Arriva Rail North DOO

[Halifaxlad]

I'm also well aware (from this forum) that the RMT refuses to recognise the role of OBS and still refers to their members as 'guards in dispute'.
.

That's a new one for me I do know that Mick Cash and the RMT don't distinguish between DOO & DCO either, regardless of whenever they'res a second member of staff on board or NOT.

 

[Gems]

Common Sense: I don't think the RMT has any since they been striking against summat Northern can't do much about, why has it taken them almost 3 years to realize this?

A lot of people now just don't care whenever their train has a guard on or not!

Its a sad state of affairs.

I was going to give you a detailed reply. Not sure it is worth the effort to be honest. Not meaning to be impolite, but there are many people on here who I may disagree with, but they put across sensible points worthy of discussion.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I was going to give you a detailed reply. Not sure it is worth the effort to be honest. Not meaning to be impolite, but there are many people on here who I may disagree with, but they put across sensible points worthy of discussion.

I think you just confirmed what I already suspect, that your'e a hardline RMT who's primary object on here is to influence things in favour of the RMT and discredit Northern.

They's a lot of people trying to do that on Social Media now as well.

Do you post on anything except this thread?

 

[Dave1987]

Dave,

I really do think that you need to read what others write before you go off in to rant mode.
I have never claimed to know 'the inner workings' so I have no idea why you are suggesting that I had.
There are Southern OBS who were guards previously even though some have resigned or retired - that's perfectly normal as far as I know. I'm also well aware (from this forum) that the RMT refuses to recognise the role of OBS and still refers to their members as 'guards in dispute'.
No doubt you'll disagree, as usual.
.

As always we disagree considerably. The loss of experience can only be considered a major loss to the railway. With your managers hat on I'm surprised you cannot see that. Then maybe that's systemic of the poor management that seems to be commonplace nowadays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As always we disagree considerably. The loss of experience can only be considered a major loss to the railway. With your managers hat on I'm surprised you cannot see that. Then maybe that's systemic of the poor management that seems to be commonplace nowadays.

Experience can go both ways. It's positive if it feeds into progression, change and modernisation. It's negative if it's "stuck in the mud" harking to the past. In the railway, in my observation, there is a lot of the latter, and that does probably need weeding out.

For instance, we see repeatedly in the Disputes and Prosecutions thread reports of staff who won't look up a ticket restriction because "it has always been like that" or "I've worked on the railway 40 years and that's how it is".

 

[Gems]

I think you just confirmed what I already suspect, that your'e a hardline RMT who's primary object on here is to influence things in favour of the RMT and discredit Northern.

They's a lot of people trying to do that on Social Media now as well.

Do you post on anything except this thread?

Again, not worth really responding to. If you bothered to read what I write you would see fully where I come from on this topic.

 

[Gems]

Experience can go both ways. It's positive if it feeds into progression, change and modernisation. It's negative if it's "stuck in the mud" harking to the past. In the railway, in my observation, there is a lot of the latter, and that does probably need weeding out.

For instance, we see repeatedly in the Disputes and Prosecutions thread reports of staff who won't look up a ticket restriction because "it has always been like that" or "I've worked on the railway 40 years and that's how it is".

Oh I remember the days when you used to tuck your fares manual under your arm on early morning commuter trains. In those days of 'Sportis' very few fares were programmed in, you had to know how to read one to survive.
Very different today. Everything you need to know is in 'Starmobile' So the question is this. "Do today's new staff have the same ability as 20 years ago.?" Some clearly do, some I would have serious reservations about. But my point is this. There is no substitute for experience. It allows you to see what someone new might not see.

 

[Robertj21a]

As always we disagree considerably. The loss of experience can only be considered a major loss to the railway. With your managers hat on I'm surprised you cannot see that. Then maybe that's systemic of the poor management that seems to be commonplace nowadays.

Well, of course, the loss of experience can often be a big problem. Again, I've never said otherwise so I'm not sure why you keep trying to put words into my mouth.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Again, not worth really responding to. If you bothered to read what I write you would see fully where I come from on this topic.

This thread was really impartial unit you came along.

