Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[Edvid]

Regarding 501 and 514, where's a 'facepalm' emoticon when you need one? Depending on 523's future delivery and how the 377 SDO/software mods are progressing perhaps we may still have enough units for the 99/109 fleet utilisation come mid-December.

I rode 509+519 from London to Luton the other day. Between StP and LTN (Parkway) we covered approx. 29 miles in 29 minutes 50 seconds, which for the record involved switching back to the slows at Radlett Jn, the usual St Albans/Harpenden calls and of course a 30mph PSR up (or rather down) to Kentish Town Jn. (We departed StP about 200 seconds behind schedule by the way).

The latest info on Oyster PAYG is good news.

 

[westcoaster]

Quick update


Rest of the fleet is all liveried and in service. As far as I know 377208/209/213 are still with FCC but unused due to driver shortages lately.

not quiet true im afraid, these units are not required for service as there are enough 377/5's in service atm ie all diagrams covered, and are being kept almost as a hot spare.

208 has been there nearly three weeks.

 

[Class377]

A 377/2 (I think 208?) was used on Thursday (29 October) as the 10:38 STP service southbound, instead of an 8-car 377. Cue lots of shoving and no breathing space.

Otherwise, is all this talk of only 4 drivers turning up tomorrow true? If they work incredibly hard we still could get a slow service and a fast service every 90 minutes?

 

[asylumxl]

Otherwise, is all this talk of only 4 drivers turning up tomorrow true? If they work incredibly hard we still could get a slow service and a fast service every 90 minutes?

If it's true, it's a good way to lose public support IMO.

I don't know how I feel about the situation. As a regular user of the Thameslink route, I do understand the situation and where they are coming from, and throughout the week have traveled to and from London with little problem.

But I do think there is a point where it just becomes ludicrous, and if I'm honest, frankly insulting to the passengers. 4 drivers for tomorrow would be one of those points. We've got to remember that most of the stations outside London are on no other lines. Luton and Bedford are fortunate to have EMT services stopping there, but I feel sorry for passengers for Elstree & Borehamwood/Radlett, St Albans, Harpenden, Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick.

 

[jon0844]

And drivers aren't going to get much sympathy now FCC can go to the press and make a statement that it offered a 3% pay rise next year. Quite aside from the other factors, the point is, drivers are going to look bad/greedy now.

I would have expected that a 3% offer in the current climate would be considered pretty good, given the circumstances. GN drivers are separate from TL aren't they, so why are they moaning about the fact TL drivers didn't get massive bonuses for doing all the training on the 377s?

 

[73110]

Otherwise, is all this talk of only 4 drivers turning up tomorrow true?

As far as I am aware most, if not all of Brighton will be in tomorrow. I thought it was only 4 GN drivers turning in that turned to none as they have buses on now.

GN drivers are separate from TL aren't they, so why are they moaning about the fact TL drivers didn't get massive bonuses for doing all the training on the 377s?

I don't understand this. They are not moaning are they?

And drivers aren't going to get much sympathy now FCC can go to the press and make a statement that it offered a 3% pay rise next year. Quite aside from the other factors, the point is, drivers are going to look bad/greedy now.

Sympathy from the public. What do you mean by this, are they not going to buy tickets en-mass one day a week until it's sorted or what.

**Edited to keep everyone happy**

Clearly the management don't care or they would have had this sorted in April. Can you tell me (and everyone else) exactly what "Sympathy" or "Support" the public can give to the drivers.........?

To be honest after seeing the complete deal with the extras added on it's not a bad deal at all except for the 0% for this year. That 0% is the insult, the rest of it is ok, just they have not acknowledged all the effort put in by everyone this last year, that is where the main gripe is I understand.

If (and I can say this from what others have said) they offered maybe one and a half/two percent for this year and the 3% for next year then I personally think that would have gone through, no problem.

 

[jon0844]

I don't understand this. They are not moaning are they?

GN is running NO services tomorrow. If these drivers were upset about only being offered 3%, fine, but it can't surely be about having been let down by management for their extra work on training when that's the drivers on the TL side??

