Arriva Rail North DOO

[Robertj21a]

As the WLL is my main Southern service, I tend to encounter more guards than OBSs to be fair, and most of them just do the doors and otherwise hide. Perhaps the new-recruit OBSs are indeed better.

My experience, and going from other reports, is that most of the OBS on Southern are indeed good.

 

[Meerkat]

it sounded like a 10 year old writing it after having had an argument with his mate at playtime.

I had the image of an angry wife/girlfriend/partner not accepting that you had to stay out with your mates....

 

[Bletchleyite]

My experience, and going from other reports, is that most of the OBS on Southern are indeed good.

I will accept your greater experience on this matter, then, as I don't use Southern services with OBS very often - but the WLL guards are definitely a very mixed bunch indeed. Some of them very much give the impression, as I said, of a London bus driver (from the era when drivers didn't do anything to do with passengers and were then uncomfortably shoe-horned into an OPO bus), or perhaps in a railway context of a non-commercial guard forced into the passenger compartment against his will. One or two even have very poor English and make mumbled, barely understandable announcements.

 

[Tomnick]

Speaking to a Northern guard though she said that the number of times she's had to get a driver to draw forward before releasing doors has increased massively in the past few years, drivers have stopped short with passenger doors hanging off the platforms due to the a combination of different stock with different carriage lengths and inexperienced drivers. There are no statistics for how often this is done because it is not considered reportable on Northern (I know it is on some TOCs) as the guard has buzzed the driver to draw forward so nothing dangerous has occurred. She said it had occurred to her at least 6 times in the past year. Obviously if driver release that check by the guard would be omitted.

Yes, there is a risk there, and of releasing the doors on the wrong side too - so ‘driver release’ is a compromise in itself.

I am sure that drivers are aware of the train length? Back in the day, and certainly with freight, they had a consist. For passenger services there are those useful blue/white, black/white (for XC) stop markers for assorted lengths of stock - certainly down here on the former L&SWR we have them. If in doubt a driver could proceed to the 'S' marker. Trying to make an issue out of something that already exists?

You can be very well aware of it and still form a previous mental model, stopping short because that’s what you’ve done every day for the rest of the week (with a shorter train). It only takes a momentary lapse.

 

[Robertj21a]

I will accept your greater experience on this matter, then, as I don't use Southern services with OBS very often - but the WLL guards are definitely a very mixed bunch indeed. Some of them very much give the impression, as I said, of a London bus driver (from the era when drivers didn't do anything to do with passengers and were then uncomfortably shoe-horned into an OPO bus), or perhaps in a railway context of a non-commercial guard forced into the passenger compartment against his will. One or two even have very poor English and make mumbled, barely understandable announcements.

The key point of course is that they are guards, not OBS. The OBS on Southern were freshly recruited, I understand, for their apparent customer-facing skills.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The key point of course is that they are guards, not OBS. The OBS on Southern were freshly recruited, I understand, for their apparent customer-facing skills.

Were all of them new recruits? I thought some did convert from guards.

 

[Robertj21a]

Were all of them new recruits? I thought some did convert from guards.

I'm only talking about the OBS recruited externally. I believe the OBS ex-guards are still referred to, by the RMT at least, as 'Guards in dispute'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm only talking about the OBS recruited externally. I believe the OBS ex-guards are still referred to, by the RMT at least, as 'Guards in dispute'.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

 

[Carlisle]

Were all of them new recruits? I thought some did convert from guards.

The railway after privatisation rather hurriedly tried to ditch its tired old BR image partly by favouring recruitment of staff it considered better educated, fresh and new to the industry over promoting old timers or recruiting their families and friends, however 20 years on today’s industrial relations don’t suggest that policy was an overall resounding success

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I'm only talking about the OBS recruited externally. I believe the OBS ex-guards are still referred to, by the RMT at least, as 'Guards in dispute'.

It's highly likely though there will be a resolution from the RMT bringing recognition to the grade as they have realised that in their words 'the company has agreed OBS' and if they want to stand a chance of recruiting non union OBS and retain recognition rights time is running out, especially seeing that a pay deal will need to be negotiated this year.

WLL, Guildford (very limited service) and Uckfield lines are operated by Selhurst who to be fair to them do not get a lot of opportunity to be customer facing, on the Uckfield line they are confined to the cab more often then not to operate SDO on the 10 car 171s.

 

[Kite159]

Sounds to me like that needs to become reportable, as there is some kind of safety or procedural issue there.

Do they need, for instance, a display in the cab of the train length?

Of course, if DOO cameras are fitted, the driver can check the train is platformed before releasing just like a guard can.

I believe some Southern drivers have little reminder pads which have numbers of carriages of the train they are driving (as that can vary from 3 to 12), similar to some Salisbury based SWR drivers with the DMUs (again can vary from 2 to 10). And the driver of the Scotrail service I took on Sunday had at least 3 Postits around the cab with "5 Cars" to remind him he was driving a 170+158 combo. It wouldn't be surprising if similar systems are not in place for other TOCs where train lengths can very and they need to remember to stop at the correct mark.