Anyway you don't happen to be the same person behind the 'Train Guard' account on social media do you?

 

[northwichcat]

I think you just confirmed what I already suspect, that your'e a hardline RMT who's primary object on here is to influence things in favour of the RMT and discredit Northern.

They's a lot of people trying to do that on Social Media now as well.

Do you post on anything except this thread?

The social media posts go much further both ways than any posts on here. There's passengers calling guards lazy and workshy and for them to be sacked, while there's guards and guard supporters who start having a go at those who say the guards should remain with door duties transferring, saying they are supporting jobs being axed, calling them things like Tories and saying they support guards being sent to the dole queue. The latter group also quickly block people who point out that some passengers have had to work reduced hours or lost their jobs due to the RMT strikes. Unfortunately, there's a couple of Labour North East MPs who are supportive of the latter group.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The social media posts go much further both ways than any posts on here.

That's what I used to like about everything on here, I know they'res guards drivers and all sorts its a great mix although I think we might have been invaded by hardliners.

 

[Gems]

The social media posts go much further both ways than any posts on here. There's passengers calling guards lazy and workshy and for them to be sacked, while there's guards and guard supporters who start having a go at those who say the guards should remain with door duties transferring, saying they are supporting jobs being axed and calling them things like Tories and saying they support guards being sent to the dole queue. The latter group also quickly block people who point out that some passengers have had to work reduced hours or lost their jobs due to the RMT strikes. Unfortunately, there's a couple of Labour North East MPs who are supportive of the latter group.

Good grief. Really?

 

[Gems]

That's what I used to like about everything on here, I know they'res guards drivers and all sorts its a great mix although I think we might have been invaded by hardliners.

Is a hardliner anyone who disagrees with you by any chance? There are many people in the world, some have experience, others just a viewpoint, both coming together can be educational. But there is nothing to be gained by trying to connect with people who are abusive, so please move along.

 

[DarloRich]

That's what I used to like about everything on here, I know they'res guards drivers and all sorts its a great mix although I think we might have been invaded by hardliners.

or we have been invaded by hard line, jealous, anti staff types. Your posts are hardly even handed! Glass houses and stones spring to mind.

You seem to be accusing a sensible poster giving his or her view based on his or her experience of the job ( @Gems ) of being some rabid commie on the basis that they have a different view to you. Yet you state this board has been invaded by hard line RMT types. Really?

 

[Robertj21a]

or we have been invaded by hard line, jealous, anti staff types. Your posts are hardly even handed! Glass houses and stones spring to mind.

You seem to be accusing a sensible poster giving his or her view based on his or her experience of the job ( @Gems ) of being some rabid commie on the basis that they have a different view to you. Yet you state this board has been invaded by hard line RMT types. Really?

I do have to agree. I had Gems down as a knowledgeable, pragmatic, poster who had some useful input to the debate.

 

[woodmally]

I was going to give you a detailed reply. Not sure it is worth the effort to be honest. Not meaning to be impolite, but there are many people on here who I may disagree with, but they put across sensible points worthy of discussion.

I know the poster was blunt but they do have a point. Northern have agreed a franchise agreement. This agreement requires them to implement DOO. If they dont they are in breach of the agreement. So striking with an organisation that cannot change their view legally wont work. Northern cannot back down over this. The biggest problem is with Labour. If Corbyn and the party were fully behind the conductors they could lobby Parliament and the DFT to get the agreement changed. Yet as I stated previously there is no united front when it comes to Labour and Corbyn himself apart from the odd tweet has done nothing.

 

[Carlisle]

that is why on Saturday instead of working I will be having a day doing my thing.

After months of weekend disruption this type of statement will do very little to ifurther your cause

 

[woodmally]

I know the poster was blunt but they do have a point. Northern have agreed a franchise agreement. This agreement requires them to implement DOO. If they dont they are in breach of the agreement. So striking with an organisation that cannot change their view legally wont work. Northern cannot back down over this. The biggest problem is with Labour. If Corbyn and the party were fully behind the conductors they could lobby Parliament and the DFT to get the agreement changed. Yet as I stated previously there is no united front when it comes to Labour and Corbyn himself apart from the odd tweet has done nothing.

