December 2018 timetable changes (some now confirmed scrapped) - contagion spreads

[_toommm_]

Is it me being blind, or do the new TPE splits between Piccadilly and Leeds just not connect at all at Huddersfield? If I wanted to go Stalyvegas to a local stop past Huddersfield I'd have to wait a while..

 

[Bungle965]

Is it me being blind, or do the new TPE splits between Piccadilly and Leeds just not connect at all at Huddersfield? If I wanted to go Stalyvegas to a local stop past Huddersfield I'd have to wait a while..

Correct, they do not connect.
Sam

 

[Mathew S]

Correct, they do not connect.
Sam

There's an interesting symbol against the Leeds-Huddersfield services in the printed timetables though which, according to the key, denotes: "For all or part of this timetable period, this service may be advertised as operated by Northern"

Link: https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/~/media...-2018/mini-b-09dec2018-to-18may2019.pdf?la=en

 

[Bungle965]

There's an interesting symbol against the Leeds-Huddersfield services in the printed timetables though which, according to the key, denotes: "For all or part of this timetable period, this service may be advertised as operated by Northern"

Link: https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/~/media...-2018/mini-b-09dec2018-to-18may2019.pdf?la=en

Yes, it is a Northern 170 which is supposed to operate the service with Northern crew also.
Sam

 

[Killingworth]

Yes, it is a Northern 170 which is supposed to operate the service with Northern crew also.
Sam

It all gets very confusing when TPE have loaned Northern 2 185s for the Barrow service!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yes, it is a Northern 170 which is supposed to operate the service with Northern crew also.
Sam

There will be 1 x 170 and 1 x 185 on the Leeds - Huddersfield circuit. The 170 will have a Northern driver and TPE Guard and will be a TPE service for operational and retail purposes.

 

[northwichcat]

You want a bet? Ever heard of the NRRUG?

I think that combination of letters is wrong.

The decision of which trains are used on which routes is down to the operator and Network Rail. Many RUGs would like better rolling stock on their lines but unless there's a specific reason why a particular type of rolling stock can't be used they aren't guaranteed to get better rolling stock whatever they do. Mid Cheshire was supposed to get the 156s released by Chat Moss electrification but that changed when Chiltern nabbed the TPE 170s and all the local RUG could do is tell people they will no longer be getting the 156s.

 

[Bungle965]

It all gets very confusing when TPE have loaned Northern 2 185s for the Barrow service!

It's sits strange with me and no doubt others that Northern have a crew available to loan out to TPE on a regular basis.

There will be 1 x 170 and 1 x 185 on the Leeds - Huddersfield circuit. The 170 will have a Northern driver and TPE Guard and will be a TPE service for operational and retail purposes.

Thankfully it's not the other way around as TPE would never be able to find drivers to crew it!
Sam

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think that combination of letters is wrong.

It's still the NRRUG, just Arriva crossed out the first R.

 

[northwichcat]

It's still the NRRUG, just Arriva crossed out the first R.

RUG suggests you are talking about a Rail User's Group. NCRUG would be the one representing Chester-Warrington-Manchester. If you are talking about a Route Utilisation Strategy then it should be RUS. NRRUG is just a load of nonsense.

 

[LOL The Irony]

RUG suggests you are talking about a Rail User's Group. NCRUG would be the one representing Chester-Warrington-Manchester. If you are talking about a Route Utilisation Strategy then it should be RUS. NRRUG is just a load of nonsense.

Northern Rail Random Unit Generator

 

[Mathew S]

Northern Rail Random Unit Generator

Then why not just say that in the first place rather than confusing everyone

 

[Jamesrob637]

I think that combination of letters is wrong.

The decision of which trains are used on which routes is down to the operator and Network Rail. Many RUGs would like better rolling stock on their lines but unless there's a specific reason why a particular type of rolling stock can't be used they aren't guaranteed to get better rolling stock whatever they do. Mid Cheshire was supposed to get the 156s released by Chat Moss electrification but that changed when Chiltern nabbed the TPE 170s and all the local RUG could do is tell people they will no longer be getting the 156s.

Your line does see a few more 156s than before but I still wouldn't describe that as being guaranteed one by a long shot. Maybe a couple more will come on stream as the units get displaced/moved in 2019

 

[northwichcat]

Your line does see a few more 156s than before but I still wouldn't describe that as being guaranteed one by a long shot. Maybe a couple more will come on stream as the units get displaced/moved in 2019

Really? Pre-May 2018 there was a booked 156 diagram Mon-Fri, now I'm pretty sure everything Mon-Fri is either booked as 142 or 150. There was also a 150+156 diagram on Sat which I think became a single 150 diagram at May 2018 but it's hard to tell given there haven't been any trains on Saturdays for months.

