December 2018 timetable changes (some now confirmed scrapped) - contagion spreads

[LOL The Irony]

In partial mitigation, the western end of the service will be extended to Chester, instead of terminating at Greenbank as previously proposed.

Most trains are very quiet past Northwich, with most journeys being to Stockport, making the whole 2nd train exercise utterly pointless.

 

[northwichcat]

Most trains are very quiet past Northwich, with most journeys being to Stockport, making the whole 2nd train exercise utterly pointless.

Indeed. On weekdays in school term time there's not a lot of demand for off-peak services to Chester and even then some of the demand is for Chester to Stockport or those who have opted for the cheaper, slower method of getting from Chester to Manchester. On Saturdays there's probably enough demand for 2tph from Altrincham to Chester but even then Chester demand is still lower than Manchester demand.

 

[Philip]

I think what this shows is how short sighted it was to covert the South Junction line to Metrolink, would have been a useful additional route into Manchester for goods as well as a quicker route for the Mid/West Cheshire services.

The problem with running services through Denton is the timing, the line speed is low and there are bottleneck junctions along the way (Heaton Norris, Ashton Moss) which could conflict with and disrupt other services.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Here's where I have personally seen the most demand for:
Northwich - Knutsford
Northwich - Altrincham
Northwich - Stockport
Knutsford - Altrincham
Knutsford - Stockport
Altrincham - Stockport

 

[Greybeard33]

Standard pattern Chester services are 9 minutes southbound (I'm ignoring northbound times because I'm aware of padding being added in to ensure trains arrive at their destination 'on time') The only Chester services I can see doing 8 minutes are some off-pattern early/late services when the lines are quieter. A minute or so by itself might not make a difference but if we're talking about 2 x Mid-Cheshire, 2 x Buxton, as well as Alderley Edge services switching from 75mph 15xs to 100mph 769s surely that should collectively make a difference.

The services that are 9 minutes have 1 minute of pathing allowances, due to the possibility of signal checks at Piccadilly throat, Ardwick Jn, and/or Slade Lane Jn. See the "Allowances - Pth" column on RTT, e.g. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24513/2018/12/05/advanced. A higher speed train running in the same path would be subject to the same allowances. For a fair comparison of the differences in unit performance, you need to look at a service that has a clear path, such as the 0709 Picc to Chester, arr Stockport 0717.

The southbound Buxton trains have Slow line routings, which take longer even when non-stop. The Alderley Edge services stop at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel, so never reach even 75mph. I doubt a 769 will be any quicker than a 15x, even under the wires - the extra weight of the diesel generators will make the acceleration even more sluggish than a 319.

 

[Greybeard33]

Because someone at Northern decided they knew best and screwed up.

Network Rail is the arbiter of what paths are available to Northern. After the May timetable chaos, it seems to be a case of "once bitten, twice shy".

Here's where I have personally seen the most demand for:
Northwich - Knutsford
Northwich - Altrincham
Northwich - Stockport
Knutsford - Altrincham
Knutsford - Stockport
Altrincham - Stockport

So the second service will tick 50% of your boxes - not utterly pointless!

 

[LOL The Irony]

So the second service will tick 50% of your boxes - not utterly pointless!

Can I tell you that a ticket that allows Metrolink usage is £1 more expensive?

 

[northwichcat]

Here's where I have personally seen the most demand for:
Northwich - Knutsford
Northwich - Altrincham
Northwich - Stockport
Knutsford - Altrincham
Knutsford - Stockport
Altrincham - Stockport

Network Rail is the arbiter of what paths are available to Northern. After the May timetable chaos, it seems to be a case of "once bitten, twice shy".

So the second service will tick 50% of your boxes - not utterly pointless!

I think when MCRUA did passenger count data the busiest stations for passengers boarding/alighting Mid-Cheshire services were:
1. Piccadilly
2. Knutsford
3. Altrincham
4. Stockport
5. Northwich
6. Chester
7. Greenbank
8. Hale

The ITT required the second service to serve the top 5 of those, Arriva's bid was to serve 7 out of the top 8, while Altrincham to Chester will serve 6 of the top 8 but crucially not the busiest station!

 

[AndrewE]

The signalling at Stockport does not permit a terminating northbound service to reverse back to the south. An ECS move to the north is required, either reversing on the viaduct (which blocks both Fast lines for several minutes) or turning on to the Denton line at Heaton Norris Junction, then reversing at Ash Bridge Junction (a lengthy process - see e.g. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69908/2018/12/05/advanced). Either way, a Mid-Cheshire line service that turns back at Stockport has to cross the Fasts twice, making it difficult to path...

