Southern 313s and 508s

[90019]

Clapham - Willesden is a mixture of AC/DC. 508s could run Clapham Junction - Sheperd's Bush, but there'd be no way of getting them back to Willesden depot!

Get them up to top speed then hope it's fast enough to get to the next section of 3rd rail?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Correct me if im wrong 508s run on DC Power too.

They only run on DC power.

 

[MCR247]

Yes, DC only!

 

[Aictos]

Just take a look at my idiot guide I posted earlier which explains very briefly if AC or DC is used!

 

[Fincra5]

Been a while but i was informed on tuesday that Southern have 2 class 313s in a depot in london (not selhurst), i just can't remember the name . I'm told they will be maintained in that London depot, which is interesting given they will operate on the southcoast :roll:

So some late night ECS runs or odd services i reckon.

 

[Voyager 2093]

Most Probably they will run from Viccy too on some odd workings and btw 508s run on AC Power too hence the reason why they were run on the NLL which is partly AC and partly DC.

 

[90019]

and btw 508s run on AC Power too

And how exactly do they manage this without having a pantograph?

 

[73110]

and btw 508s run on AC Power too

Really? How do they do that on Merseyrail?

 

[Fincra5]

Class 508s are DC only, hence they have no pantograph. From what i can recall 508s operated on the Watford DC and Clapham Jnc-Willesden Jnc lines. Which are DC only.

They will most likely run ECS when they require maintenence up in london.

 

[DjU]

Most Probably they will run from Viccy too on some odd workings and btw 508s run on AC Power too hence the reason why they were run on the NLL which is partly AC and partly DC.

No.

You've already been corrected and someone also wrote a simple guide, yet your still peddling this nonsense.

508's have NO pantograph, 508's are DC only units, 508's work on 3rd rail routes only!

From what i can recall 508s operated on the Watford DC and Clapham Jnc-Willesden Jnc lines. Which are DC only.

The 508's only were used on the Watford DC line. The WLL isn't completely DC, it changes to AC at the North Pole Depot north of Shepherds Bush.

 

[Voyager 2093]

Ok forgive me lol

No 508s did visit the NLL picture evidence is on wikpedia.

Just before my next post becomes visable I am mistaken about the photo but Im sure I have seen 508s on the NLL.

 

[Aictos]

No.

You've already been corrected and someone also wrote a simple guide, yet your still peddling this nonsense.

508's have NO pantograph, 508's are DC only units, 508's work on 3rd rail routes only!

I posted a simple guide which I previously posted on the 11th October explaining the very basics of the specific unit involved and if it runs off the 3rd rail aka DC, 25kV OHL aka AC or both.

I've quoted my post below, just would be nice if people took the time to look before going off on inaccurate information despite being told otherwise.

Some of the members here do know what they are talking about, so please bear that in mind.

Right time for a little how to recognise your inner suburban traction lesson:


1.) Class 313

Class 313s are formed of 3 cars only which take power from both 25 kV AC Overhead and 750 V DC 3rd rail.


2.) Class 314

Class 314s are formed of 3 cars only which can only take power from 25 kV AC Overhead.


3.) Class 315

Class 315s are formed of 4 cars only which can only take power from 25 kV AC Overhead.


4.) Class 507

Class 507s are formed of 3 cars only which can only take power from 750 V DC 3rd rail.


5.) Class 508

Class 508ss are formed of 3 cars only which can only take power from 750 V DC 3rd rail.

Once again, I hope members take notice of the post I've quoted above - I cannot post what routes they use as I'm not too familiar with workings with some of the classes involved.

 

[MCR247]

Right time for a little how to recognise your inner suburban traction lesson:


1.) Class 313

Class 313s are formed of 3 cars only which take power from both 25 kV AC Overhead and 750 V DC 3rd rail.
Currently with FCC and Overground until 378s in service, so might go onto South Coast with SN

2.) Class 314

Class 314s are formed of 3 cars only which can only take power from 25 kV AC Overhead.
Work Glasgow area services


3.) Class 315

Class 315s are formed of 4 cars only which can only take power from 25 kV AC Overhead.

NXEA on Shenfield metro and suburban workings

4.) Class 507

Class 507s are formed of 3 cars only which can only take power from 750 V DC 3rd rail.
MerseyRail

5.) Class 508

Class 508ss are formed of 3 cars only which can only take power from 750 V DC 3rd rail
MerseyRail. Overgroundand SouthEastern in store .