Something doesn't quite add up.

Still, it's nice to hear your opinion about the drivers not giving a **** about the passengers. If I was thinking FCC scored a massive PR fail with the way they handled things, then your message must be pretty equal to that.

 

[73110]

Couldn't agree more.

Anyhow, the GN drivers are having their own problems over their own pay deal, I can't see where/why they are bringing the TL drivers into all this.

 

[Minstral25]

The Drivers are relatively well paid for a job that I have to say is not the easiest in the world but has its benefits - like ability to get paid extra for working rest days when you are a bit short.

At this time of austerity due to the credit crunch they will get little sympathy from their passengers who are facing redundancies and severe pay cuts. They will come across as greedy whatever they do.

I can see from drivers on here that their employer does not seem to be treating them with the respect they deserve, but surely their must be better ways to hit FCC rather than the passengers.

Not running trains will only create verbal and physical abuse to platform staff as frustrated passengers many with huge stress and problems of their own get angry because of the lack of trains or beuing sardined into the few trains running. Commuting is pretty stressful anyway without these issues.

On top of that the drivers pay will effectively be cut as they stop working rest days they used to be paid for.

This action is a lose/lose situation for everyone except FCC and I hope that the unions can find a better way of hurting FCC for their behaviour towards the drivers - strikes and no rest day working really are not effective in the current climate.

 

[73110]

like ability to get paid extra for working rest days when you are a bit short.

There are a lot of drivers who do not work these rest days or even Sundays. They don't want to, they would rather spend time away from the job for whatever reasons. There are only about 40% if that of drivers who regularly work overtime. The extra cash is only there for those who want to work, so why tar the others with the same brush, these that don't work overtime.

At this time of austerity due to the credit crunch they will get little sympathy from their passengers who are facing redundancies and severe pay cuts. They will come across as greedy whatever they do.

As stated on the other thread and due to the PM's, some threatening, because of what I wrote I will keep it short, but do you really believe the drivers care what the public think. I know they don't, why should they care what they think. Also, what is this "Sympathy", again can you tell me why and how the public can offer sympathy, how can they show Sympathy?

On top of that the drivers pay will effectively be cut as they stop working rest days they used to be paid for.

You are assuming that ALL drivers work overtime, well I can tell you it is not that many so how can that be a pay cut to those who don't work overtime?

Not running trains will only create verbal and physical abuse to platform staff as frustrated passengers many with huge stress and problems of their own get angry because of the lack of trains or beuing sardined into the few trains running. Commuting is pretty stressful anyway without these issues.

Individual passengers I can't comment for but if someone kicks off because of a train being delayed or canceled then its up to them to go and get treatment from a doctor and avoid public transport until it is sorted, don't you think.

This action is a lose/lose situation for everyone except FCC and I hope that the unions can find a better way of hurting FCC for their behaviour towards the drivers - strikes and no rest day working really are not effective in the current climate.

Maybe not but all of this could have been avoided if this was sorted out last April. Again, the management kept putting it off for various excuses knowing full well that if this came about back then the training program would have been severely affected in both the 377 driver training and the route learning to Sevenoaks. They kept putting this off until now when virtually all the training is done, there are only a handful of drivers not trained up yet on 377's but these will be soon. So, going on this, I hope you understand why the drivers feel this way. They don't want all this hassle everyday as much as everyone else so if the passengers have issues then they must look squarely at FCC management and start getting on at them via email, letters and the various meet the manager session they have. Personally I hope it is sorted out quickly for the sake of the front line staff who are bearing the brunt of all this mess.

 

[jon0844]

Passengers can, and would, have shown sympathy and not moaned if they'd actually known what the situation was. They could put up with the bother (for a bit) and, as 7/7 proved, people do actually cope quite well with problems/delays/stress when they know the reasonings behind something. I bet nobody complained about the lack of buses and the large queues at Finsbury Park for shuttle services back in 2005.

FCC deliberately kept the truth back, and issued a release saying it was down to staff illness and ongoing training.