Let's capitalise on this and send it to Stalybridge then! Double benefit of a connection off the Crewe line that removes the need to go into Piccadilly, plus more journey opportunities / fewer changes from mid Cheshire to W Yorkshire. Bring it on... (Triple benefit... it restores the Stockport Stalybridge service)
ps I have realised that I should have been more specific and said it will restore the possibility of doing the mid-Cheshire to W Yorks journey with a single change that would be lost after the Chester to Piccadilly trains (diverted off the direct line from Altrincham) started terminating at Stockport.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Let's capitalise on this and send it to Stalybridge then! Double benefit of a connection off the Crewe line that removes the need to go into Piccadilly, plus more journey opportunities / fewer changes from mid Cheshire to W Yorkshire. Bring it on...

I was thinking about that...

 

[Greybeard33]

Can I tell you that a ticket that allows Metrolink usage is £1 more expensive?

It depends on the journey and the ticket type. As I understand it, a combined rail + Metrolink ticket from Cheshire is the same price as buying separate tickets. Taking a worst case, an Anytime Single from Hale to Manchester via Stockport is £4.40, the same price as Altrincham to Manchester via Metrolink. But Hale to Altrincham is £2, so Hale to Manchester via Sale is £2 more expensive.

As I have said before, heads need banging together to get Metrolink integrated into the ATOC national revenue sharing system like Merseyrail.

 

[LOL The Irony]

As I have said before, heads need banging together to get Metrolink integrated into the ATOC national revenue sharing system like Merseyrail.

Devolution will sink that like a stone.

 

[Greybeard33]

Let's capitalise on this and send it to Stalybridge then! Double benefit of a connection off the Crewe line that removes the need to go into Piccadilly, plus more journey opportunities / fewer changes from mid Cheshire to W Yorkshire. Bring it on... (Triple benefit... it restores the Stockport Stalybridge service)
ps I have realised that I should have been more specific and said it will restore the possibility of doing the mid-Cheshire to W Yorks journey with a single change that would be lost after the Chester to Piccadilly trains (diverted off the direct line from Altrincham) started terminating at Stockport.

Whoa, not so fast! That would still need paths through Edgeley Junction No.2, Stockport and Heaton Norris Junction. Presumably Northern could not obtain such paths, or it would at least have offered Stockport - Greenbank for the second hourly service rather than Altrincham - Chester.

No-one is suggesting diversion of the existing hourly Mid-Cheshire service away from Piccadilly.

 

[AndrewE]

Whoa, not so fast! That would still need paths through Edgeley Junction No.2, Stockport and Heaton Norris Junction. Presumably Northern could not obtain such paths, or it would at least have offered Stockport - Greenbank for the second hourly service rather than Altrincham - Chester.

No-one is suggesting diversion of the existing hourly Mid-Cheshire service away from Piccadilly.

I was picking up on someone's "An ECS move to the north is required, either reversing on the viaduct (which blocks both Fast lines for several minutes) or turning on to the Denton line at Heaton Norris Junction, then reversing at Ash Bridge Junction." Trying to salvage some potential benefit from a potential termination short of a service that currently serves central Manchester. It's not a bad idea, though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Quick question regarding the "new" Huddersfield to Leeds service: AIUI the service requires two units, usually a 185 and a hired-in 170. Presumably this service is now standard class only, with first on the 185 declassified?

 

[Kite159]

Quick question regarding the "new" Huddersfield to Leeds service: AIUI the service requires two units, usually a 185 and a hired-in 170. Presumably this service is now standard class only, with first on the 185 declassified?

Looking at RTT it appears some are listed as standard class only [i.e. 13:53 Leeds - Huddersfield today], but some are showing as "First & Standard" [i.e. 14:53 Leeds - Huddersfield]. So I guess the odd-hour departure is meant to be the 170 with the even-hour departures as the 185?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Looking at RTT it appears some are listed as standard class only [i.e. 13:53 Leeds - Huddersfield today], but some are showing as "First & Standard" [i.e. 14:53 Leeds - Huddersfield]. So I guess the odd-hour departure is meant to be the 170 with the even-hour departures as the 185?

They're wrong then, as the 1453 (which I'm sat on as I type) is a 170 (478 for those interested in such). Yesterday's 1929 arrival at Huddersfield was a 185, but we great unwashed were allowed to sit in 1st.

EDIT: the 1453 ex-Huddersfield is a 170, not the ex-Leeds.

Either way, I can't imagine that having first on only half the services is workable. It's only a matter of time before the diagrams have to be swapped for whatever reason and anyone with a first advance will be due some money back.

Of note, the change seems to require more use of P5 at Huddersfield for the Wakefield Kirkgate service, meaning the May upgrade of that service to a 3-car 144 will have to end (P5 is max 40m). A dogbox is on that duty today.

 

[Starmill]

Devolution will sink that like a stone.

There's nothing to be sunk. It has never been proposed or, as far as I am aware, considered on a political level.

