December 2018 timetable changes (some now confirmed scrapped) - contagion spreads

[swt_passenger]

Re IBM - is there a different closure procedure in Scotland when compared to the rest of the UK?

There wasn’t when NR consulted on closing Breich. That referenced Railways Act 2005 - the normal rules for GB I think.

 

[Esker-pades]

There is now a dedicated thread for the closure of IBM:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ibm-halt-closure.173721/

 

[northwichcat]

So Northern use the excuses of no paths and no recast until May 2019 as reasons for putting off Mid-Cheshire and Macclesfield line changes. Yet they seem to have found a path to introduce a new 07:51 Hazel Grove to Piccadilly on 10th December, as well as a path for a 07:59 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove ECS, as well as another ECS to move a unit from Piccadilly to Stockport platform 3a at 08:12.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

So Northern use the excuses of no paths and no recast until May 2019 as reasons for putting off Mid-Cheshire and Macclesfield line changes. Yet they seem to have found a path to introduce a new 07:51 Hazel Grove to Piccadilly on 10th December, as well as a path for a 07:59 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove ECS, as well as another ECS to move a unit from Piccadilly to Stockport platform 3a at 08:12.

Network Rail are calling the shots on what timetable changes are and aren’t permitted, not Northern (or any other TOC or FOC for that matter.) If there’s inconsistency the fault lies with them!

 

[Greybeard33]

So Northern use the excuses of no paths and no recast until May 2019 as reasons for putting off Mid-Cheshire and Macclesfield line changes. Yet they seem to have found a path to introduce a new 07:51 Hazel Grove to Piccadilly on 10th December, as well as a path for a 07:59 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove ECS, as well as another ECS to move a unit from Piccadilly to Stockport platform 3a at 08:12.

Northern has managed to make a glaring error in its announcement of the December changes:

• New weekday morning (8.17am) service from Southport to Manchester Piccadilly via Wigan North Western

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...northern-announces-december-timetable-changes
This service will, of course, run via Wigan Wallgate, not North Western. And it will terminate at Alderley Edge, not Piccadilly as implied. And it is not entirely new, it replaces the current 0850 Wigan North Western to Alderley Edge, running in the same path.

 

[northwichcat]

Network Rail are calling the shots on what timetable changes are and aren’t permitted, not Northern (or any other TOC or FOC for that matter.) If there’s inconsistency the fault lies with them!

TOCs have to request paths though. Network Rail don't approach TOCs and say fancy running an additional service to X?

 

[Ianno87]

So Northern use the excuses of no paths and no recast until May 2019 as reasons for putting off Mid-Cheshire and Macclesfield line changes. Yet they seem to have found a path to introduce a new 07:51 Hazel Grove to Piccadilly on 10th December, as well as a path for a 07:59 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove ECS, as well as another ECS to move a unit from Piccadilly to Stockport platform 3a at 08:12.

Hazel Grove doesn't involve single lines (mid-Chesire) nor a two track railway with high speed services (Macclesfield).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

TOCs have to request paths though. Network Rail don't approach TOCs and say fancy running an additional service to X?

How do you know they haven’t requested it, and Network Rail have said no. As a rule, they are willing to accept proposals which have zero impact on any other paths / operators, but are blanket rejecting anything that requires any noticeable retimetabling.

 

[Greybeard33]

Hazel Grove doesn't involve single lines (mid-Chesire) nor a two track railway with high speed services (Macclesfield).

Now that the second Mid-Cheshire service is to be Altrincham - Chester instead of Piccadilly - Greenbank, it will not involve the single lines at Cheadle Village or Navigation Road. But it will need extra DMUs, which presumably will now remain in short supply until May 2019, when the post-electrification timetable will at last be implemented on the Bolton line and the 195s start to enter service.

The additional peak Hazel Grove service just makes more use of an under-employed EMU.

 

[northwichcat]

Now that the second Mid-Cheshire service is to be Altrincham - Chester instead of Piccadilly - Greenbank, it will not involve the single lines at Cheadle Village or Navigation Road. But it will need extra DMUs, which presumably will now remain in short supply until May 2019, when the post-electrification timetable will at last be implemented on the Bolton line and the 195s start to enter service.

The additional peak Hazel Grove service just makes more use of an under-employed EMU.

Yet the extra ECS path is timed for a 75mph DMU.

TfN have said Northern are still required to find a way of introducing additional Manchester services from Macclesfield and Greenback even if they start Dec 19 or later, meaning the Altrincham only service is supposed to be temporary.

 

[northwichcat]

How do you know they haven’t requested it, and Network Rail have said no. As a rule, they are willing to accept proposals which have zero impact on any other paths / operators, but are blanket rejecting anything that requires any noticeable retimetabling.

