Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[clagmonster]

The 331/1s are to be based at Allerton, but I don't know how many 331/0s are to be based at Allerton and Neville Hill respectively.

I recall that thee were to be 16 331s at Neville Hill and the remainder at Allerton.

 

[507021]

I recall that thee were to be 16 331s at Neville Hill and the remainder at Allerton.

Thanks for that.

 

[childwallblues]

I can't see anything more sensible than sending them all to Northern following PRM changes and new seat covers. They are perfectly suited to Northern's EMU needs as they are, and despite being quite old now still look very modern. Then scrap the 319s, they're old and unreliable anyway.

319s are pretty reliable these days.

 

[prod_pep]

319s are pretty reliable these days.

I have to disagree. There have been several diesel substitutes on 319-booked diagrams recently, and considering how many spares there should be each day, that is very poor. One also let me down only the other week to Broad Green.

I'm desperately hoping common sense prevails and the 319s are kicked into touch sooner rather than later.

 

[185143]

I have to disagree. There have been several diesel substitutes on 319-booked diagrams recently, and considering how many spares there should be each day, that is very poor. One also let me down only the other week to Broad Green.

I'm desperately hoping common sense prevails and the 319s are kicked into touch sooner rather than later.

150121 did the 16:16 Crewe-Liverpool one day last week!

 

[Red Devil]

16.45 Liv-wgn. Enough passengers waiting to fill 2x319's.
What turns up? 1x 142!! Appalling and shameful

 

[AMD]

16.45 Liv-wgn. Enough passengers waiting to fill 2x319's.
What turns up? 1x 142!! Appalling and shameful

It's not great, but the alternative yesterday was to cancel the service; as it was 142070 which was originally working that diagram failed at Wigan which didn't help matters.

 

[Red Devil]

Plenty of 319's berthed up at allerton

 

[AMD]

Plenty of 319's berthed up at allerton

Today, yes there will be as there's a strike. Yesterday, only demics for which there were a few.

 

[yorksrob]

In what way? The Class 319 interior is basically identical to the Class 150 interior (layout as per /1, seats as per /2). Indeed the seating as supplied (except the small number of /2 sets with Chapman seats) is markedly inferior.

A 769 beats a pair of 150s, but that is only because of the pantograph.

The 319's are a massive improvement on the majority of 150's with 3+2 airline seating.

 

[js1000]

In what way? The Class 319 interior is basically identical to the Class 150 interior (layout as per /1, seats as per /2). Indeed the seating as supplied (except the small number of /2 sets with Chapman seats) is markedly inferior.

A 769 beats a pair of 150s, but that is only because of the pantograph.

The seating layout is similar. But that's not the problem.

The 150s are that they are noisy and grotty. Same with many of the Pacers and 156s. The EMUs generally are not. 769s would represent a big upgrade on the 150s. I can certainly see Northern increasing the order from 11 to 20 if the 769s are a success.

 

[Chester1]

The seating layout is similar. But that's not the problem.

The 150s are that they are noisy and grotty. Same with many of the Pacers and 156s. The EMUs generally are not. 769s would represent a big upgrade on the 150s. I can certainly see Northern increasing the order from 11 to 20 if the 769s are a success.

Northern have expressed interest in replacing sprinters prior to 2025 but Porterbrook only lease 11 x 2 car 150s, 8 x 153s and 7 x 155s to Northern which limits the options to swap units. The 156s are decent units for routes that do not justify a 158 or 195. From a long term perspective it makes to make sure Northern lease 323s, convert 319s as possible and get rid of Porterbrook 150s, 153s and 155s. TfW are only leasing their 5 x 769s as an interim measure so maybe they could go to Northern and some sprinters be scavenged for parts and scrapped?

 

[MatthewRead]

Northern have expressed interest in replacing sprinters prior to 2025 but Porterbrook only lease 11 x 2 car 150s, 8 x 153s and 7 x 155s to Northern which limits the options to swap units. The 156s are decent units for routes that do not justify a 158 or 195. From a long term perspective it makes to make sure Northern lease 323s, convert 319s as possible and get rid of Porterbrook 150s, 153s and 155s. TfW are only leasing their 5 x 769s as an interim measure so maybe they could go to Northern and some sprinters be scavenged for parts and scrapped?

Actually TFW are leasing 9 769's

 

[Jonny]

I have to disagree. There have been several diesel substitutes on 319-booked diagrams recently, and considering how many spares there should be each day, that is very poor. One also let me down only the other week to Broad Green.

I'm desperately hoping common sense prevails and the 319s are kicked into touch sooner rather than later.

Perhaps the 323s could fill in for some of them once available; however 323s have a slight weakness in terms of being limited to 90mph in service as it stands.

 

[507021]

Actually TFW are leasing 9 769's

They're leasing five, with an option for a further four units.

 

[MatthewRead]

They're leasing five, with an option for a further four units.

It has been confirmed in the latest issue of Today's Railways that they will taking on the additional 4 units they are planning to remove the pantagraph's pending electrification.

 

[craigybagel]

Perhaps the 323s could fill in for some of them once available; however 323s have a slight weakness in terms of being limited to 90mph in service as it stands.

The 323s acceleration to 90 is so much better then the 319s however - it would need to be a very long stretch at 100, probably longer then any that exists between stations on the Northern network, for a 319 to outperform a 323.

