fact that their stock is so damn heavy but apart from that, they seem to be pretty reliable.

And they're fixing this with the new gen Desiro City - new lighter bogies, new lighter modular body design, the other big thing is the doors. Dispatch times are a lot longer with Desiros than with Electrostars, other comparable new stock and with the 321s (and therefore probably most other BREL products) than they replaced.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

no the only trains cleared for the route between kentish town/b-friars are are 319's/377's, also 317's/31's/73's are allowed kentish town -moorgate tl.

and 465's/466's and also iirc 376's between b-friars and smithfield sidings.

376 are cleared as one has been used on a City-Sevenoaks a few times this year. The 375's are also cleared to City tho the software isn't happy as they tried to open the doors at City on a 375. Cue a 11min delay. Next day it ran through City and picked everyone up from Blackfriars instead.

 

[westcoaster]

376 are cleared as one has been used on a City-Sevenoaks a few times this year. The 375's are also cleared to City tho the software isn't happy as they tried to open the doors at City on a 375. Cue a 11min delay. Next day it ran through City and picked everyone up from Blackfriars instead.

Forgot about 375's, seeing as they are the same as 377's.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Go Siemens,

Only thing against them is the fact that their stock is so damn heavy but apart from that, they seem to be pretty reliable.

One thing I've always wondered is if 350s got cleared for the Core section of the Thameslink route, would they have the same problems with switching from AC to DC at Farringdon and also the same problems with the doors at St Pancras?

Actually the problems with the doors at St Pancras is to do with the OHLE interfering with the track side beacon. Its been made clear that its a fault with the track side beacons not the 377's on some briefings we've had. The latest fix to install metal shelding is Bombarbier trying to fix a problem that the beacon makers haven't been able to sort.

Personally I hate the look for the ends of the Siemens but I suppose if we want a train that works rather than looks good and should be kept in the sidings, Siemens is the way to go.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Forgot about 375's, seeing as they are the same as 377's.

Not quite, they work.

 

[Pumbaa]

Have a look at this - interesting take at least! And, knowing their anti-rail stance (with the exception of HS Rail) projects like TLP could do with trimming... aka no ATO, not as big increase in services...

 

[paul1609]

This is what I was on about in an earlier post. As I understand it the work carried out so far in the London Bridge Area means that the current Thameslink project would be massively over budget. Additionally there is no funding currently for the extra capacity needed for the extra Thameslink trains south of New Cross Gate (much of the existing spare capacity has been taken up by the East London Line).
Its all very woolly at the moment, but the situation is that unless considerable extra funding is forthcoming 2015 is likely to be a Thameslink 2000 Lite consisting of the existing rolling stock working on Bedford to Brighton, Luton to Sutton Loop and Bedford to somewhere in Kent. The connection to the Great Northern Lines is likely to be put off to a phase 2 sometime in the future and the earliest date for replacement rolling stock would be 2018.
The current FCC franchise would be broken up in 2015 and in the retendering would become part of the London Overground, South Central, SouthEastern and East Coast or East Anglia franchises.

 

[Aictos]

The current FCC franchise would be broken up in 2015 and in the retendering would become part of the London Overground, South Central, SouthEastern and East Coast or East Anglia franchises.

Well my view of it; would be to give the Sutton/Wimbledon services to London Overground from the Thameslink route together with the Hertford North/Welwyn Garden City/Letchworth Garden City services, Keep the Bedford to Brighton services with a Thameslink franchise together with the newer routes into Kent, the Cambridges and Peterboroughs to go with the East Coast franchise.

Just quickly though, is it quicker for the Kings Lynn services to go from Kings Cross or Liverpool Street?

 

[DjU]

I've seen the discussion of the FCC franchise being split up before and whilst it is slightly tangential, one word that I've never seen thrown in to the mix is Crossrail.

Whilst it is a good part of a decade away it is always good to keep things in mind.

If things were to be split up in similar way to Ajax or Paul mention.

GN Inners - LOROL
Sutton Loop - LOROL or Southern
GN Fasts - East Coast

And if the Thameslink project was scaled down as rumoured, It could leave you with a smaller simpler Cross London link which you could pair up with Crossrail as one Franchise responsible for both high volume Cross London rail links.

 

[jopsuk]

There's much less scope for "non-stop" running south of Cambridge on the Liverpool Street line- it's two track all the way (unless you count the Seven Sisters route through the Lea Valley) and pretty congested (especially the Broxbourne-Cheshunt section). The Kings Cross line, the Networkers can be unleashed south of Hitchen.

Split franchises? On the North side I'd say:
Create zone 9 on the GN and TL routes, and let LOROL run services terminating within that.
Put stoppers and semi-fast as far as Cambridge Peterborough and Bedford on Thameslink services.
Cambridge and Peterborough Expresses (including Kings Lynn services) give to a new "East Coast local" franchise responsible for running fast "local" services along the whole of the ECML (though not through running).