Presumably they'll be a rejected track access application form if that's the case.

 

[northwichcat]

Hazel Grove doesn't involve single lines (mid-Chesire) nor a two track railway with high speed services (Macclesfield).

Buy terminating services at Hazel Grove does require a shunt around to keep units out of the way of TPE and EMT services.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Buy terminating services at Hazel Grove does require a shunt around to keep units out of the way of TPE and EMT services.

Doesn't look like the new services do that, they seem to slot straight in and straight out of otherwise vacant platforms. Hazel Grove is aided by the fact traffic arriving from the Hope Valley can use either line through the station, so something can sit in 2 whilst TPE and EMT use 1 for everything.

 

[30907]

Yet the extra ECS path is timed for a 75mph DMU.

The timing load is not an absolute guide to the class of unit.

 

[northwichcat]

Doesn't look like the new services do that, they seem to slot straight in and straight out of otherwise vacant platforms. Hazel Grove is aided by the fact traffic arriving from the Hope Valley can use either line through the station, so something can sit in 2 whilst TPE and EMT use 1 for everything.

I didn't check before posting. There is still the working which involves a Chester service terminating at Stockport, crossing all lines at Stockport and blocking Ash Bridge Junction for 6 minutes to get a unit to Hazel Grove though, which ends up running a service only 3 minutes ahead of the following Buxton one. Surely that could have been eliminated now they've secured an additional Hazel Grove path.

 

[Greybeard33]

I didn't check before posting. There is still the working which involves a Chester service terminating at Stockport, crossing all lines at Stockport and blocking Ash Bridge Junction for 6 minutes to get a unit to Hazel Grove though, which ends up running a service only 3 minutes ahead of the following Buxton one. Surely that could have been eliminated now they've secured an additional Hazel Grove path.

No, the 0841 Stockport to Hazel Grove ECS positions the ex-Chester DMU to form the 0910 to Piccadilly. That is in fact 25 minutes ahead of the next service from Buxton and 11 minutes ahead of the next service to Piccadilly. Without it there would be a gap of 48 minutes between successive services from Hazel Grove to Manchester.

The next service in this diagram is the 0948 Piccadilly to Buxton, which obviously has to be operated by a DMU.

The 0759 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove ECS, although timed for a Sprinter, positions an EMU to form the 0821 to Piccadilly. This unit subsequently forms the 0901 Piccadilly to Crewe. Currently the 0821 is formed from the 0722 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove, but that EMU will be used for the new 0751 to Piccadilly.

The 0812 Piccadilly to Stockport ECS just gets an EMU out of Piccadilly after it has finished its morning peak workings. It could not work the 0910 from Hazel Grove, because the DMU would still need to get to Piccadilly as well and so would need an extra morning peak path into Piccadilly.

 

[northwichcat]

No, the 0841 Stockport to Hazel Grove ECS positions the ex-Chester DMU to form the 0910 to Piccadilly. That is in fact 25 minutes ahead of the next service from Buxton and 11 minutes ahead of the next service to Piccadilly. Without it there would be a gap of 48 minutes between successive services from Hazel Grove to Manchester.

The next service in this diagram is the 0948 Piccadilly to Buxton, which obviously has to be operated by a DMU.

The 0759 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove ECS, although timed for a Sprinter, positions an EMU to form the 0821 to Piccadilly. This unit subsequently forms the 0901 Piccadilly to Crewe. Currently the 0821 is formed from the 0722 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove, but that EMU will be used for the new 0751 to Piccadilly.

The 0812 Piccadilly to Stockport ECS just gets an EMU out of Piccadilly after it has finished its morning peak workings. It could not work the 0910 from Hazel Grove, because the DMU would still need to get to Piccadilly as well and so would need an extra morning peak path into Piccadilly.

I looked at the times too quickly. However, there is still another Hazel Grove-Piccadilly service 11 minutes behind the one worked by the unit off the Chester service and then a Buxton service close behind that.

Of note there's nothing on the slow lines from Stockport northbound for a long time after the 07:48 Crewe to Manchester. Extending the Chester service northbound will calls at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme would be much more useful overall than the 09:10 Hazel Grove to Piccadilly calling at Heaton Chapel and the following Buxton to Piccadilly calling at Levenshulme, rather than leaving Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme with a 50 minute gap in services northbound in the middle of the morning peak. Someone somewhere made a bit of a big error for that to happen!

 

[Greybeard33]

Of note there's nothing on the slow lines from Stockport northbound for a long time after the 07:48 Crewe to Manchester. Extending the Chester service northbound will calls at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme would be much more useful overall than the 09:10 Hazel Grove to Piccadilly calling at Heaton Chapel and the following Buxton to Piccadilly calling at Levenshulme, rather than leaving Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme with a 50 minute gap in services northbound in the middle of the morning peak. Someone somewhere made a bit of a big error for that to happen!