(Old) Northern Rail's original plan was for all the units which start the day in Chester to be 156s from Allerton post-Chat Moss electrification with the ECS' to Chester from Newton Heath and Longsight eliminated, which would have meant around 75% of the standard pattern services were booked as 156s.

 

[Greybeard33]

Really? Pre-May 2018 there was a booked 156 diagram Mon-Fri, now I'm pretty sure everything Mon-Fri is either booked as 142 or 150.

The Random Unit Generator does still throw out a 156 from time to time, though. I was on one a few weeks ago - IIRC it was working the 0941 Picc to Chester.

 

[Deerfold]

Is it me being blind, or do the new TPE splits between Piccadilly and Leeds just not connect at all at Huddersfield? If I wanted to go Stalyvegas to a local stop past Huddersfield I'd have to wait a while..

Indeed. It's gone back to how it was just before TPE took over (though back in the 90s when there were fewer conflicting movements, it was a through service).

 

[Jamesrob637]

Really? Pre-May 2018 there was a booked 156 diagram Mon-Fri, now I'm pretty sure everything Mon-Fri is either booked as 142 or 150. There was also a 150+156 diagram on Sat which I think became a single 150 diagram at May 2018 but it's hard to tell given there haven't been any trains on Saturdays for months.

(Old) Northern Rail's original plan was for all the units which start the day in Chester to be 156s from Allerton post-Chat Moss electrification with the ECS' to Chester from Newton Heath and Longsight eliminated, which would have meant around 75% of the standard pattern services were booked as 156s.

Don't disbelieve you - just from what I see going over Stockport Viaduct from my desk!

 

[northwichcat]

The Random Unit Generator does still throw out a 156 from time to time, though. I was on one a few weeks ago - IIRC it was working the 0941 Picc to Chester.

I sometimes catch that service and can confirm on 20th Nov it was a 156 but I think that's the first time I've seen or caught it since May when it hasn't been a 142.

 

[northwichcat]

Don't disbelieve you - just from what I see going over Stockport Viaduct from my desk!

Given southbound the Piccadilly-Chester and Wigan-Alderley Edge are timed 1 minute apart and northbound a Buxton-Piccadilly is 2 minutes behind a Chester-Piccadilly I think it would be hard to know which units are on which services just from occasional glances from your desk.

 

[Greybeard33]

I sometimes catch that service and can confirm on 20th Nov it was a 156 but I think that's the first time I've seen or caught it since May when it hasn't been a 142.

After checking, the 156 working I was remembering was in fact the 1041 Piccadilly to Chester on Friday 9th Nov.

 

[Philip]

Your line does see a few more 156s than before but I still wouldn't describe that as being guaranteed one by a long shot. Maybe a couple more will come on stream as the units get displaced/moved in 2019

I think the 156s would be wasted slightly if used for most services on the Mid-Cheshire line. It deserves more than the 142s it regularly gets, but it's an obvious 150 route because there are many stops so the door arrangement will help with dwell times. It isn't a long distance service because Manchester-Chester passengers will take the route via Warrington.

The 156s should be focused more for strengthening 158 diagrams and perhaps the Manchester-Sheffield semi-fasts.

 

[Killingworth]

The 156s should be focused more for strengthening 158 diagrams and perhaps the Manchester-Sheffield semi-fasts.

They do sometimes come over to Sheffield on the stopping service. The 3rd semi-fast path may go to Northern, or the existing East Midlands may be remapped to them, but there's no word on that as yet, and may not be for another 3 or more years.

The Hope Valley stopping service features back packers, bikes and heavy luggage in equal measure, not ideal for a 156. In truth rugged Pacers have coped well with the outdoor types encountered but it's 150s now taking over!

 

[northwichcat]

I think the 156s would be wasted slightly if used for most services on the Mid-Cheshire line. It deserves more than the 142s it regularly gets, but it's an obvious 150 route because there are many stops so the door arrangement will help with dwell times. It isn't a long distance service because Manchester-Chester passengers will take the route via Warrington.

The 156s should be focused more for strengthening 158 diagrams and perhaps the Manchester-Sheffield semi-fasts.

Northern have too many units with end doors to only use them on semi-fast long distance services. 156s actually seem to perform better than 142s on the Mid Cheshire especially between Navigation Rd and Stockport in leaf fall season. Presumably the 142 flat wheels is why some 156s have popped up recently.

There is also the question of whether Mid-Cheshire and Buxton should have 90/100mph trains if pathing 2x Mid Cheshire and 2x Buxton services between Stockport and Manchester isn't going to work using 75mph paths.

 

[Greybeard33]

There is also the question of whether Mid-Cheshire and Buxton should have 90/100mph trains if pathing 2x Mid Cheshire and 2x Buxton services between Stockport and Manchester isn't going to work using 75mph paths.

