Southern 313s and 508s

[87015]

I've been told by one of my sources that FCC are now no longer getting 313s and before anyoone askes what's coming instead, the answer is nothing.
Seems strange to me though, Southern are only taking a few which leaves quite a lot in limbo but knowing the DAFT, it's not really that usual!

First not wanting to get the chequebook out apparently...

 

[Aictos]

First not wanting to get the chequebook out apparently...

Can you blame them? Just think of the cost which First have to do to bring them up to FCC standards ie high back seats, refurbished interiors etc...

I think one of the reasons for the 313s not coming over is also because some of the current services which run as 6 cars can easily run as 3 cars so seeing as the capacity is there, I think FCC took a look at the stock and realise they didn't actually need the extra 313s.

But the other thing as well is there's no point in having the extra stock if you don't have the infrastructure to deal with them ie the signalling on the NCL to be upgraded and the upgrading of the Up Goods Line to passenger standards between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park will have to happen first before any increase in services is possible, don't forgot the new platforms as well at Hornsey and Harringay which when completed will be able to keep services from Welwyn and Hertford separate as there are some services which are limited stops in the peaks.

Not only this but it will help increase the capacity in the already congested section between Alexandra Palace and Kings Cross/Moorgate.

Still, I can't wait to see the backlash from the Southern passengers when they see their 377s replaced with 313s,

 

[paul1609]

Can you blame them? Just think of the cost which First have to do to bring them up to FCC standards ie high back seats, refurbished interiors etc...

I think one of the reasons for the 313s not coming over is also because some of the current services which run as 6 cars can easily run as 3 cars so seeing as the capacity is there, I think FCC took a look at the stock and realise they didn't actually need the extra 313s.

But the other thing as well is there's no point in having the extra stock if you don't have the infrastructure to deal with them ie the signalling on the NCL to be upgraded and the upgrading of the Up Goods Line to passenger standards between Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park will have to happen first before any increase in services is possible, don't forgot the new platforms as well at Hornsey and Harringay which when completed will be able to keep services from Welwyn and Hertford separate as there are some services which are limited stops in the peaks.

Not only this but it will help increase the capacity in the already congested section between Alexandra Palace and Kings Cross/Moorgate.

Still, I can't wait to see the backlash from the Southern passengers when they see their 377s replaced with 313s,

Alledgedly its their 171s that are being replaced with 313s or 508s!
http://www.southernrailway.com/news/east-coastway-timetable-consultation/

 

[MCR247]

deleted

 

[jon0844]

What's going to happen to the plan to run the stopper serves at 15 minute intervals then? I thought that was being partially funded by TfL?

Is it that FCC isn't paying its bit, or that TfL pulled out, or that TfL may be planning to take over as London Overground - so FCC can't be bothered to do anything as they won't even be running any future services on the inner-suburban routes (bar the stations served by the semi-fast trains, like Potters Bar, WGC, Hatfield etc).

Elaine was really keen on the idea and it was talked about way back in 2006 - so why the change of mind now? Different priorities?

 

[Aictos]

Also been told by my source that FCC are no longer getting the promised 10 Class 321s, instead we're only having the 6 that we've got.
So personally, I feel FCC got screwed good and proper especially as 401 to 410 were allocated to us!

Don't know what's going to happen to 407 to 409 as they were supposed to be kept at Eastleigh until December earmarked for us with 410 with LM a bit longer.

 

[Pumbaa]

Also been told by my source that FCC are no longer getting the promised 10 Class 321s, instead we're only having the 6 that we've got.
So personally, I feel FCC got screwed good and proper especially as 401 to 410 were allocated to us!

You got screwed by the people 'up there' being too protective with their pennies, and not wanting to commit to extra promises for taking the extra units on. And as TOCs go, FCC is bloody lucky with it's situation for stock. Go further north up the MML, and spread out from there!

Now where do these extra Bins go? East Anglia must be getting pretty full by now!

 

[Fincra5]

Alledgedly its their 171s that are being replaced with 313s or 508s!
http://www.southernrailway.com/news/east-coastway-timetable-consultation/

Deffinately not the 171s that are being replaced, how would Southern operate trains to ashford on the none electrified line??????

The 313 and 508 new seating will come from the connex spec Cl 377/3s that they will replace, so at least they will be fairly comfortable. And the interiors will be bought up to very modern standard, they will look brand new on the inside, not 30yo

 

[MCR247]

Deffinately not the 171s that are being replaced, how would Southern operate trains to ashford on the none electrified line??????

The 313 and 508 new seating will come from the connex spec Cl 377/3s that they will replace, so at least they will be fairly comfortable. And the interiors will be bought up to very modern standard, they will look brand new on the inside, not 30yo

Yes, one 171, read the consultation and you'll find out

 

[Aictos]

You got screwed by the people 'up there' being too protective with their pennies, and not wanting to commit to extra promises for taking the extra units on. And as TOCs go, FCC is bloody lucky with it's situation for stock. Go further north up the MML, and spread out from there!