It ought to have been made a condition of the consents to build the lines that they remain integrated. Of course that might have impacted negatively on their financial case and reduced the scope to build new lines.

However you look at it there should be no reason why the timetable can't provide connections between Northern and Metrolink services and for these to be shown properly in journey planners. Disappointingly, because this is the UK, this will still result in higher charges.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The other option could be to revisit the idea of reintroducing hourly services at Denton and Reddish North by running a 'South Manchester' service through to Victoria.

Seeing Denton and Reddish North haven't had a train since August and aren't likely to have one before 2019 now the residents will be relieved if this happens!

 

[Esker-pades]

Can't a northbound service go to platform 1? I realise for Mid-Cheshire that would wouldn't be a solution but it could allow a unit to run back and forth on a Hazel Grove to Stockport shuttle.

The other option could be to revisit the idea of reintroducing hourly services at Denton and Reddish North by running a 'South Manchester' service through to Victoria.

Seeing Denton and Reddish North haven't had a train since August and aren't likely to have one before 2019 now the residents will be relieved if this happens!

Slight point of order, it is Reddish South that sits on the Stockport to Stalybridge line, not Reddish North.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

I think when MCRUA did passenger count data the busiest stations for passengers boarding/alighting Mid-Cheshire services were:
1. Piccadilly
2. Knutsford
3. Altrincham
4. Stockport
5. Northwich
6. Chester
7. Greenbank
8. Hale

The ITT required the second service to serve the top 5 of those, Arriva's bid was to serve 7 out of the top 8, while Altrincham to Chester will serve 6 of the top 8 but crucially not the busiest station!

Happen to know if there's a similar version of this for the Stoke line?

 

[northwichcat]

Happen to know if there's a similar version of this for the Stoke line?

Not that I'm aware of. The MCRUA version was complied by volunteers doing detailed passenger counts. The 'official industry' counts are generally someone jumping on a train at Stockport counting how many people are on board and comparing the number to other routes and the LENNON data.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Not that I'm aware of. The MCRUA version was complied by volunteers doing detailed passenger counts. The 'official industry' counts are generally someone jumping on a train at Stockport counting how many people are on board and comparing the number to other routes and the LENNON data.

Ahh ok, I have a general idea of the amounts anyway, just wondered if anything official was around. Although I've normally only counted at peak times and I'm yet to count on a Saturday strike day.

 

[pdq]

New Hud to Leeds timetable hasn't quite worked this afternoon.
1648 HUD - LDS left Hud on time to the second.
1645 to Middlesbrough running late so left HUD at 1651. It is scheduled to call at Dewsbury.
1648 has 5 mins or so dwell at DEW to allow Scarborough to pass. But obviously blocked the platform for the MBR, which zoomed through on the centre line, followed by the SCA.
I suspect they were making a point of the new service being on time and not held up, but pax for DEW (or connections) on the MBR won't have been pleased

 

[Kieran1990]

New Hud to Leeds timetable hasn't quite worked this afternoon.
1648 HUD - LDS left Hud on time to the second.
1645 to Middlesbrough running late so left HUD at 1651. It is scheduled to call at Dewsbury.
1648 has 5 mins or so dwell at DEW to allow Scarborough to pass. But obviously blocked the platform for the MBR, which zoomed through on the centre line, followed by the SCA.
I suspect they were making a point of the new service being on time and not held up, but pax for DEW (or connections) on the MBR won't have been pleased

Nothing new with the Middlesbrough skipping Dewsbury. The 17:45 skips it fairly regularly to loop the stopper.

How has the TPE tweaks worked today? Any improvement noticed?

 

[Spartacus]

Northern vice TPE 170 1953 Leeds - Hud skipping all stations despite being ready to depart RT, guard not told why. Minimal delay to TPE express services, mostly running right order, none of which would have been affected by the stopper.

 

[northernchris]

Northern vice TPE 170 1953 Leeds - Hud skipping all stations despite being ready to depart RT, guard not told why. Minimal delay to TPE express services, mostly running right order, none of which would have been affected by the stopper.

According to JourneyCheck, it's due to traincrew being delayed

 

[Spartacus]

According to JourneyCheck, it's due to traincrew being delayed

Not according to the traincrew, only departed 4 late due to regulation anyway.

 

[northernchris]

Not according to the traincrew, only departed 4 late due to regulation anyway.

Unless the traincrew weren't as delayed as initially thought when the decision was made

 

[Kite159]

Northern vice TPE 170 1953 Leeds - Hud skipping all stations despite being ready to depart RT, guard not told why. Minimal delay to TPE express services, mostly running right order, none of which would have been affected by the stopper.

And looks like it sat at Heaton Lodge junction for 8 minutes for right time...

.. bravo TPE for yet another f**k up