A TfW S Wales service with a Fast line route is timed at 7.5 minutes from Piccadilly to Stockport, pathed for a 100mph 158. A Northern Chester service, also with a Fast line route, is timed at 8 minutes (plus any pathing allowances), pathed for a 75mph 15x.

It seems unlikely that a 30 second saving would be sufficient to allow an extra path to be slotted into the timetable.

 

[Philip]

They do sometimes come over to Sheffield on the stopping service. The 3rd semi-fast path may go to Northern, or the existing East Midlands may be remapped to them, but there's no word on that as yet, and may not be for another 3 or more years.

The Hope Valley stopping service features back packers, bikes and heavy luggage in equal measure, not ideal for a 156. In truth rugged Pacers have coped well with the outdoor types encountered but it's 150s now taking over!

I suppose the proposed 3rd path would be a good 195 route if Northern operate it, assuming either 175s or 185s join Northern in the next few years to provide extra capacity for other routes.

Northern have too many units with end doors to only use them on semi-fast long distance services. 156s actually seem to perform better than 142s on the Mid Cheshire especially between Navigation Rd and Stockport in leaf fall season. Presumably the 142 flat wheels is why some 156s have popped up recently.

There is also the question of whether Mid-Cheshire and Buxton should have 90/100mph trains if pathing 2x Mid Cheshire and 2x Buxton services between Stockport and Manchester isn't going to work using 75mph paths.

If that ends up being a problem, wouldn't it make more sense to cut one of the two hourly services back to Stockport (on either route)? Frequent connecting trains between Manchester and Stockport and an easy platform change at Stockport. That seems to make more sense than putting 195s on local stopping routes.

 

[northwichcat]

If that ends up being a problem, wouldn't it make more sense to cut one of the two hourly services back to Stockport (on either route)? Frequent connecting trains between Manchester and Stockport and an easy platform change at Stockport. That seems to make more sense than putting 195s on local stopping routes.

Off-peak it's been said that isn't possible due to not being able to fit services starting/terminating at Stockport around freight.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Off-peak it's been said that isn't possible due to not being able to fit services starting/terminating at Stockport around freight.

Because someone at Northern decided they knew best and screwed up.

 

[northwichcat]

A TfW S Wales service with a Fast line route is timed at 7.5 minutes from Piccadilly to Stockport, pathed for a 100mph 158. A Northern Chester service, also with a Fast line route, is timed at 8 minutes (plus any pathing allowances), pathed for a 75mph 15x.

It seems unlikely that a 30 second saving would be sufficient to allow an extra path to be slotted into the timetable.

Standard pattern Chester services are 9 minutes southbound (I'm ignoring northbound times because I'm aware of padding being added in to ensure trains arrive at their destination 'on time') The only Chester services I can see doing 8 minutes are some off-pattern early/late services when the lines are quieter. A minute or so by itself might not make a difference but if we're talking about 2 x Mid-Cheshire, 2 x Buxton, as well as Alderley Edge services switching from 75mph 15xs to 100mph 769s surely that should collectively make a difference.

 

[Greybeard33]

If that ends up being a problem, wouldn't it make more sense to cut one of the two hourly services back to Stockport (on either route)? Frequent connecting trains between Manchester and Stockport and an easy platform change at Stockport. That seems to make more sense than putting 195s on local stopping routes.

The signalling at Stockport does not permit a terminating northbound service to reverse back to the south. An ECS move to the north is required, either reversing on the viaduct (which blocks both Fast lines for several minutes) or turning on to the Denton line at Heaton Norris Junction, then reversing at Ash Bridge Junction (a lengthy process - see e.g. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69908/2018/12/05/advanced). Either way, a Mid-Cheshire line service that turns back at Stockport has to cross the Fasts twice, making it difficult to path.

Presumably that is why, when the second hourly off-peak service is introduced in May, it will be cut back to Altrincham rather than continuing to Stockport. That also avoids the performance risk of traversing the the two single line sections at Navigation Road and Cheadle Village.

In partial mitigation, the western end of the service will be extended to Chester, instead of terminating at Greenbank as previously proposed.

 

[northwichcat]

The signalling at Stockport does not permit a terminating northbound service to reverse back to the south. An ECS move to the north is required, either reversing on the viaduct (which blocks both Fast lines for several minutes) or turning on to the Denton line at Heaton Norris Junction, then reversing at Ash Bridge Junction (a lengthy process - see e.g. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69908/2018/12/05/advanced). Either way, a Mid-Cheshire line service that turns back at Stockport has to cross the Fasts twice, making it difficult to path.

Can't a northbound service go to platform 1? I realise for Mid-Cheshire that would wouldn't be a solution but it could allow a unit to run back and forth on a Hazel Grove to Stockport shuttle.

The other option could be to revisit the idea of reintroducing hourly services at Denton and Reddish North by running a 'South Manchester' service through to Victoria.