Now where do these extra Bins go? East Anglia must be getting pretty full by now!

Yes but we got allocated 10 321s which were supposed to create more capacity by freeing up 365s to form longer trains resulting in more seats for all, not only is this at risk but considering the money and time spent on refurbishing the units for FCC and training the drivers, why did they bother for what will be a small non-uniform fleet, which is half the size of the existing 317 fleet!
How many more 321s does NXEA need? They're already getting 379s which will free up existing stock to bolster existing services plus they've already been allocated about 20 or so 321s!

What FCC should have done is leave the 321s for other TOCs, transfer the small 317 fleet to NXEA or even Northern and instead ask for 22 377s but AC only which would be suitable for the GN.

 

[DjU]

Yes but we got allocated 10 321s which were supposed to create more capacity by freeing up 365s to form longer trains resulting in more seats for all, not only is this at risk but considering the money and time spent on refurbishing the units for FCC and training the drivers, why did they bother for what will be a small non-uniform fleet, which is half the size of the existing 317 fleet!
How many more 321s does NXEA need? They're already getting 379s which will free up existing stock to bolster existing services plus they've already been allocated about 20 or so 321s!

What FCC should have done is leave the 321s for other TOCs, transfer the small 317 fleet to NXEA or even Northern and instead ask for 22 377s but AC only which would be suitable for the GN.

And? They may of been allocated 10 but if FCC don't want to have them /to pay for them, then thats a moot point. c2c were 'allocated' 10 of them but they turned them down.

There has always been a slight air of hesitance from FCC about the second batch of 5 321s.

 

[Minstral25]

Assuming the 313's get the interiors from the 377/3's - what will the 377/3's have in return - please don't say the horrible green 3+2 interiors from the 377/4's or the really horrible 3+2 ones in the later series 377/1's.

I must say I really appreciate the occaisional 2+2 train coming through Redhill so we can get comfortable seats and enjoy the ride - although its a bit unfair on the guys who have to stand because of it!!

 

[Aictos]

What's going to happen to the plan to run the stopper serves at 15 minute intervals then? I thought that was being partially funded by TfL?

Is it that FCC isn't paying its bit, or that TfL pulled out, or that TfL may be planning to take over as London Overground - so FCC can't be bothered to do anything as they won't even be running any future services on the inner-suburban routes (bar the stations served by the semi-fast trains, like Potters Bar, WGC, Hatfield etc).

Elaine was really keen on the idea and it was talked about way back in 2006 - so why the change of mind now? Different priorities?

How far would LOROL go ie Letchworth via Hertford as currently do or terminate all Letchworths at Stevenage after building a new platform?

Getting Letchworth passengers to change for Cambridge or Royston services...

 

[paul1609]

Assuming the 313's get the interiors from the 377/3's - what will the 377/3's have in return - please don't say the horrible green 3+2 interiors from the 377/4's or the really horrible 3+2 ones in the later series 377/1's.

I must say I really appreciate the occaisional 2+2 train coming through Redhill so we can get comfortable seats and enjoy the ride - although its a bit unfair on the guys who have to stand because of it!!

I dont think thats very likely as according to the consultation the "new" 3 car trains for the East Coastway will have greater capacity than the existing trains. I dont think the existing chapman seats meet the current safety requirements. Whilst they have grandfather rights in the 377s I dont think they could be moved to a different class.

 

[MCR247]

But dont the 377/5s have them?

 

[jon0844]

How far would LOROL go ie Letchworth via Hertford as currently do or terminate all Letchworths at Stevenage after building a new platform?

I knew it was WGC on 'our side' but don't know about the Hertford Loop - but I presume it would be whatever is covered by (mainly) the 313s.

I'd then expect the semi-fast and outer suburban services, using the ECML exclusively, would remain as FCC.

So, some stations like Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield and all stations to Cambridge etc would be served by FCC, while all the others would be LOROL only.

I don't even know if this will ever happen, but I would expect to see some major changes to the staffing of the stations served by London Overground - as I am sure they have a rule that stations are manned whenever trains run. I wonder if that would include stations served by FCC that could run later?

Now that FCC isn't getting the 313s, I guess we won't even see the service increase - unless they know something we don't with regards to any announcement that they'd be giving up the inner suburban lines.

 

[Aictos]

I knew it was WGC on 'our side' but don't know about the Hertford Loop - but I presume it would be whatever is covered by (mainly) the 313s.

I'd then expect the semi-fast and outer suburban services, using the ECML exclusively, would remain as FCC.

So, some stations like Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield and all stations to Cambridge etc would be served by FCC, while all the others would be LOROL only.

