GWR Class 800

[wils180]

There have been a lot of cases reported by passengers via Twitter that multiple toilets have been out of use, even a 5 Car unit without a working toilet at all. Unfortunately GWR have limited control over Hitachi units and have to rely on what Hitachi do or say which is not always Customer focused.

This happens a hell of a lot. Once they run out of water they self lock out as the flush doesn’t work. I presume they only get filled on the depot as opposed to at major termini like HSTs. That being said it’s extremely rare I’ve been on a HST with every single toilet working. The quality of toilet facilities are much better on IETs, just a shame they very frequently run out of water.

 

[jimm]

Who was it that kept saying the 5 car class 800s were suitable for the off peak Cotswold line services? I'm on the 1822 London Paddington to Moreton-in-Marsh and the Standard class areas of the train are horribly crowded with many passengers forced to stand in the aisles and some who struggled to board because of congestion around the doors. This is pretty unsuitable rolling stock for this service on a Saturday evening. I can see that the first class areas of the train are relatively empty.

That would probably be me then, wouldn't it?

Let's see, yesterday and for the following eight days, the Cotswold Line is shut west of Moreton-in-Marsh for work to extend station platforms, so guess what, the five-car set provided was not what is normally be provided for the 18.22 on a Saturday, ie an HST or nine-car IET, when that service would normally be going all the way though to Worcester and Hereford.

In the context of Saturday loadings, I think it's fair to say that London departures shortly after 18.00 probably do count as 'peak' as day-trippers, sports fans, etc head home - hence why a long formation would normally be used.

But don't let the boring contextual stuff applying to Cotswold services yesterday get in the way of having a pop at GWR and IETs, will you?

I expect one or two people had been to the England rugby match. Now you could argue that a nine-car set might have been a better bet in the light of that event, but I expect that even the five-car was on the quiet side past Oxford.

What can easily be predicted is timetabled sporting, and other, events.

What cannot so easily be predicted is what time people attending those events might be returning home, nor how many people will turn up at Paddington wanting a fast train back to Slough at any given point - a role that the Oxford/Cotswold services have to fulfil all day at weekends, as well as the more obvious one.

 

[Starmill]

But don't let the boring contextual stuff applying to Cotswold services yesterday get in the way of having a pop at GWR and IETs, will you?

I was able to comment on my experience only.

Under normal circumstances, engineering works that reduce the timetable result in longer train formations on what services do run. For whatever reason you are claiming that this did not happen on this occasion. It's not as if high demand at 1800 Saturday evening, especially in November, is somehow unprecedictable, which even you acknowledge.

Of course, there are always those who seek to defend the status quo at any cost.

I expect that even the five-car was on the quiet side past Oxford.

I expect that this is precisely right, it certainly looked it as it was departing Oxford, even accounting for those joining there.

Not that this was much comfort to those standing in the aisle leaving London Paddington.

 

[Grumbler]

This happens a hell of a lot. Once they run out of water they self lock out as the flush doesn’t work. I presume they only get filled on the depot as opposed to at major termini like HSTs. That being said it’s extremely rare I’ve been on a HST with every single toilet working. The quality of toilet facilities are much better on IETs, just a shame they very frequently run out of water.

Unless this issued is sorted, I can predict lawsuits for Disability Discrimination, as there are those who because of infirmity will not be able to last a journey without access to a lavatory.

 

[404250]

What's the problem in having a few empty carriages if it means that when use unexpectedly spikes everyone can get a seat? Better than running 5 car trains that are fine at times but regularly overcrowded and unpleasant.

 

[Railperf]

I managed 4 return trips between London and Reading yesterday - mainly Class 800's - and one HST. I was aboard the 1752 to Oxford - a 5-car IET, and that was indeed very packed - so much so that one family tried their luck heading into first class. It does appear that Saturday evening is a very busy time to travel. Whether or not this was usually a 9-car IET or an HST, the fact was it was only a 5-car and horribly overcrowded.

There still seems to be a mixture of trains with operational seat reservations. On one of the later services, a pair of 5-car units, the rear unit had paper reservations fitted to the seats, while the front unit had 3 coaches with the seat reservation lights working, but the front 2 cars had neither paper or electronic reservations.

Many of the units had toilets permanently locked out of use - which was an issue.

Actual performance of the trains was good. All of those i used were in electric mode. No major delays. I did note one pair of units running between Paddington and Reading in diesel mode. Around 2/3 to 3/4 now IET rather than HST.
The biggest issues regarding performance seems to be 'congestion' or rather more signalling and pathing issues between Paddington and Reading.
This was a Saturday - so not exactly the most taxing of days to path trains in and out of Paddington. But watching Open time trains signalling diagrams - i cannot understand why a train departing Paddington on time - has rows and rows of red lights ahead with nothing in front of it coming in or leaving. At times, the same seemed to apply on inbound services. It is not as if there were any line blockages, broken down trains, trains well out of path. Was there a signalling issue, or a shortage of signallers?

 

[jimm]

I was able to comment on my experience only.

