jonesy3001
Established Member
Depends on what livery the 323 will go back, nobody knows whats happening to the 323s yet.
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Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I can't see anything more sensible than sending them all to Northern following PRM changes and new seat covers. They are perfectly suited to Northern's EMU needs as they are, and despite being quite old now still look very modern. Then scrap the 319s, they're old and unreliable anyway.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
What we see as sensible may not be what Porterbrook want to do with them. Remember they weren't sensible when they tried their first stab at the 323 debacle.
Only a tiny handful of 319s are on long-term lease at Northern. I think it's about 6? The remainder will be converted to '769s' or returned to the leasing company.
Nearly all of Northern's EMU only work will be covered by the 331 and 333 fleets. Unless you are proposing to retire some of those units, or siginficantly expand EMU only work?
I've heard from a friend at Northern that is a strong rumour, but nothing has been confirmed yet.
43096
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Or just that they have to be done before the 2020 PRM deadline and the replacement Aventras won't arrive before then.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would be in favour of doing that to reduce DMUs under the wires (as well as longer trains through Castlefield to reduce dwell), but that's for another thread.
If you're competing to keep a product in service, then it probably makes sense to give it an advantage by fitting the PRM stuff. After all, other newer units that may be getting touted around and being far more suitable won't have the advantage of already being signed by existing staff, therefore reducing training costs. I thought many of the posters on here like competition? 
4-SUB 4732
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Wouldn't surprise me if they have been given the money by the Government to keep them legal because the units will be late on West Mids and/or Northern.
Greybeard33
Established Member
No, the franchise agreement specified a total of 32 319s, with Arriva intending to return 5 of them in 2020, after all 331s were in service. So 27 to be retained for the remainder of the franchise. With 8 converted to 769s, that still leaves 19 319s that could potentially be replaced by 323s. If the 323s were operated in 6-car formations to increase capacity, that would be up to 38 323 units. Not far short of the entire fleet of 43.
Some observations on this:
- Porterbrook will let Northern keep the 323s for until end of 2019 at a peppercorn rate as no one else wants them. It's an apology for the delays to the 769s project while at the same time removes the need for Porterbrook to find increasingly expensive space to store surplus EMUs. Not to mention keeps Northern in their good books as realistically they are the only takers of the spare 323s post-2020.
- Some routes could just about - and I mean just about given their long carriage size - accommodate 6 car 323s. A busy commuter route such as Bolton to Alderley Edge (once electrified) route would certainly suit that. I would suggest if Northern are making Harrogate services 6 carriages with the 331s then the 323s could be utilised in a similar way on the busiest commuter routes west of the Pennines.
- Northern will not take the West Midlands 323s as they will not be required given Northern will have enough 319s and 331s until the end of the franchise in 2025 as others have already said.
- However, if Porterbrook have any business acumen about them the will let Northern exchange the 319s for the 323 fleet if the 769 project goes well. PB can convert 35-50 of the 319s to 769s while the older life expired sets can be scrapped for spare parts. Most of the 323s were built in 1996, are well-built and have got another 20 years left in them.
Letting Northern keep the 35 year+ 319s until the end of the franchise 2025 is a big gamble - it allows any new franchise and ROSCO to (most probably) make a new EMU order to replace the dated 319s. If this happened then Porterbrook would be in a position of having to write-off relatively modern sets in the 323s to increase leasing costs as there would be an over-supply in the EMU market. If Porterbrook are prudent, they would upgrade the 323s to 'Renatus' standard and secure the 323s long-term future on the Northern network, whilst the same time looking to convert more 319s assuming the 769 will be a success. The interior of the 769s are certainly an upgrade on the hoards of 150s that are currently operated by Northern.
- Porterbrook will let Northern keep the 323s for until end of 2019 at a peppercorn rate as no one else wants them. It's an apology for the delays to the 769s project while at the same time removes the need for Porterbrook to find increasingly expensive space to store surplus EMUs. Not to mention keeps Northern in their good books as realistically they are the only takers of the spare 323s post-2020.