I don't even know if this will ever happen, but I would expect to see some major changes to the staffing of the stations served by London Overground - as I am sure they have a rule that stations are manned whenever trains run. I wonder if that would include stations served by FCC that could run later?

Now that FCC isn't getting the 313s, I guess we won't even see the service increase - unless they know something we don't with regards to any announcement that they'd be giving up the inner suburban lines.

Well the Inner Suburban services run Moorgate/Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City/Hertford North and either Letchworth Garden City or Stevenage via Hertford North.

It's not a big issue giving the Welwyn Inner Suburban services to LOROL as they can easily terminate there as FCC slow services can pick up the stops north of the station ie the services which are all stations from Peterborough or Cambridge to Hatfield then Potters Bar, Finsbury Park and London Kings Cross but with the Hertford Loop because the route doesn't get the same type of connections that Welwyn Garden City has, trains can't really teminate there and have though services to Peterborough or Cambridge.

It's a shame really as it means trains from Hertford have to carry onto Stevenage in order to provide a link with trains to the North as you have to remember you also have Watton at Stone between the two.

So in all, if LOROL did take over I think they would be looking at taking over the majority of the stations between Moorgate/Kings Cross and Letchworth via both Welwyn and Hertford.

One service that most certainly could be run by LOROL with no issues is the Wimbledon Loop services on the Thameslink as it's practically a self contained service.

Still it's interesting to see what happens next between LOROL and FCC...

 

[paul1609]

But dont the 377/5s have them?

No the 377/5s have the same seating as the 377/4s it has a slightly higher back, not sure who makes them but commuters call them austroturf seating because they are a lot harder than the seats in the original 377/3s and /1s. Someunits have a mix of seat types

 

[Fincra5]

Assuming the 313's get the interiors from the 377/3's - what will the 377/3's have in return - please don't say the horrible green 3+2 interiors from the 377/4's or the really horrible 3+2 ones in the later series 377/1's.

I must say I really appreciate the occaisional 2+2 train coming through Redhill so we can get comfortable seats and enjoy the ride - although its a bit unfair on the guys who have to stand because of it!!

Given that the 377/3s will br metro working in south London, they will be fitted with the high density 3+2 seats, to maximise capasity on busy trains.

 

[fgwrich]

Given that the 377/3s will br metro working in south London, they will be fitted with the high density 3+2 seats, to maximise capasity on busy trains.

Oh the Sandpaper / Astroturf seats then...:roll:

 

[Fincra5]

I'm afraid so ...

 

[paul1609]

Given that the 377/3s will br metro working in south London, they will be fitted with the high density 3+2 seats, to maximise capasity on busy trains.

Apparently Southern dont expect the 10 car metro working to start this franchise. It requires the platforms to be extended at an awful lot of suburban stations. TFL have just had their budget cut by Boris and Network Rail are skint. Apparently its now a medium term aspiration.

 

[Fincra5]

Apparently Southern dont expect the 10 car metro working to start this franchise. It requires the platforms to be extended at an awful lot of suburban stations. TFL have just had their budget cut by Boris and Network Rail are skint. Apparently its now a medium term aspiration.

Although the new franchise states 10car services begining 2011.

 

[Minstral25]

Assuming it does happen. How are they going to make enough 10 car trains with the 377/3's for a good 10 car service on Suburban lines. There are only 28 3-car 377's so that's a maximum of 14 sets (2x 377/3 and a 377/4) and I guess at least 1 set down a day for maintenance so just 13. How many sets are there currently on suburban services now?

Perhaps they could convert some of the 377/4's to 5 car units by taking 377/1 trailers out and reclassifying to 377/3. London suburban trains then become 2x5 car 377, easy to split at places like Purley for Tattenham/Caterham trains. And then some outer suburban trains could become 6 car (2x 377/3) rather than current crowded 4-car trains and then become 12-car for the peaks - rather than stuffed to the gunnels 8-car's. Improvement all round?

Its just a though but how feasible is that? Maybe a bit advanced for the DfT

 

[MCR247]

Its a good idea, and I like it Minstral25 but one problem is, /4s frequentley operate London - Portsmouth & Bognor where trains can be 12 coaches, with 4 going to Portsmouth and the rest to Bognor, so by making some 5 car would be awkward in this case

 

[Adamtorbyaexpres]

313s and 508s would look quite nice in that livery though....

 

[SouthEastern-465]

313s and 508s would look quite nice in that livery though....

Quite true.

 

[Fincra5]

Quite true.

I like it .

The green between the carriages will stick out less, most likely, like the 455s.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I like it .

The green between the carriages will stick out less, most likely, like the 455s.

I think they'll look brilliant on the 313s and 508s and as you said quite similar to the 455s.

 

[fgwrich]

I think they'll look brilliant on the 313s and 508s and as you said quite similar to the 455s.

well...as i said quite a while ago...i just based it upon the 456...so we'll see how it turns out in the next year or so...