 

[Mogster]

The seating layout is similar. But that's not the problem.

The 150s are that they are noisy and grotty. Same with many of the Pacers and 156s. The EMUs generally are not. 769s would represent a big upgrade on the 150s. I can certainly see Northern increasing the order from 11 to 20 if the 769s are a success.

Having travelled on Northern 150s and 319s recently there’s really very little difference. The seating arrangements are just as bad, with the windows open they are both noisy, there’s no aircon, both were old with dirty interiors.

The only advantage, and it is a big one, is that a 4 car 319 can’t be split in 2 so a shortformed service is impossible...

The 319s seem to be disappearing lately, not sure if that’s a sign Northern are having problems keeping them serviceable.

 

[bramling]

The 323s acceleration to 90 is so much better then the 319s however - it would need to be a very long stretch at 100, probably longer then any that exists between stations on the Northern network, for a 319 to outperform a 323.

The 100mph of a 319 is at times theoretical due to the tendency of DC motors to fade away at about 80 mph. A 323 has much more chance of reaching 90 mph quickly and sustaining it.

The only bit in the north-west where I’m thinking the 319 might have the edge is on a non-stop run along parts of the WCML.

 

[yorksrob]

Having travelled on Northern 150s and 319s recently there’s really very little difference. The seating arrangements are just as bad, with the windows open they are both noisy, there’s no aircon, both were old with dirty interiors.

The only advantage, and it is a big one, is that a 4 car 319 can’t be split in 2 so a shortformed service is impossible...

The 319s seem to be disappearing lately, not sure if that’s a sign Northern are having problems keeping them serviceable.

I don't really see how anyone can compare crampt and not fit for purpose 3+2 airline seating on most of the 150's, with the generally much more open layout of the 319's. The two are worlds apart.

In terms of poor availability, perhaps Northern just don't have enough of them for routine maintenance, and should aquire more from off lease.

 

[craigybagel]

The 100mph of a 319 is at times theoretical due to the tendency of DC motors to fade away at about 80 mph. A 323 has much more chance of reaching 90 mph quickly and sustaining it.

The only bit in the north-west where I’m thinking the 319 might have the edge is on a non-stop run along parts of the WCML.

The only routes that see 319s and have linespeeds greater then 90 are South of Wilmslow on Crewe services, and between Wigan and Euxton on Liverpool-Preston services. With the amount of station stops on the former, and the relatively short distance of the latter, I don't believe the 319s would be able to sustain 100mph long enough for that extra 10mph to cancel out the vastly superior acceleration of the 323s all the way up to 90mph.

 

[Mogster]

I don't really see how anyone can compare crampt and not fit for purpose 3+2 airline seating on most of the 150's, with the generally much more open layout of the 319's. The two are worlds apart.

In terms of poor availability, perhaps Northern just don't have enough of them for routine maintenance, and should aquire more from off lease.

The 319s I’ve travelled on recently had exactly the same cramped 3+2 seating as Northern’s 150s. Same weird low seats also.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't really see how anyone can compare crampt and not fit for purpose 3+2 airline seating on most of the 150's, with the generally much more open layout of the 319's. The two are worlds apart.

Around two thirds of the Northern 150 fleet has the same cramped, low backed 3+2 Ashbourne seating as their 319s. Only the ex-First North Western 150s were fitted with high-backed 3+2 Chapman seating when refurbished around the turn of the millennium.

 

[43096]

In terms of poor availability, perhaps Northern just don't have enough of them for routine maintenance, and should aquire more from off lease.

Or perhaps the maintenance is c***, like everything else on the TOC.

 

[yorksrob]

The 319s I’ve travelled on recently had exactly the same cramped 3+2 seating as Northern’s 150s. Same weird low seats also.

Yes, but not airline. This is a whole new world of cramped.

 

[yorksrob]

Around two thirds of the Northern 150 fleet has the same cramped, low backed 3+2 Ashbourne seating as their 319s. Only the ex-First North Western 150s were fitted with high-backed 3+2 Chapman seating when refurbished around the turn of the millennium.

It's the point about 3+2 airline seating though. I don't know the proportion, but the vast majority round my way, except the ex GW ones have airline seating.

 

[keith1879]

It's the point about 3+2 airline seating though. I don't know the proportion, but the vast majority round my way, except the ex GW ones have airline seating.

Exactly so. I find that in an airline seated class 150 there are very few seats where I can sit without hurting my hips ....my legs are just slightly too long. Similarly the class 323s ....Ok they accelerate quicker and were supplied brand new but they are unbearable to sit in with the exception of a very small number of seats.

 

[driver_m]

The 319s I’ve travelled on recently had exactly the same cramped 3+2 seating as Northern’s 150s. Same weird low seats also.

Agree with @yorksrob They're the same seats, but the way they're positioned bears no comparison. The 319 is a much, much better setup than a 150. Yes they're low, but you don't crack your knee on a 319 unlike a 150. Which for me, are Northerns worst unit to travel in. Yes, that includes 142s. Even 'those' ones.

 

[ABB125]

Slightly off topic, but Porterbrook will soon have 37 10-year-old class 350s sat in a siding. Would these be more suitable to Northern than either class 319s or 323s (at the right price of course!)?

 

[507021]

It has been confirmed in the latest issue of Today's Railways that they will taking on the additional 4 units they are planning to remove the pantagraph's pending electrification.

I hadn't realised that, apologies.