Under normal circumstances, engineering works that reduce the timetable result in longer train formations on what services do run. For whatever reason you are claiming that this did not happen on this occasion. It's not as if high demand at 1800 Saturday evening, especially in November, is somehow unprecedictable, which even you acknowledge.

What normal circumstances might these be?

What constitutes near enough the regular hourly Saturday service on the Cotswold Line continued to operate between London and Moreton-in-Marsh yesterday, as opposed to there being a reduced timetable.

What was reduced was the number of people travelling on the route as a result of the trains not reaching Evesham, Worcester and beyond, for whom GWR yesterday extended the 18.15 to Cheltenham to continue to Worcester Foregate Street, for a Great Malvern connection. Passengers for Hereford were being directed to travel via Newport anyway, as the Great Malvern-Hereford line is also shut this weekend and next for engineering work.

Of course, there are always those who seek to defend the status quo at any cost.

As opposed to just having a go about something, without making any attempt to understand the context in which things are happening.

You haven't actually said at what point in your journey that the numbers on board started to ease. I expect one or two got off at Slough, all of 15 minutes into the journey, didn't they?

What's the problem in having a few empty carriages if it means that when use unexpectedly spikes everyone can get a seat? Better than running 5 car trains that are fine at times but regularly overcrowded and unpleasant.

Did you actually read what I posted above? Yesterday's 18.22 was not a regular occurrence, due to the line closure west of Moreton-in-Marsh. What is regular on that service is a long train, reflecting the fact that when it goes all the way to Hereford in regular circumstances, there are plenty more people using it for a long way out of London.

 

[cactustwirly]

I was able to comment on my experience only.

Under normal circumstances, engineering works that reduce the timetable result in longer train formations on what services do run. For whatever reason you are claiming that this did not happen on this occasion. It's not as if high demand at 1800 Saturday evening, especially in November, is somehow unprecedictable, which even you acknowledge.

Of course, there are always those who seek to defend the status quo at any cost.


I expect that this is precisely right, it certainly looked it as it was departing Oxford, even accounting for those joining there.

Not that this was much comfort to those standing in the aisle leaving London Paddington.

Because of the engineering works the unit was shuttling between London & Moreton-in-Marsh.
For 95% of services a 5 car IET is more than adequate.
However the 17 & 1822 departures are normally on different diagrams that usually use 9 car IETs.
But were instead on a 5 car diagram this weekend, in an ideal world the 5 car would be swapped with a 9 car, or a HST would have been used.

 

[404250]

Did you actually read what I posted above?

No I didn't bother. I'm sure in the past you've stated that many services only need a 5.

 

[Starmill]

What normal circumstances might these be?

What almost all train companies do when there's engineering work? A reduced timetable displaces rolling stock, this is then used to strengthen the amended service. You claim the opposite is the case here. I'm surprised you've never come across this concept?

What was reduced was the number of people travelling on the route

Except that the main custom is for London to Oxford and intermediate stations, as you well know, and this custom was not reduced.

You haven't actually said at what point in your journey that the numbers on board started to ease. I expect one or two got off at Slough, all of 15 minutes into the journey, didn't they?

After Reading, only a handful were still on their feet, and they probably could all have been seated and were just standing through habit (or bags on seats by those who were sat). The problem was less that there were inadequate seats and more than there's simply no space to stand on these trains, as I have tried to highlight. There isn't much to hold on to and the vestibules are very tight. It's even more difficult to stand in the aisle or vestibule than it is on a Voyager or Pendolino.

Had the train been formed of a 5 car Turbo, we would probably all have been absolutely fine. Had a portion of First Class been declassified on the 800, it would also have been fine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The layout of First Class on these does seem one of the bigger problems - it only really leaves 3 coaches of Standard (the end and the composite are both half coaches), which is inadequate for almost anything.

 

[CMRail]

What's the problem in having a few empty carriages if it means that when use unexpectedly spikes everyone can get a seat? Better than running 5 car trains that are fine at times but regularly overcrowded and unpleasant.

I assume your paying for these extra carriages?

 

[cactustwirly]

The layout of First Class on these does seem one of the bigger problems - it only really leaves 3 coaches of Standard (the end and the composite are both half coaches), which is inadequate for almost anything.

Take a look at the EMT Meridians, acres of empty first class, and a tiny amount of standard which is like a sardine can!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Take a look at the EMT Meridians, acres of empty first class, and a tiny amount of standard which is like a sardine can!

Near enough exactly the same once you take the longer Class 800 vehicles into account?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume your paying for these extra carriages?

Out of interest are they full and standing on the actual Cotswold Line, or is Reading the issue as usual? (Which as I've said before needs a WCML style solution, i.e. getting the commuters off the ICs onto dedicated fast EMU services, as unless they keep some 5-cars at Reading to strengthen, running a 9 or 10-car to be half empty past Reading is incredibly inefficient).

 

[Starmill]

They could always try cutting first class fares. The problem arises if they think their first class product is one that benefits from 'exclusivity'.

The layout of First Class on these does seem one of the bigger problems - it only really leaves 3 coaches of Standard (the end and the composite are both half coaches), which is inadequate for almost anything.