I have supported the drivers by highlighting their cause elsewhere and explaining to angry passengers the real reason behind their cancelled train, which has also resulted in less complaints to front-line staff - but I'm just one man and can't do that much. The mainstream media weren't bothered at all, and the BBC simply trusted FCCs side of the story.

I do wonder why you hold passengers in contempt and suggest they get treatment for being upset when their trains are cancelled (most aren't abusing or assaulting the staff, but venting their anger and that's to be expected by front-line staff). I presume that you think it's okay to wait an extra hour or two when a couple of services in succession are cancelled, or the train that does run is a 4-car train that can't fit everyone on? And when buses are put on at night and it takes (as happened to me personally) 3 hours to get home - to Hatfield - via St Pancras, St Albans, a bus and then a long walk. All the front-line staff I've spoken to, at various stations, are pretty sympathetic towards the passengers and their inability to do anything except pass on the bad news when (if) they get it.

I guess if we all go away, it will solve the problem - less need for trains - and will punish FCC in falling profits too. A win-win situation? I think not.

Oh wait, but commuters can't just protest by walking away - the car isn't a viable alternative (unless people car share) so we're totally stuck. Lovely!

 

[73110]

I do wonder why you hold passengers in contempt and suggest they get treatment for being upset

This was a direct reply to the higlighted BOLD bit of text in the quote above that reply. It was not a general assumption.

I have supported the drivers by highlighting their cause elsewhere and explaining to angry passengers the real reason behind their cancelled train, which has also resulted in less complaints to front-line staff - but I'm just one man and can't do that much.

Thank you for doing that.

 

[jon0844]

I am siding with drivers, but that will only last so long. My support started to wane a little when I heard they were offered 3% which is pretty high given the fact that there's DEflation at the moment.

Of course, I don't know the terms & conditions associated, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt - for now. But, the truth is going to come out sooner or later.

I suspect that it's an element of arrogance on the part of FCC and greed on the part of drivers. I am willing to wait and see, but if this is still happening come January, then the gloves are off.

 

[royaloak]

They were offered 3% for NEXT YEAR, they were offered 0% this year and 6 months late!

 

[jon0844]

I know it was next year. This year inflation is negative, so they're lucky not to be offered a pay CUT!

I guess it doesn't really matter if the pay offer is offered today or the last day of March, as any pay offer is presumably backdated right to April 2009. If it wasn't, THEN I can see the fuss!

I would now like to know the T&Cs attached to the 3% offer, as it seems pretty good unless there are some nasty clauses/caveats.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I know what I mean Westcoaster, units are there as a just in case. Tho increasingly un-needed. You have to wonder why they don't go back no or do Enginerring fear another 377 fleet withdrawal?

Also note training is no-where near finished. The training was completed just in time to run the KO0 D1C timetable and is still on going so that the original KO0 timetable can begin in December but the full training is not due to be completed until August 2010. So there's on going training for awhile yet.

You have to also note that First offer the Great Western drivers 4% this year and so the FCC drivers asked why they have to wait a year for a lower pay offer. Both franchises are under Cap & Collar support.

Platform staff are also having pay talk athough its being handled differently but with silmar results. Although platform staff are currently still doing overtime, recent events means platform staff can be semi replaced (managers are now trained up to a basic standard) at nesscary stations so they haven't got much ability to affect as the drivers do.

Customers generally are either have a go no matter what (the kind that swear at you if a train is displayed at a minute late or swear at you when your backs turned and when you face them they run off sheeplishy. Ive had both reactions lately) or the kind that go oh thats whats happening thanks for telling me. Generally the passengers in the Core are actually supportive of the drivers and wonder why overtime is needed to run a standard service.

Anyway bringing the thread back to subject

Units News

377501 - at Derby for "outstanding interior work".

377503 - at Derby as a xmas tree

377504 - due to follow 501 when "the final 377/5 unit is delivered to Bedford (forecast for 25th November)". Make what you want of the final 377/5 unit, but the 16th is only a week away*.

377514 - currently having a new 25kv transformer fitted at Selhurst

377515 - Made its passenger debut this morning. Cheers for the update John.