 

[asylumxl]

is it just me or are the 319 failures going up?

 

[Edvid]

If they are then I haven't noticed.

By the way, I heard recently that despite the Networker issue at City Thameslink, the Moorgate branch disconnection is taking place this weekend.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

is it just me or are the 319 failures going up?

They aren't as high as thing were in March - July time.

 

[Class377]

Affecting the TL route - massive delays at Cricklewood today so took the GN route down to London. The 317s are really old and need to be replaced soon IMO.
Networkers were nice, but can't help thinking that the TL line is nicer.

 

[jon0844]

The refreshed 319s are very bright and airy, compared to the 317s but did you go on a refreshed one, or the rather dank and horrid ones that were done by National Express?

I still think the 365s are the best. I guess the new TL trains are better again, but I really don't like the Southern colours on the inside. Had they used FCC colours and seat backs, I reckon they'd look loads nicer - but obviously that couldn't happen!

 

[Class377]

I guess mine wasn't refreshed - it still had a plain dark purple livery outside rather than the FCC "city lights" paintjob.

I used to hate the 319s but the refreshed ones are quite nice actually - so long as you don't sit right above the bogies

 

[asylumxl]

Well, there have been 2 319s in the last 2 days, and each time I've been on the relief train. Not that it bothers me really. Just an observation. Coupled with signal failures yesterday made for some reasonably large delays.

 

[jon0844]

I guess mine wasn't refreshed - it still had a plain dark purple livery outside rather than the FCC "city lights" paintjob.

I used to hate the 319s but the refreshed ones are quite nice actually - so long as you don't sit right above the bogies

The refreshed 317s are nicer, but they are nowhere near as bright inside. Wagn had replaced the warm coloured lighting with a much cooler and whiter light, but it seems that over the years it's all reverted back to the warm/yellow lighting, which doesn't really go with the creamy walls.

This is probably why the 319s are nicer as they have the blue walls and (it seems) brighter lights. Mind you, some people hate the similar brightness on the FGW HSTs so not everyone probably likes them. It certainly keeps me awake when I'm on the 0358 train from St Pancras to St Albans!

 

[thefab444]

Just reading the new FCC timetable, I'm very disappointed to see that Herne Hill will no longer receive any evening peak Brighton trains... :-x Not even the Three Bridges service calls there!

 

[Edvid]

Apparently that is a result of the South(east)ern timetable changes.

As for the Moorgate branch, well I hear its finally been disconnected (courtesy of gensheet) so I presume DC->AC changeovers are happening at City Thameslink now.

 

[Aictos]

Edvid:

Thanks for the tip about Gensheet, just googled it a sec ago and found it to be quite interesting, ta for mentioning it in your post.

 

[hawkeye]

As for the Moorgate branch, well I hear its finally been disconnected (courtesy of gensheet) so I presume DC->AC changeovers are happening at City Thameslink now.

I think 'disconnected' isn't the best description - the signal controlling the junction has been covered on Farringdon platform 3 and there are sleepers across the rails towards Moorgate. Must admit, I didn't notice anything different happening today in terms of AC/DC - still the familiar zap at Farringdon in both directions (was at City this evening and didn't hear any zaps).

Was strange to see 377's coming and going from Moorgate over the last week. They seemed to be doing a couple of the extra* trains starting at Farringdon.

(* - Extra used in the loosest possible sense given that half the timetable is still missing)

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Apparently that is a result of the South(east)ern timetable changes.

As for the Moorgate branch, well I hear its finally been disconnected (courtesy of gensheet) so I presume DC->AC changeovers are happening at City Thameslink now.

Nope, AC/DC change over is still happening at Farringdon. Will be asking why this week.

More bizzare 377 running again today. I myself managed to catch 377514 (with 377511 on the rear) running as 2V96 Loughborough Junction-Bedford all stations service. Rare jounery I was happy to ride on!

The new diagrams are out and will be updating shortly but somethings just caught my eye, 2x 377/5 will be running around on a saturday now north of the Core. Thats when this actual timetable gets to run (now more likely to be in Jan).

Minor fleet update for you all

22 377/5 are still forcast for the timetable chgange next week (meaning one has to be at bedfford by week's end).

377501 - Now due back to Selhurst 8/12 (tuesday) although in the same briefing date of 7/12 for the return of 501 to FCC!

377503 - Delayed due to lack of seats (!). The needed seats are due at Derby on 3/12.

377522 - Scheduled for complete comission w/c 30th November

377523 - Scheduled for complete comission w/c 30th November

New diagrams are out and I will be updating the current ones later this week in time for the weekend. However at the moment it doesn't look this this timetable will be run until the new year at the moment so its still the current catch one of the rather 377/5 runs.