- Some routes could just about - and I mean just about given their long carriage size - accommodate 6 car 323s. A busy commuter route such as Bolton to Alderley Edge (once electrified) route would certainly suit that. I would suggest if Northern are making Harrogate services 6 carriages with the 331s then the 323s could be utilised in a similar way on the busiest commuter routes west of the Pennines.
- Northern will not take the West Midlands 323s as they will not be required given Northern will have enough 319s and 331s until the end of the franchise in 2025 as others have already said.
- However, if Porterbrook have any business acumen about them the will let Northern exchange the 319s for the 323 fleet if the 769 project goes well. PB can convert 35-50 of the 319s to 769s while the older life expired sets can be scrapped for spare parts. Most of the 323s were built in 1996, are well-built and have got another 20 years left in them.
Letting Northern keep the 35 year+ 319s until the end of the franchise 2025 is a big gamble - it allows any new franchise and ROSCO to (most probably) make a new EMU order to replace the dated 319s. If this happened then Porterbrook would be in a position of having to write-off relatively modern sets in the 323s to increase leasing costs as there would be an over-supply in the EMU market. If Porterbrook are prudent, they would upgrade the 323s to 'Renatus' standard and secure the 323s long-term future on the Northern network, whilst the same time looking to convert more 319s assuming the 769 will be a success. The interior of the 769s are certainly an upgrade on the hoards of 150s that are currently operated by Northern.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
In what way? The Class 319 interior is basically identical to the Class 150 interior (layout as per /1, seats as per /2). Indeed the seating as supplied (except the small number of /2 sets with Chapman seats) is markedly inferior.
A 769 beats a pair of 150s, but that is only because of the pantograph.
bramling
Veteran Member
The big advantage a 319 has over a 150 from a passenger point of view is that it won’t be 2 carriages.
Apart from that the 319 is likely to be cleaner. However compared to something like a FNW-interior 150/1 (an interior which personally I rather like) there’s not much difference.
You forgot the extra space compared to a pair of 150d as a result of no intermediate cabs...
WestRiding
Member
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I think it may be a while before EMUs get to Harrogate, no wires.
I suspect they mean the Skipton services.
jonesy3001
Established Member
Is that including the manchester lines as well, eg; hadfield, stoke on trent and macclesfield?
Turnaround times seem to be a problem in a lot of areas. If Northern do keep / acquire the 323s, they should be allowed to keep enough spare capacity (319s) to allow longer turnaround times (assuming there is platform capacity). A lot of the problems around the region as a whole originate from Northern simply not having the capacity to allow anything more than a handful of minutes for these purposes.
adrock1976
Established Member
Or DC rail, as there was a proposal around 10 years ago to electrify Leeds - York via Harrogate with DC rail so as to use former London Underground stock.
I remember that one, quite an odd proposal to say the least. Frankly Leeds SuperTram had more chance than that!
Mind you, there are a load of newer EMUs likely to come off-lease soon, particularly Desiro types, that could out-pace a 323 and hit 100mph to boot. I hope that both Northern Railway and their supervisory bodies are contemplating taking some on...
Greybeard33
Established Member
I believe the franchise agreement rolling stock plan envisaged that 331s, presumably 3-car units, would replace the 323s on the Hadfield and Macclesfield/Stoke lines, because 319s would be too sluggish to keep to the 323 timings. 319s would work the Crewe and Hazel Grove services.
AFAIK it was not publicly revealed how the 331 order would be split between the North West and North East.
The 331/1s are to be based at Allerton, but I don't know how many 331/0s are to be based at Allerton and Neville Hill respectively.
jonesy3001
Established Member
when is the announcement for which fleet is going where?
MatthewRead
On Moderation
7 years ago actually back in 2011.
It may be more than 5 going back to Porterbrook in 2020, once the PRM programme for the 323s is fully up and running, although tbh the 'final final' fleet plan has yet to be nailed down internally.....
That's the current word on the grapevine - Porterbrook see a future for 769s as it looks like there is at least one more customer about to sign up for them.
jonesy3001
Established Member
only way to find out if the northern 323s are staying or going is when northern start sending them for C6 and see which colours it comes back in old or new.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
That still won't be a good indication, considering the mess of the refurb program.
If the 323s come back in the new livery I'd say it's obvious they're being retained.
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