377522 - On comission runs at Selhurst

377523 - Yet to leave Derby

*this could mean the 20th Unit which is needed for the new December timetable as the final 3 are spares. FCC current has 18 377/5 (377502/504/ 505/506/507/ 508/509/510/ 511/512/513/ 515/516/517/ 518/519/520/ 521) and three 377/2 (377208/209/ 213) until the end of November. Its likely that 514/522 will arrive before December's timetable change allowing 20 377/5 to be in service. That would mean 523 releases 504.

Station News

Blackfriars - Work is progressing well on the bridge silde for xmas. The run through period (when the station is closed but trains run through non-stop) is now likely to be either October or December 2010. NR has informed the Corporation Of London that the run though period is now likely to be 8 weeks compared to the 4 weeks planed.

City Thameslink - OHLE testing for short circuiting happened on saturday. Work on bonding and earthing is going well at the moment.

Farringdon - Good progress is being made on the pilling work for the Tunmill concourse.

 

[73110]

Good post and thanks for keeping us updated.

Can I just add;

Also note training is no-where near finished. The training was completed just in time to run the KO0 D1C timetable and is still on going so that the original KO0 timetable can begin in December but the full training is not due to be completed until August 2010. So there's on going training for awhile yet.

This is true but instead of 8 drivers per day off training there are only three. (at this moment) I don't think we will see the training where 8 drivers are taken off at once. Three at a time seems the norm at the moment. Lots more drivers to do, mainly Blackfriars drivers I believe.

Cheers

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Good post and thanks for keeping us updated.

Can I just add;

This is true but instead of 8 drivers per day off training there are only three. (at this moment) I don't think we will see the training where 8 drivers are taken off at once. Three at a time seems the norm at the moment. Lots more drivers to do, mainly Blackfriars drivers I believe.

Cheers

I was told by Blackfriars drivers months ago its two off at any one time from each depot. It may now be a total of 3 drivers but it was six in total. One thing is tho if they are pulling off drivers for this the training is going to continue to 2011 at this rate. Blackfriars drivers were reduced in the KO0 timetable to Sevenoaks and Loop services, leaving large numbers of them to be 377 trained. Interesting originally it was the Brighton drivers with a few Bedford who were trained up on the 377s.

On another note I forgot to add one 377 jounery seems to be starting at Brighton from next months as Ive been informed there is a Brighton drivers turn that invloves setting up a 377 for the first time. Im taking this also means a later 377 jounery south each night. Answers will be fothcoming in around 4 weeks time.

 

[73110]

All Brighton drivers are trained up on 377's now.

Your right, there will be a 377 going to Preston Park sidings at the end of service from December. The driver going to get it will have to prep it before it comes out.

A lot of drivers recently have been putting in slips to get refreshed on them as all the Brighton men do is drive them and do one attachment up at Bedford. No prep or disposal so many have been putting in for a refresher.

 

[Edvid]

Some Thameslink-related material has been published on the House of Commons Hansard pages (Columns 62W and 63W):

Patrick Hall: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport when he expects the first new train to enter into passenger service under the Thameslink rolling stock project. [299200]

Chris Mole: The first new Thameslink train is expected to enter passenger service by late 2013.

Patrick Hall: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what his most recent assessment is of the total cost of the Thameslink programme. [299201]

Chris Mole: The Department for Transport is continually reviewing the costs associated with the Thameslink Programme. The current forecast of the total costs for the programme is around £5.5 billion to £6 billion.

Patrick Hall: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what his most recent estimate is of the level of passenger overcrowding on the Thameslink route of the First Capital Connect franchise. [299206]

Chris Mole: Based on data the Department for Transport collected in autumn 2008, levels of passenger overcrowding on the Thameslink route of the First Capital Connect Franchise during the peak periods are shown in the following table.

First Capital Connect Thameslink

Peak (AM) 2008 PiXC 5.7%

Peak (PM) 2008 PiXC 1.7%

Overall 2008 PiXC 3.8%

Patrick Hall: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what the most recent performance statistics are for the Thameslink route of the First Capital Connect franchise. [299207]

Chris Mole: The official industry performance data provided by Network Rail is for First Capital Connect as a whole. This information is not broken down by route or service group and therefore, we are unable to provide the statistics requested.