The 0729 Alderley Edge to Piccadilly passes through Stockport non-stop on the Down Slow at 0743, only 3 minutes before arrival of the Chester service at 0746. It then calls at Heaton Chapel at 0747 and Levenshulme at 0750, so there is no 50 minute gap at those stations.

There is no path for the Chester service to follow the Alderley Edge to Piccadilly, which is why it has to terminate at Stockport. Between Slade Lane Junction and Piccadilly, the Slow is occupied by the 0740 Airport to Preston and the Fast by the XC 0630 New Street to Piccadilly.

 

[northwichcat]

The 0729 Alderley Edge to Piccadilly passes through Stockport non-stop on the Down Slow at 0743, only 3 minutes before arrival of the Chester service at 0746. It then calls at Heaton Chapel at 0747 and Levenshulme at 0750, so there is no 50 minute gap at those stations.

There is no path for the Chester service to follow the Alderley Edge to Piccadilly, which is why it has to terminate at Stockport. Between Slade Lane Junction and Piccadilly, the Slow is occupied by the 0740 Airport to Preston and the Fast by the XC 0630 New Street to Piccadilly.

The 07:48 Crewe-Manchester I referred to stops at Heaton Chapel at 08:32 and then after that the next service calling at Heaton Chapel is the Hazel Grove to Manchester at 09:24 so there's a huge gap. If the (second) Chester-Stockport could continue to Manchester making Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme calls that situation would improve.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If the (second) Chester-Stockport could continue to Manchester making Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme calls that situation would improve.

Yeah well some incompetent Northern manager(s) tried to change the times, despite the previous times being approved by the ORR.

 

[northwichcat]

Yeah well some incompetent Northern manager(s) tried to change the times, despite the previous times being approved by the ORR.

The original times had a Greenbank all-stops leaving Piccadilly around 30 minutes after a Chester semi-fast and a ex-Chester semi-fast leaving Knutsford around 17 minutes after an ex-Greenbank all-stops. MCRUA tried to get them changed to be half-hourly in both directions and the Greenbank to be the semi-fast and half the paths in the Manchester direction got rejected and by that time Northern knew about the electrification delays.

 

[Greybeard33]

The 07:48 Crewe-Manchester I referred to stops at Heaton Chapel at 08:32 and then after that the next service calling at Heaton Chapel is the Hazel Grove to Manchester at 09:24 so there's a huge gap. If the (second) Chester-Stockport could continue to Manchester making Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme calls that situation would improve.

Sorry, I was looking at the wrong hour. But nevertheless, there is equally no path for the 0715 Chester to Stockport to continue to Piccadilly. It would get to Slade Lane at about 0851, an hour later than the Alderley Edge service I referred to above. At that time 0800 Buxton to Victoria is crossing from the Fast line to the Slow line at the junction, in order to get to Piccadilly P14. It would not be possible for another train to cross from the Slow to the Fast at the same time.

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry, I was looking at the wrong hour. But nevertheless, there is equally no path for the 0715 Chester to Stockport to continue to Piccadilly. It would get to Slade Lane at about 0851, an hour later than the Alderley Edge service I referred to above. At that time 0800 Buxton to Victoria is crossing from the Fast line to the Slow line at the junction, in order to get to Piccadilly P14. It would not be possible for another train to cross from the Slow to the Fast at the same time.

Not necessarily. The Chester to Stockport is timed so that it arrives at Stockport at a time when it can arrive early and still go straight to platform 4 and can remain there for a couple of minutes before doing the shunt around to do the ECS to Hazel Grove. If it continued to Piccadilly the timings could be reworked slightly or even the Chester could continue to Victoria and the Buxton service could terminate at Piccadilly. In fact doing that would increase flexibility with diagramming as it wouldn't mean one Chester-Stockport needs to be a 150 because it goes on to the Buxton line later.

 

[js1000]

So Northern use the excuses of no paths and no recast until May 2019 as reasons for putting off Mid-Cheshire and Macclesfield line changes. Yet they seem to have found a path to introduce a new 07:51 Hazel Grove to Piccadilly on 10th December, as well as a path for a 07:59 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove ECS, as well as another ECS to move a unit from Piccadilly to Stockport platform 3a at 08:12.

Finding an addittional path for Chester service will be tricky but possible - although it may have to make additional calls. Makes me laugh how Northern were planning for a Macclesfield to Blackpool/Preston service - seems a very long time ago.

The complete chaos on the Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport - less so on the Southport to Alderley Edge via Stockport - has shown the Northern network as it is cannot cope with longer distance services.

