Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

The statement I read on Merseyrail did not contain any specific duties at all for the 'paid passenger' who will be carried around on future Merseyrail trains. One hopes they remember to take a book to read while at 'work'.

I think the Daily Mirror is the usual, no? (Definitely not the Sun in Liverpool).

TBH they sound about as useful as Edinburgh tram conductors (the provision of which with ticketing being off-tram is utterly, utterly bizarre).

 

[Gems]

He's set a pre

He's set a pre condition of talks is RMT suspending action though which is unlikely. The RMT will probably see this as a stalling tactic to stop strikes over Christmas so the stalemate will probably continue.

To be fair, if he can give a guarantee that this subject can be touched on with the blessing of the DFT. The strikes should be suspended. If you don't, how the hell do you talk.

 

[Gems]

The statement I read on Merseyrail did not contain any specific duties at all for the 'paid passenger' who will be carried around on future Merseyrail trains. One hopes they remember to take a book to read while at 'work'.

Could be the most sought after job in the UK. The Merseyrail agreement is baffling in the extreme

 

[Mag_seven]

He's set a pre

He's set a pre condition of talks is RMT suspending action though which is unlikely. The RMT will probably see this as a stalling tactic to stop strikes over Christmas so the stalemate will probably continue.

If the RMT always see an offer of talks as a "stalling tactic" we will never get anywhere in this dispute.

 

[Gems]

From my point of view as a guard.

If Arriva can give a guarantee that all topics can be discussed with the DFT's blessing, then the strikes have to be suspended and the talks resume. I would be furious if this did not happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could be the most sought after job in the UK. The Merseyrail agreement is baffling in the extreme

I think there's more to wait for on that one. I can see them ending up with a revenue related role if part of the funding is to close (as the staff retire, rather than immediately) some of the less busy ticket offices - Aughton Park and Town Green being two obvious ones.

Northern, of course, has a stack of unstaffed stations anyway, so revenue is an obvious way to make good use of an OBS type person. Even though there are now Penalty Fares and TVMs, huge numbers of people paying cash (or rather, paying cash when challenged only) will still be getting away with it.

 

[northwichcat]

The statement I read on Merseyrail did not contain any specific duties at all for the 'paid passenger' who will be carried around on future Merseyrail trains. One hopes they remember to take a book to read while at 'work'.

Could be the most sought after job in the UK. The Merseyrail agreement is baffling in the extreme

If you were being cynical you would think the RMT have accepted an easily disposable on-board role because they expect Merseyrail to dispense of it once the new trains are fully rolled out, then when that happens they can use it as a case study in any DOO/DCO disputes elsewhere even if it's the disputes are only over moving to driver releasing and guard closing.

 

[scrapy]

If the RMT always see an offer of talks as a "stalling tactic" we will never get anywhere in this dispute.

No but if action carries on and Northern refuse to talk we won't either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you were being cynical you would think the RMT have accepted an easily disposable on-board role because they expect Merseyrail to dispense of it once the new trains are fully rolled out, then when that happens they can use it as a case study in any DOO/DCO disputes elsewhere even if it's the disputes are only over moving to driver releasing and guard closing.

I'll admit to thinking that the Southern OBS role was exactly that, but it does seem that it is actually meeting with a fair bit of success as a whole and is likely to stay. And it has meant a second member of staff on some services which would previously not have had one.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'll admit to thinking that the Southern OBS role was exactly that, but it does seem that it is actually meeting with a fair bit of success as a whole and is likely to stay. And it has meant a second member of staff on some services which would previously not have had one.

If any evidence was needed, I don't recall any adverse postings on the forum about OBS on Southern in recent times. Even the (ex-) guards seem to have gone quiet.

 

[woodmally]

No but if action carries on and Northern refuse to talk we won't either.

We will eventually when they introduce DOO making the industrial action null and void.

 

[northwichcat]

I'll admit to thinking that the Southern OBS role was exactly that, but it does seem that it is actually meeting with a fair bit of success as a whole and is likely to stay. And it has meant a second member of staff on some services which would previously not have had one.

Southern still need people to put down ramps for disabled passengers. Merseyrail won't once the new trains are in service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Southern still need people to put down ramps for disabled passengers. Merseyrail won't once the new trains are in service.

This is true, and this is why I was uniquely in favour of "full" DOO (i.e. no second person ever other than revenue/Byelaw squads) on Merseyrail, but do not favour that on Northern.

Here's a thought - people don't like the TVMs-and-penalty-fares approach. Could an OBS type deal be justified as part of a move back to revenue being done mainly on board? I think that would be a very popular move, and it works for some of the tramways. And nobody would get away without paying, other than "de minimis" type situations like journeys between Oxford Road and Picc, which most people would just walk if it wasn't "free"?

Would also require the provision of adequate capacity for the OBS to get through, though!

 

[Carlisle]

If you were being cynical you would think the RMT have accepted an easily disposable on-board role because they expect Merseyrail to dispense of it once the new trains are fully rolled out,

If so it’d be entirely the fault of Merseyrail and their controlling politicians for agreeing a fudge rather than the whatever was considered the best long term plan

 

[Dave1987]

They're not.

Hmmm lots of stations around the network have become completely unmanned. I know of station staff who believe they are next for the chop once the DFT has finished attacking the guards. If the DFT masterplan isn't a completely staff less railway then they are doing an awful job in making staff feel valued.