 

[westcoaster]

Nope, AC/DC change over is still happening at Farringdon. Will be asking why this week.

More bizzare 377 running again today. I myself managed to catch 377514 (with 377511 on the rear) running as 2V96 Loughborough Junction-Bedford all stations service. Rare jounery I was happy to ride on!

Due to the driver shortage :roll: not all drivers have had the briefing about changing over faults, so as far as i am aware the ac/dc changeover will still happen at farringdon, only units not obtaining dc power will continue to city on ac then head north again.

the bizzare 377 running is for crowd busting, last week they were still using moorgate, and were turning around there, but they now have to go to herne hill turnback sidings.

Also the wires into and out of morgate are no more.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Due to the driver shortage :roll: not all drivers have had the briefing about changing over faults, so as far as i am aware the ac/dc changeover will still happen at farringdon, only units not obtaining dc power will continue to city on ac then head north again.

the bizzare 377 running is for crowd busting, last week they were still using moorgate, and were turning around there, but they now have to go to herne hill turnback sidings.

Also the wires into and out of morgate are no more.

Why go to City if you can't change over? Didn't think there was a cross over for AC south of Farringdon now? (was told the one between Smithfields and Farringdon was removed).

Ah I see, was off last week, if I'd know 377's were in Moorgate I'd have gone and got a picture. Were they running as all stations service last week as well then?

 

[westcoaster]

Why go to City if you can't change over? Didn't think there was a cross over for AC south of Farringdon now? (was told the one between Smithfields and Farringdon was removed).

Ah I see, was off last week, if I'd know 377's were in Moorgate I'd have gone and got a picture. Were they running as all stations service last week as well then?

if you are at city this week go to the southbound platform, at the far northend there is the 2 aspect signal that can take you across the crossing to the northbound platform, that signal now has a box next to it that can show D for "down snow hill" which will take you in the up direction towards farringdon(also i think it says "D for ac traction only"), the crossover is still there and now has overhead wires in place, hope that explains it.

Yeah the 377's were running the all station extras last week.
Plus the 1740? kentish town- three bridges, and it return working to bedford( should still be running this week, it did today.

 

[The Box Photter]

Nice to see that FCC considers it vital that passengers travelling the massive distance between St Pancras and West Hampstead have the benefit of new air-conditioned trains.

Luckily we long-distance commuters are still able to "enjoy" the ambiance of a crusty 319/3 all the way to Flitwick ....... and back.

I'd be really pleased if I could benefit from all the fantastic investment that FCC has put into new trains for the route paid for by the regular massive season ticket price rises.

Can anyone tell me when I'll get to ride on these computerised marvels on my way to and from work? All I ever seem to see is them going in the opposite direction, usually half-empty whilst I get a good view of the crotch of the passenger from Harpenden who is standing over me reading his FT and drinking his £5 cup of coffee tutting that he hasn't got a seat ..... again.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

if you are at city this week go to the southbound platform, at the far northend there is the 2 aspect signal that can take you across the crossing to the northbound platform, that signal now has a box next to it that can show D for "down snow hill" which will take you in the up direction towards farringdon(also i think it says "D for ac traction only"), the crossover is still there and now has overhead wires in place, hope that explains it.

Yeah the 377's were running the all station extras last week.
Plus the 1740? kentish town- three bridges, and it return working to bedford( should still be running this week, it did today.

I got a briefing today about the OHLE. Interesting to note the northbound OHLE is isolated until the crossover. I even got a map of the track in the area too.

As for the new diagrams I got to have a look at the weekend running which is strange to say the least. All saturday running is north of the core with all sunday south of the core. I don't know the arrangements for when the core is open.

Saturday running

5A81 2030 Cauldwell - Bedford - St Pancras
2G81 2144 St Pancras - Bedford
2A86 2312 Bedford - St Pancras
2G03 0033 St Pancras - Bedford
5G03 0156 Bedford - Cauldwell

Diagram 605 on the north with 606 on the south.

Sunday running

5B10 0727 Preston Park Sidings - Brighton
1B10 0744 Brighton - London Bridge*
1T15 0911 London Bridge - Brighton
1B22 1044 Brighton - London Bridge*
1T27 1211 London Bridge - Brighton
1B34 1344 Brighton - London Bridge*
1T39 1511 London Bridge - Brighton
1B46 1644 Brighton - London Bridge*
1T51 1811 London Bridge - Brighton
5B45 1938 Brighton - Lovers Walk
5B00 2055 Lovers Walk - Preston Park

All * service run via Quarry Line. Diagram 617 on the north end and 618 on the south end.

Dissapointing run on the north side for the saturdays but decent running for the units on the sunday.

Friday units on diagrams 611/612 make up the sunday diagrams 617/618 with then same number diagrams on the monday as well.