Patrick Hall: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent assessment he has made of the proposed changes to Blackfriars station under the Thameslink programme. [299208]

Chris Mole: Officials from the Department for Transport are closely monitoring all works covered by the Thameslink Programme, including works at Blackfriars Station.

Work is now well under way at Blackfriars station, with a number of new temporary measures that are designed to aid the flow of passengers during the construction works.

On completion the station will span the River Thames, with a new entrance on the south bank. In addition, the London Underground station will be completely modernised with an enhanced interchange between the National Rail and London Underground stations.

Patrick Hall: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent discussions he has had with representatives of Bedford borough council on changes to Bedford station under the Thameslink programme. [299209]

Chris Mole: The only recent meeting that Department for Transport officials have had with representatives of Bedford borough council has been regarding the location of stabling facilities near to Bedford station. This meeting, convened by Network Rail, took place during spring 2009.

Patrick Hall: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many construction jobs the Thameslink programme has created. [299197]

Chris Mole: Network Rail estimate that there are approximately 1,500 people currently working full-time in construction related jobs on the Thameslink Programme, with approximately a further 500 to 700 working on a part-time basis.

Patrick Hall: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many additional train drivers will be employed in order to operate the full Thameslink service on completion of the Thameslink programme. [299198]

Chris Mole: The Department for Transport estimates that about an additional 80 drivers will be required to operate the enhanced Thameslink service.

The exact number of additional drivers will be determined by the final train service pattern and the associated detailed operational plan and timetabling work which will be undertaken in due course.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
377523 has left Litchurch Lane tonight.

 

[73110]

Ok, who on here is Patrick Hall??????

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Latest update

377208/209/213 returned to Southern as 5Z51. Ruuning 41 late through Blackfriars.

377514 went through City at 1322 as 5Z22 on route to Cauldwell.

FCC are not running any 377's today expect the three jointly run with Southeastern.

FCC now have 377502/504/505/ 506/507/508/ 509/510/511/ 512/513/514/ 515/516/517/ 518/519/520/ 521.

Southern have 377522/523

Bombarbier have 377501/503

FCC have have 19 out of the 20 units they need for Decembers timetabled service if it starts on December 12th. 377523 is likely to release 377504 so it can go back to Derby for repairs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
None fleet update on the TLP, talking of cuts are incraesing with even an offical link on the internal FCC website over a proposed £750m cuts to balance the budget to the original £5.5bn as the project is over budget already.

Links

http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport...park-thameslink-cutback-fears/5204411.article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/nov/14/thameslink-crossrail-upgrades-cutbacks

Nothing offically said yet but rumbling go on. Doubt much will be said until after the drivers issue dies down.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another update for those interested

Rolling stock

When the new timetable hits on 13th December FCC expect to have 22 377/5 available. This leaves 377501/503/504 not with FCC.

377501 - is expected back at Cauldwell on 02/12/09

377514 - arrived at Bedford 13/11

377522 - Southern install a new rransformer on the unit on the 12/11. Testing should be begin w/c 16/11. 522 is expected at Bedford next week.

377523 - nothing said but unit is at Selhurst with 522

377503 - "delivery of final 377 (503) 26/11/09"

Testing completed on the metal shield for the OHLE interferrance in the Core. Fitting to begin shortly.

Other news

Crawley Council have given planning approval for Three Bridges depot.

Favored Plan for London Bridge should done next month.

Network has completed the first package works for the closurse of Moorgate. This conists of a 'patio' to allow drivers to change ends at Clerkenwell Crossovers.

Final scheme plan & station change for Leagrave has been issued.

FCC has reviewed potentinal track slew at St Albans to minimised their impact.

West Hampstead platform extensions open 31/01/10.

 

[DjU]

377522 - Southern install a new rransformer on the unit on the 12/11. Testing should be begin w/c 16/11. 522 is expected at Bedford next week.

Do you know if this is a separate transformer issue to the one 514 had or is the same one?