As for Northern, the problem might go away when the Pacers go away and the trains are more standard length (i.e 40 metres for a single 150). Certainly I've seen on some stations various stopping boards for the various classes they operate.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Seriously, do you think the RMT are going to come along and say. "Yes, we think you can go ahead with your plan and run 50% of trains on this route with no second person on at all" Seriously.
I have said along that some times it might be safe, and sometimes it isn't. Let Northern sort that out.

Why are hard line RMT members so adamant that Northern will be running trains all over the place with only a driver? Have you not seen their franchise agreement that also has summat about a second member of staff on board?

Surely its up to RMT and Northern to decide what this second member of staff is to be trained to do?

 

[northwichcat]

Speaking to a Northern guard though she said that the number of times she's had to get a driver to draw forward before releasing doors has increased massively in the past few years, drivers have stopped short with passenger doors hanging off the platforms due to the a combination of different stock with different carriage lengths and inexperienced drivers. There are no statistics for how often this is done because it is not considered reportable on Northern (I know it is on some TOCs) as the guard has buzzed the driver to draw forward so nothing dangerous has occurred. She said it had occurred to her at least 6 times in the past year. Obviously if driver release that check by the guard would be omitted.

Surely if there were any stats they would vary between lines. Almost all Mid-Cheshire services are booked as 2 car and the chance of a 2 car train stopping at a Mid-Cheshire station with a set of doors off the end of the platform is as likely as Chris Grayling getting a part time role as a guard to help his understanding of the role. At Northwich and Lostock Gralam there are sometimes issues with trains not stopping in the right place for the hump to be properly lined up with a set of doors but I think part of the problem there is a partly hidden stop board for Chester bound trains at Northwich and 6 different stop boards at Northwich and Lostock in the Manchester direction. Even with 6 different stop boards it doesn't cover every possible doubled up formation which could be used e.g. if a 142+156 is used does the driver stop where it says 4 car 142, 4 car 150 or 4 car 156? The first option might result in the rear of the 156 being off the end of the platform, while the last option might result in the hump being useless. Of course the solution to that is to raise the platform height properly instead of just providing a hump.

 

[Gems]

Why are hard line RMT members so adamant that Northern will be running trains all over the place with only a driver? Have you not seen their franchise agreement that also has summat about a second member of staff on board?

Surely its up to RMT and Northern to decide what this second member of staff is to be trained to do?

Because Northern managers have said it. I have heard it with my own ears, that is why on Saturday instead of working I will be having a day doing my thing.

 

[Carlisle]

Because Northern managers have said it. I have heard it with my own ears, that is why on Saturday instead of working I will be having a day doing my thing.

Everything was up for negotiations, but as almost everyone on here probably knows by now, the RMT believed, as its done regularly under the current regime , that its needs were better served by going almost straight into dispute.

 

[Gems]

Everything was up for negotiations, but as almost everyone on here im sure knows by now, the RMT believed as its often done previously, that its needs were better served by going almost straight into dispute.

Everything wasn't up for negotiation at all. Everything was up for negotiation within the boundaries of what the DFT and Arriva wanted. What they wanted was the RMT to come along and embrace their ideas and say how wonderful they were. Well not all are. I personally think that was a rather silly and childish approach. But we have some very silly and childish managers in charge, so no surprise there. "We want the RMT to help develop our plans to run trains with no second person onboard at all in some cases" Oh please, can we be realistic. So where are Arriva's plans? Do you know them? Do I? They have come up with nothing, nothing at all, just ideas with no substance. Like everything else they have tinkered with it has led to adject failure. Just how do you discuss ideas when non seem to exist? Did they want us to think for them, all because too many of their new managers don't seem to know a train from a double decker bus.
The RMT are not perfect, but the RMT can only create industrial action whilst they have the support of the staff. The staff are not in their pockets, We rejected the RMT's support for the harmonisation deal, and we rejected the industrial action over holiday arrangements some years ago.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I'm not taking sides, but the widespread perception is that neither side is coming up with anything.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not taking sides, but the widespread perception is that neither side is coming up with anything.

Even if you look at it from a neutral view it seems the RMT won't accept anything within the terms set out by the Northern franchise agreement (reportedly not even the kind of deal they just agreed with Abellio for the Anglia franchise.) If the rumour that the Northern MD is going to talk to DfT to see if changing the terms is an option is true then it sounds like Northern are doing more to try and resolve the dispute than the RMT are, especially considering Mick Cash called it a 'scandal' that Northern were talking to DfT about changing other terms in the franchise agreement (which mainly relate to delays in Network Rail infrastructure projects) but called for the franchise terms to be changed to suit their demands!