 

[Dave1987]

...no, really, that's not how it works.

Ow it is! I know very well that that is how is works. We can go round and round in circles but I'm very well aware of how these systems work.

 

[Dave1987]

If any evidence was needed, I don't recall any adverse postings on the forum about OBS on Southern in recent times. Even the (ex-) guards seem to have gone quiet.

I'm not aware of any ex-guards on here who are still OBS! From what I have heard lots and lots of experience has been lost as a result of the changes with high turnover. I don't actually believe you know anything of the inner workings despite claiming your ideology as being a massive success despite the fact you probably have no idea yourself!!

 

[Dave1987]

As the WLL is my main Southern service, I tend to encounter more guards than OBSs to be fair, and most of them just do the doors and otherwise hide. Perhaps the new-recruit OBSs are indeed better.

So you want to get rid of very very experience staff and introduce new people with no experience just to fit this OBS ideology. Dear oh dear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you want to get rid of very very experience staff and introduce new people with no experience just to fit this OBS ideology. Dear oh dear.

If those staff provide poor customer service like some of the WLL guards do, yes.

If they don't, then why not let's convert them to OBS?

 

[jamesst]

If you were being cynical you would think the RMT have accepted an easily disposable on-board role because they expect Merseyrail to dispense of it once the new trains are fully rolled out, then when that happens they can use it as a case study in any DOO/DCO disputes elsewhere even if it's the disputes are only over moving to driver releasing and guard closing.

Don't forget the merseyrail agreement is in principle only, any final agreement is a long long way ahead yet

 

[Carlisle]

No but if action carries on and Northern refuse to talk we won't either.

Sounds like a formula culminating in a huge number of angry passages and eventual loss of employment with almost no sympathy from any of them either.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not aware of any ex-guards on here who are still OBS!

I am!

 

[Dave1987]

I am!

Well I know quite a few of your fellow ex guards quit.

 

[Gems]

Well I know quite a few of your fellow ex guards quit.

I would consider quitting also, Although I am high in the seniority so would probably keep the guard role, I think I would decide to call it a day. With a pension transfer that bought me ten years and my twenty I have, I could certainly go at 62 which would be somewhere about where I would be by the time Northern sorted anything out.

 

[northwichcat]

Well I know quite a few of your fellow ex guards quit.

As far as I can see @yorkie hasn't claimed to be a guard/OBS but someone who knows people who were a Southern guard and are now an OBS.

The fact that some ex-guards resigned is hardly surprising. In any industry there's a number of people who don't see their long term future in the same role/with the same employer so when a change comes about they'll see it as the prefect opportunity to move on to something else.

 

[northwichcat]

I would consider quitting also, Although I am high in the seniority so would probably keep the guard role, I think I would decide to call it a day. With a pension transfer that bought me ten years and my twenty I have, I could certainly go at 62 which would be somewhere about where I would be by the time Northern sorted anything out.

There used to be a considerable number of stand-by guards who would work services as an AFC and that didn't cause any strike action, so to me the solution would seem to be everyone is employed as a guard continues to work some services as a guard but with some guards working some services as an OBS. So hypothetically a diagram for a Buxton based guard could be

Buxton to Manchester (as guard)
Manchester to Preston (as OBS)
Preston to Manchester (as OBS)
Manchester to Chester (as guard)
Chester to Manchester (as guard)
Manchester to Buxton (as guard)

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I can see @yorkie hasn't claimed to be a guard/OBS but someone who knows people who were a Southern guard and are now an OBS.

The fact that some ex-guards resigned is hardly surprising. In any industry there's a number of people who don't see their long term future in the same role/with the same employer so when a change comes about they'll see it as the prefect opportunity to move on to something else.

Particularly if an attractive early retirement package is offered.

 

[Gems]

There used to be a considerable number of stand-by guards who would work services as an AFC and that didn't cause any strike action, so to me the solution would seem to be everyone is employed as a guard continues to work some services as a guard but with some guards working some services as an OBS. So hypothetically a diagram for a Buxton based guard could be

Buxton to Manchester (as guard)
Manchester to Preston (as OBS)
Preston to Manchester (as OBS)
Manchester to Chester (as guard)
Chester to Manchester (as guard)
Manchester to Buxton (as guard)

I would say a very sensible opinion. And the reasons why your suggestion is sensible is that by keeping everyone as a guard means Northern have the ability to run units on routes where units set up for DCO usually operate.
Of course you then have to keep the safety critical role, and is that not the crux of the fight in the first place.

I have said it so many times now. If only the DFT would butt out, common sense would prevail.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I have said it so many times now. If only the DFT would butt out, common sense would prevail.

Common Sense: I don't think the RMT has any since they been striking against summat Northern can't do much about, why has it taken them almost 3 years to realize this?

A lot of people now just don't care whenever their train has a guard on or not!

Its a sad state of affairs.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well I know quite a few of your fellow ex guards quit.

Dave,

I really do think that you need to read what others write before you go off in to rant mode.
I have never claimed to know 'the inner workings' so I have no idea why you are suggesting that I had.
There are Southern OBS who were guards previously even though some have resigned or retired - that's perfectly normal as far as I know. I'm also well aware (from this forum) that the RMT refuses to recognise the role of OBS and still refers to their members as 'guards in dispute'.
No doubt you'll disagree, as usual.
.