Passengers on the two above services have dropped off a cliff since May due to unreliability and poor punctuality. Northern has been bruised as both of these routes have bread and butter commuter revenue that they are losing. It is little surprise they are reassessing along with TfTN if the entire planned tranche of Northern Connect routes are actually able to operate a reliable service that will not drive passengers away.

 

[northwichcat]

The complete chaos on the Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport - less so on the Southport to Alderley Edge via Stockport - has shown the Northern network as it is cannot cope with longer distance services.

The Southport to Alderley Edge is peak time only with off-peak services being Wigan to Alderley Edge and interworked with Wigan to Stalybridge. Northern do have to provide direct services from Stockport to Manchester Oxford Rd.

 

[Greybeard33]

Not necessarily. The Chester to Stockport is timed so that it arrives at Stockport at a time when it can arrive early and still go straight to platform 4 and can remain there for a couple of minutes before doing the shunt around to do the ECS to Hazel Grove. If it continued to Piccadilly the timings could be reworked slightly or even the Chester could continue to Victoria and the Buxton service could terminate at Piccadilly. In fact doing that would increase flexibility with diagramming as it wouldn't mean one Chester-Stockport needs to be a 150 because it goes on to the Buxton line later.

You may be correct - Northern's unit and crew diagramming is too complex for an armchair amateur like me to work out all the repercussions of such a change.

But in any case it is now too late for the December timetable. In May 2019 there is to be a further recast of Piccadilly - Stockport timings, to restore through services from Hazel Grove to Blackpool and reinstate 4tph at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. I guess that the Mid-Cheshire line timetable might change again in consequence (and to add the off-peak Altrincham - Chester services). We will have to wait and see what is proposed.

 

[northwichcat]

You may be correct - Northern's unit and crew diagramming is too complex for an armchair amateur like me to work out all the repercussions of such a change.

But in any case it is now too late for the December timetable. In May 2019 there is to be a further recast of Piccadilly - Stockport timings, to restore through services from Hazel Grove to Blackpool and reinstate 4tph at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. I guess that the Mid-Cheshire line timetable might change again in consequence (and to add the off-peak Altrincham - Chester services). We will have to wait and see what is proposed.

I reckon a service running Chester-Altrincham semi-fast will take around 45 minutes. With the existing Altrincham-Manchester paths I don't think there's a nice way of doing Manchester-Chester, Chester-Altrincham, Altrincham-Chester, Chester-Manchester without either having units sat idle for a long time at Chester twice or having an inconsistent timetable. If Chester to Leeds starts there could be an option for inter-working there but I think it's unlikely they'll inter-work units between the two routes.

Another thing that'll make it complicated is if the evening peak Stockport-Chester services remain will that mean something like a 16:30 Chester to Altrincham extend to Stockport or will it mean a service terminates at Altrincham and then does an ECS to somewhere?

 

[Greybeard33]

I reckon a service running Chester-Altrincham semi-fast will take around 45 minutes. With the existing Altrincham-Manchester paths I don't think there's a nice way of doing Manchester-Chester, Chester-Altrincham, Altrincham-Chester, Chester-Manchester without either having units sat idle for a long time at Chester twice or having an inconsistent timetable. If Chester to Leeds starts there could be an option for inter-working there but I think it's unlikely they'll inter-work units between the two routes.

Another thing that'll make it complicated is if the evening peak Stockport-Chester services remain will that mean something like a 16:30 Chester to Altrincham extend to Stockport or will it mean a service terminates at Altrincham and then does an ECS to somewhere?

Hmm. If a semi-fast can cut about 13 minutes off the Chester - Altrincham time, it would be just about possible to add the Altrinchams with only one extra diagram and interworking, assuming 10 minute turnrounds throughout (5 hours for the complete circuit versus 4 now). But that would mean very uneven spacings, whichever is the semi-fast. And I do not know if the timings through the Mickle Trafford - Mouldsworth single line would work.

If a 6th diagram is added, there would be no need for interworking if the Altrinchams are semi-fast - they could be worked by two standalone diagrams, with the Piccadillys unchanged. If the Altrinchams are all shacks, interworking would be needed whether or not the Piccadillys become semi-fast.

No idea what is likely to happen in the peaks.

I agree it is unlikely there will be interworking between the Mid-Cheshire and the Chester Northern Connect. No 195s through Knutsford I'm afraid!

 

[LOL The Irony]

I agree it is unlikely there will be interworking between the Mid-Cheshire and the Chester Northern Connect. No 195s through Knutsford I'm afraid!

You want a bet? Ever heard of the NRRUG?

 

[northernchris]

Has there been a last minute change to the Huddersfield - Halifax - Leeds service? The printed timetables show these departing Huddersfield around xx:17 minutes past the hour, having arrived from Leeds around 6 minutes earlier. However, Realtime Trains and National Rail are showing them departing at xx:03, with around a 50 minute layover