I will correct my previous statement slightly. I have seen Corbyn on the picket line in a Facebook picture. Still not raising it in Parliament though. It took a 16 year olds petition to get him to do that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh I remember the days when you used to tuck your fares manual under your arm on early morning commuter trains. In those days of 'Sportis' very few fares were programmed in, you had to know how to read one to survive.
Very different today. Everything you need to know is in 'Starmobile' So the question is this. "Do today's new staff have the same ability as 20 years ago.?" Some clearly do, some I would have serious reservations about. But my point is this. There is no substitute for experience. It allows you to see what someone new might not see.

That is true. I'd sort of suggest there's a difference between quality experience and someone who's dyed in the wool, bored and just doing their job as they did 30 years ago - the railway has quite a few of both.

Indeed, my (non-railway) job is based purely around experience at performing a particular task - without it I would be worth nothing in that role.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The social media posts go much further both ways than any posts on here. There's passengers calling guards lazy and workshy and for them to be sacked, while there's guards and guard supporters who start having a go at those who say the guards should remain with door duties transferring, saying they are supporting jobs being axed, calling them things like Tories and saying they support guards being sent to the dole queue. The latter group also quickly block people who point out that some passengers have had to work reduced hours or lost their jobs due to the RMT strikes. Unfortunately, there's a couple of Labour North East MPs who are supportive of the latter group.

And neither of those views are particularly helpful as, like is very often the case, the truth of the situation is somewhere between the two.

 

[Starmill]

The social media posts go much further both ways than any posts on here. There's passengers calling guards lazy and workshy and for them to be sacked, while there's guards and guard supporters who start having a go at those who say the guards should remain with door duties transferring, saying they are supporting jobs being axed, calling them things like Tories and saying they support guards being sent to the dole queue. The latter group also quickly block people who point out that some passengers have had to work reduced hours or lost their jobs due to the RMT strikes. Unfortunately, there's a couple of Labour North East MPs who are supportive of the latter group.

A passenger (not a company employee) posted to a Facebook group called New Urbanist Memes for Transit Oriented Teens that they strongly supported the role of the guard and were strongly against the proposal to change or remove their roles, but that they had reservations about supporting RMT because they thought their action was disproportionate and their rhetoric was hyperbolic and counterproductive.

They were called a bootlicker and a scab for the implicit admission that they had travelled on trains on a strike day. They were sworn at and cursed and called a Capitalist and a killer for supporting the Capitalists' power. They were told they were a strike-breaker and anti-Union, and that support for the RMT was the only honourable course. Many people suggested that they and others would be better dead than travelling by rail on strike days.

Of course this particular group is known for such extreme things. But still, it shows that the discourse can be much more extreme than this forum usually offers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do have to agree. I had Gems down as a knowledgeable, pragmatic, poster who had some useful input to the debate.

I would be inclined to agree.

 

[Carlisle]

I will correct my previous statement slightly. I have seen Corbyn on the picket line in a Facebook picture. .

Right now you must feel there’s a fair prospect of getting to vote him in very soon

 

[Bletchleyite]

A passenger (not a company employee) posted to a Facebook group called New Urbanist Memes for Transit Oriented Teens that they strongly supported the role of the guard and were strongly against the proposal to change or remove their roles, but that they had reservations about supporting RMT because they thought their action was disproportionate and their rhetoric was hyperbolic and counterproductive.

FWIW, while I have a mixed view on the specific role of Guard (though can't see how Northern, unlike Merseyrail, could practicably[1] remove the second person from all their services, even if that person ends up being an OBS), I do share the view about the RMT themselves. They are a big part of the problem, because the line they are taking is so utterly ridiculous it is unbelievable. Even ASLEF would, I believe, negotiate more sensibly.

Strong polarisation is rarely helpful.

[1] Well, there's one way they could - get on the phone to Stadler and order some low-floor FLIRTs for Manchester suburban services, which are probably the only ones where DOO with no second person ever would be genuinely viable, because Metrolink has proven that it already is viable - but only if the need for assistance could be removed. That is the fundamental difference to Merseyrail.