IE - did they nick 522s to get 514 out the door or has 522 had its own failure!

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Do you know if this is a separate transformer issue to the one 514 had or is the same one?

IE - did they nick 522s to get 514 out the door or has 522 had its own failure!

Its a seperate fault as 522 was doing testing alone when 514 was having its transformer replaced. And it stopped a little while after 514 was back up and running. Dont hold much hope that 523 and 503 will be trouble free. Just the latest problems in a long string of them.

 

[RobShipway]

Has anything been decided about the new Thameslink trains that will be introduced in 2012?

 

[asylumxl]

Has anything been decided about the new Thameslink trains that will be introduced in 2012?

Nope. Not heard anything (as a consumer) myself.

I do think it's absolutely idiotic the government rejected Alstom's bid. Apparently articulation isn't a proven concept in the UK. Have they ever bothered to look at other countries, or hell, even the Eurostar?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Has anything been decided about the new Thameslink trains that will be introduced in 2012?

They aren't being introduced now until Summer 2013 on the Bedford-Brighton route. The first one should be seen in daytime sometime after the Olympics now.

The bid announcement has gone back to Autum 2010 so a good 9 months before we find out whose won.

Nope. Not heard anything (as a consumer) myself.

I do think it's absolutely idiotic the government rejected Alstom's bid. Apparently articulation isn't a proven concept in the UK. Have they ever bothered to look at other countries, or hell, even the Eurostar?

Losing Alstom means that your likely to end up with Siemens unless Bombardier go really low with the price.

Shame as I prefer the Alstom design. The door arrangement with shorter bodies was a much better idea.

Generally the whole NXEMU thing has gone very quiet lately. And offically the announcement of the preferred bidder is expected next month.

**UPDATE 24/11**

TLP bits - Fleet

377501 - Due back at Bedford 2/12

377503 - Due at Selhurst thurs 26/11

377504 - Going to Derby once 503 hits Bedford (which shud be late December or possible January depending on xmas measing up comissining runs)

377522 - Comissioning runs at Selhurst, due at Bedford 25/11

377523 - Comissining runs at Selhurst, due at Bedford 25/11

Quoting "377 deliveries are on target to for the December timetable change".

Stations

Blackfriars - flow modelling on the station after the track slew in January 2011 currently being done. Under review are emergency access, platform widths etc. Work is also progress on the contingency plans for the installing of the passenger footbridge onto platform 4 on the weekend of 5/6 December. This bridge is currently the concrete path to the station and is being replaced with a bridge before the bridge works during the xmas shut down.

General

Working with the DfT and NR on defining the depot and stabling strategy for the new trains.

Borough Market roof is partially removed in preparation for the new viaduct.

 

[jon0844]

If Bombardier get the contract, there better be a clause that fines them heavily for being late.

Mind you, that will only make them rush the trains out with loads of faults. I guess the ideal solution is to ensure the contract goes to a company that could actually build them on time without cutting corners. Sadly, tenders can't really factor that in when it's usually down to lowest price wins.

I can understand the development time on something like the Airbus A380, or the next space shuttle, or a satellite going to Mars... but we're talking about building a train. It's not quite in the same league, so it should be easy to make something that's incredibly reliable.

 

[Pumbaa]

I guess the ideal solution is to ensure the contract goes to a company that could actually build them on time without cutting corners.

That will be Siemens then - 350/2 delivery finished early, lowest casualty rate for any new unit to enter traffic as well! And the 450/444 delivery was smooth compared to Electrostar. And we'll just ignore Alstom...

 

[Aictos]

That will be Siemens then - 350/2 delivery finished early, lowest casualty rate for any new unit to enter traffic as well! And the 450/444 delivery was smooth compared to Electrostar. And we'll just ignore Alstom...

Go Siemens,

Only thing against them is the fact that their stock is so damn heavy but apart from that, they seem to be pretty reliable.

One thing I've always wondered is if 350s got cleared for the Core section of the Thameslink route, would they have the same problems with switching from AC to DC at Farringdon and also the same problems with the doors at St Pancras?