Take a look at the EMT Meridians, acres of empty first class, and a tiny amount of standard which is like a sardine can!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could always try cutting first class fares. The problem arises if they think their first class product is one that benefits from 'exclusivity'.

They could (and there's nothing "exclusive" about Class 800 1st; for the first time ever I declined, having already sat down, to cough up the 20 quid for Weekend First because it simply wasn't worth it, and moved to Standard - it *definitely* isn't worth First Anytime prices) - but there are still fewer seats in 1st even if all of them are taken, so it's no real substitute for adequate capacity.

 

[Starmill]

Out of interest are they full and standing on the actual Cotswold Line, or is Reading the issue as usual? (Which as I've said before needs a WCML style solution, i.e. getting the commuters off the ICs onto dedicated fast EMU services, as unless they keep some 5-cars at Reading to strengthen, running a 9 or 10-car to be half empty past Reading is incredibly inefficient).

The 1822 from London Paddington last night left Oxford with seats and to spare throughout. However, as it wasn't going beyond Moreton-in-Marsh that's not surprising. Still I would expect overcrowding west of Charlbury to be very unusual.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 1822 from London Paddington last night left Oxford with seats and to spare throughout. However, as it wasn't going beyond Moreton-in-Marsh that's not surprising. Still I would expect overcrowding west of Charlbury to be very unusual.

FWIW it's probably not helping having the Oxford stoppers split at Didcot (due to the ridiculous lack of a few miles of wires) - while most people would choose the fast, at least some used to take the stopper as a train in the platform is worth 10 on the departure board, and it is best to get on where the train starts for choice of seating. Mind you Chiltern are probably poaching more than ever did that.

 

[CMRail]

Out of interest are they full and standing on the actual Cotswold Line, or is Reading the issue as usual? (Which as I've said before needs a WCML style solution, i.e. getting the commuters off the ICs onto dedicated fast EMU services, as unless they keep some 5-cars at Reading to strengthen, running a 9 or 10-car to be half empty past Reading is incredibly inefficient).

Just like Cheltenham’s, Cotswolds are mainly okay for a five car after they split off at Oxford/Swindon.

People say split at Oxford but it’s a busy station and would increase journey times as well as require staff.

 

[cactustwirly]

The 1822 from London Paddington last night left Oxford with seats and to spare throughout. However, as it wasn't going beyond Moreton-in-Marsh that's not surprising. Still I would expect overcrowding west of Charlbury to be very unusual.

I've been on the 1822 back when it was a HST, was busy, but still a few seats left.
I'm very guilty of being a 'Slough' commuter on these services, saves about 10 mins if you miss the xx12/42 from Paddington

 

[cactustwirly]

FWIW it's probably not helping having the Oxford stoppers split at Didcot (due to the ridiculous lack of a few miles of wires) - while most people would choose the fast, at least some used to take the stopper as a train in the platform is worth 10 on the departure board, and it is best to get on where the train starts for choice of seating. Mind you Chiltern are probably poaching more than ever did that.

You would have to be ****ing insane to take the stopper all the way to Reading/Oxford!
I don't see why splitting it at Didcot is a problem, unless you are travelling from Pangbourne etc to Oxford where a change is a minor inconvenience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You would have to be ****ing insane to take the stopper all the way to Reading/Oxford!

People did do it, though, particularly tourists.

 

[cactustwirly]

People did do it, though, particularly tourists.

They shouldn't! The stoppers aren't even advertised as going to Oxford/Didcot/Reading at Paddington

 

[Bletchleyite]

They shouldn't! The stoppers aren't even advertised as going to Oxford/Didcot/Reading at Paddington

Who cares whether they should or shouldn't - the point is that this provided a small amount of capacity relief for the fasts.

 

[cactustwirly]

Who cares whether they should or shouldn't - the point is that this provided a small amount of capacity relief for the fasts.

The tourists that end up spending an extra hour on the train, the commuters who can't get a seat because their train is full of Oxford tourists....
They're not capacity relief for the fasts in the slightest! The stoppers are really busy already between Maidenhead/Slough - Paddington.

 

[404250]

I assume your paying for these extra carriages?

Ha ha. Would 9 instead of 5 really cost that much more to run? The original order of new trains should have been for more carriages. The extra investment would surely have been worth it long term. How many years are that supposed to last? We should be encouraging more people to be using the railway and having just enough seats on each line along with high prices won't help at all.

 

[Starmill]

The stoppers have had a very, very significant capacity enhancement now compared with then.

 

[didcotdean]

I've been on the 1822 back when it was a HST, was busy, but still a few seats left.
I'm very guilty of being a 'Slough' commuter on these services, saves about 10 mins if you miss the xx12/42 from Paddington

The Saturday evening XX22/XX20 Oxfords load up quite well in my experience - a 5 Car 800 usually to the extent of last minute people standing not by choice, although not being rammed. After Slough (and later in the evening Maidenhead) there isn't normally a probem.

 

[cactustwirly]

The stoppers have had a very, very significant capacity enhancement now compared with then.

In terms of seating capacity not so much...
A8 car 387 has a similar number of seats to a 4 car 165, if a stopper has something like 4 coaches, it can leave Paddington F&S!