 

[HowardGWR]

Right now you must feel there’s a fair prospect of getting to vote him in very soon

Does woodmally live in Kensington, then?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Is a hardliner anyone who disagrees with you by any chance? There are many people in the world, some have experience, others just a viewpoint, both coming together can be educational. But there is nothing to be gained by trying to connect with people who are abusive, so please move along.

If we want to talk about who is abusive...just lets take a look at some of your posts...

The timetable is being drawn up by idiots who have never worked a train. But timetabling is a complex thing, and this is why the chaos last May commenced.

Were you his GP at the time?
Come on, your whole argument is rather silly. The idea that someone can be off work for two years and nobody wants to know why. It does not happen in the real world.

I never came on here to fall out, but that is one very short sighted and blaise comment. It lacks a lot of understanding of how the world works.

too many of their new managers don't seem to know a train from a double decker bus.

It is indeed stupid. But we are talking stupid company with managers who know little of the issues train crew have.

Big deal.

Aimed a post of a letter uploaded due being of interest.

I was going to give you a detailed reply. Not sure it is worth the effort to be honest. Not meaning to be impolite, but there are many people on here who I may disagree with, but they put across sensible points worthy of discussion.

Again, not worth really responding to. If you bothered to read what I write you would see fully where I come from on this topic.

A hardliner is someone who is very abusive, talks like they're the only one who knows what they on about, attempts to put people down and is bias and partial.

Now I've answered your question will you answer mine?

Do you post on anything except this thread?

Anyway you don't happen to be the same person behind the 'Train Guard' account on social media do you?
View attachment 55498[/QUOTE]

Although since I previously asked you and you decline would suggest that don't post anything on this forum except this threat and are indeed behind the ‘Train Guard’ account on Social Media, that is another bias arm of the RMT who started up around the same time you joined this forum interestingly!

 

[Halifaxlad]

or we have been invaded by hard line, jealous, anti staff types. Your posts are hardly even handed! Glass houses and stones spring to mind.

You seem to be accusing a sensible poster giving his or her view based on his or her experience of the job ( @Gems ) of being some rabid commie on the basis that they have a different view to you. Yet you state this board has been invaded by hard line RMT types. Really?

That's about as clear as that Im a member of the Tory Party going by my profile pic!

 

[Robertj21a]

A passenger (not a company employee) posted to a Facebook group called New Urbanist Memes for Transit Oriented Teens that they strongly supported the role of the guard and were strongly against the proposal to change or remove their roles, but that they had reservations about supporting RMT because they thought their action was disproportionate and their rhetoric was hyperbolic and counterproductive.

They were called a bootlicker and a scab for the implicit admission that they had travelled on trains on a strike day. They were sworn at and cursed and called a Capitalist and a killer for supporting the Capitalists' power. They were told they were a strike-breaker and anti-Union, and that support for the RMT was the only honourable course. Many people suggested that they and others would be better dead than travelling by rail on strike days.

Of course this particular group is known for such extreme things. But still, it shows that the discourse can be much more extreme than this forum usually offers.

.....and that's why I avoid Facebook. Too many people on there who feel that they can abuse others as much as they like, regardless of the facts of the matter. Too many who need to 'get a life'. Too many who can't string a sentence together. Too many..................(just too many !)

Anyway, let's get back on-topic

 

[DarloRich]

That's about as clear as that Im a member of the Tory Party going by my profile pic!

I am sorry but I don't understand what you are saying.

 

[Gems]

.....and that's why I avoid Facebook. Too many people on there who feel that they can abuse others as much as they like, regardless of the facts of the matter. Too many who need to 'get a life'. Too many who can't string a sentence together. Too many..................(just too many !)

Anyway, let's get back on-topic

Been a few who have tripped up on the Northern employees facebook page. Emotions can run away with people.

Interesting article today on the Northern internal site about platform extensions and ASD operation. Been trying to read between the lines of it all. ASD (Automatic selective door operation) is something I have not really come across. Sounds a very complex system, how reliable is it?