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Perhaps inexperienced managers are partly to blame I agree. In a lot of industries though however change and restructuring is a regular occurrence and unions are pretty focused on securing jobs and then terms and conditions and working conditions instead of battling over getting a guarantee of having a particular grade and title. The RMT position constantly changes and evolves first it was to guarantee a guard on every service, however they have now said they must have control over the doors as well because a minority of members think who pushes the close button is more important than anything else. When in fact having a customer focused guard on board is what the public really wants and they are fully trained and prepared in an emergency.

 

[a_c_skinner]

When in fact having a customer focused guard on board is what the public really wants and they are fully trained and prepared in an emergency.

Nicely summed up.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm not taking sides, but the widespread perception is that neither side is coming up with anything.

There's not really much point. Arriva has already offered 'No redundancies' but I don't recall the RMT actually offering anything at all - it would flout their blanket insistence of a safety-ctitical guard on every train.

 

[Tomnick]

When in fact having a customer focused guard on board is what the public really wants and they are fully trained and prepared in an emergency.

But, if they're there anyway, and they're fully trained, and they have to position themselves at a set of doors at each station anyway (to check for wheelchair users) then what is to be gained by not having them "push the close button"?

(of course, "pushing the button" isn't the important part of the process - carrying out the train safety check is. It's disappointing to see those who should know better trying to trivialise it to that extent)

 

[OxtedSignaller]

But, if they're there anyway, and they're fully trained, and they have to position themselves at a set of doors at each station anyway (to check for wheelchair users) then what is to be gained by not having them "push the close button"?

(of course, "pushing the button" isn't the important part of the process - carrying out the train safety check is. It's disappointing to see those who should know better trying to trivialise it to that extent)

There is no incentive though from Northern and other TOCs perspective who of course believe DOO is 100% safe to even offer to retain to keep the second member of staff as a fully qualified Guard. As this has been offered by SWR, and I know they won't gurantee a Guard on every service as they want the flexibility to run in disruption without and the RMT are not happy with this either. But surely it's in the Guards best interest to retain their competencies. It's all ideological more than anything, it's not just traincrew it's the entire railway everyone is thinking 10 years ahead. The world will be a difference place than maybe better perhaps worse. Let's focus now and on the immediate future (the next 5 years).

 

[Carlisle]

So where are Arriva's plans? Do you know them? Do I? They have come up with nothing, nothing at all,
.

Having met one or two of the old northern managers I’m sure your correct in your assumption that some clearly weren’t up to the job, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that the RMT could’ve spent the last year in negotiation rather than on strike. At least you’d then have all been much clearer about what the actual proposals amounted to, even if you’d ultimately had to come on here and explain that the union had later rejected them and gone into dispute

 

[Bletchleyite]

But, if they're there anyway, and they're fully trained, and they have to position themselves at a set of doors at each station anyway (to check for wheelchair users) then what is to be gained by not having them "push the close button"

Approximately 10 seconds per station stop[1], which makes a difference on the likes of the Hadfields (and Merseyrail, where as I've mentioned before simply fitting hustle alarms required the addition of 2 minutes to the Ormskirk-Liverpool running time).

[1] The time taken to close the local door and "buzz buzz, buzz buzz" is about 10 seconds.

 

[Gems]

Latest internal feedback from David Brown is that he is asking the RMT for ACAS talks again. The line is to discuss ideas around the Merseyrail, Anglia, agreement. As far as the RMT'S stance has been previously, there was little point since the DFT wouldn't allow such a deal.
Has things changed since last week when they went running back to the DFT? We shall see.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Latest internal feedback from David Brown is that he is asking the RMT for ACAS talks again. The line is to discuss ideas around the Merseyrail, Anglia, agreement. As far as the RMT'S stance has been previously, there was little point since the DFT wouldn't allow such a deal.
Has things changed since last week when they went running back to the DFT? We shall see.

The Merseyrail deal is OBS, isn't it?

 

[Gems]

The Merseyrail deal is OBS, isn't it?

Not sure. But in David Brown communication he wants to explore keeping staff safety critical. This has been the sticking point. If there has been movement, we may be on to something. Let us wait and see.

 

[HowardGWR]

The Merseyrail deal is OBS, isn't it?

The statement I read on Merseyrail did not contain any specific duties at all for the 'paid passenger' who will be carried around on future Merseyrail trains. One hopes they remember to take a book to read while at 'work'.

 

[scrapy]

He's set a pre

Latest internal feedback from David Brown is that he is asking the RMT for ACAS talks again. The line is to discuss ideas around the Merseyrail, Anglia, agreement. As far as the RMT'S stance has been previously, there was little point since the DFT wouldn't allow such a deal.
Has things changed since last week when they went running back to the DFT? We shall see.

He's set a pre condition of talks is RMT suspending action though which is unlikely. The RMT will probably see this as a stalling tactic to stop strikes over Christmas so the stalemate will probably continue.