Hope you dont mind me just editing your post ajax to put routes in

 

[Aictos]

Hope you dont mind me just editing your post ajax to put routes in

Yes that's not a problem for me, thank you.

 

[gchst]

They are due to arrive to brighton depot when all the 378s are in service.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

And how exactly do they manage this without having a pantograph?

I think he means they run on 3RD rail but that is converted to AC in the train to power it and give it a smoother ride than DC?

 

[90019]

I think he means they run on 3RD rail but that is converted to AC in the train to power it and give it a smoother ride than DC?

How would that give it a smoother ride :?

 

[Voyager 2093]

The way the Train takes in power does not effect the smoothness of the ride, well in one case it does. The Maglev Train in Japan which runs on elevated light rails but that has no relevance here.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

How would that give it a smoother ride :?

I heard somewhere that AC gives a smoother ride than DC?

 

[Drsatan]

I heard somewhere that AC gives a smoother ride than DC?

By that, you probably mean that AC trains have a smoother ride in that they avoid being "gapped": this is when a DC train loses contact with the third rail when passing over a series of points. Most EMUs don't have this problem as they have more than one collector shoe but the 71s and the Southern Railway's prototype electric locos could, and would, get "gapped" requiring the services of a steam or diesel loco to drag the loco onto a section of 3rd rail track.

 

[Oswyntail]

There was a picture in the latest Rail of the two Overground 508/3s being taken to Eastleigh for storage

 

[O L Leigh]

I think he means they run on 3RD rail but that is converted to AC in the train to power it and give it a smoother ride than DC?

No, they don't even do that.

In fact what happens to the juice on a unit running of 25kV AC OLE is that it is first stepped down to the required voltages and then rectified from AC to DC for all power circuits except the 240V AC "housekeeping" circuits. Even Desiros, Electrostars and Networkers with their 3-phase asynchronous traction motors do this and have to then convert the DC power back to AC again by using inverters. Units running directly from 750V DC CRE (that's 3rd rail to you) therefore have no need to convert the power to AC.

As for what makes a smooth ride, that is down to the characteristics of the traction motors and traction control electronics and the reliability of the power supply, and nothing at all to do with AC or DC power.

O L Leigh

 

[SouthEastern-465]

No, they don't even do that.

In fact what happens to the juice on a unit running of 25kV AC OLE is that it is first stepped down to the required voltages and then rectified from AC to DC for all power circuits except the 240V AC "housekeeping" circuits. Even Desiros, Electrostars and Networkers with their 3-phase asynchronous traction motors do this and have to then convert the DC power back to AC again by using inverters. Units running directly from 750V DC CRE (that's 3rd rail to you) therefore have no need to convert the power to AC.

As for what makes a smooth ride, that is down to the characteristics of the traction motors and traction control electronics and the reliability of the power supply, and nothing at all to do with AC or DC power.

O L Leigh

Thanks for explaining quite interesting to read too

 

[paul1609]

No, they don't even do that.

In fact what happens to the juice on a unit running of 25kV AC OLE is that it is first stepped down to the required voltages and then rectified from AC to DC for all power circuits except the 240V AC "housekeeping" circuits. Even Desiros, Electrostars and Networkers with their 3-phase asynchronous traction motors do this and have to then convert the DC power back to AC again by using inverters. Units running directly from 750V DC CRE (that's 3rd rail to you) therefore have no need to convert the power to AC.

As for what makes a smooth ride, that is down to the characteristics of the traction motors and traction control electronics and the reliability of the power supply, and nothing at all to do with AC or DC power.

O L Leigh

Sorry thats not correct all DC units since after the class 319/320/325s have had ac motors the power is converted from dc to ac using invertors which make the distinctive noise. Speed is controlled by varying the frequency (and voltage) of the supply to the motors

 

[O L Leigh]

Read it again. That was what I said.

O L Leigh

 

[paul1609]

Read it again. That was what I said.

O L Leigh

No its not! You said" Units running directly from 750V DC CRE (that's 3rd rail to you) therefore have no need to convert the power to AC." Wheras a desiro, electrostar etc running from dc DO convert the power to ac, that is what the invertor is for. They are variable frequency, variable voltage ac motors. If you fed them directly 750 vdc they would go bang.

 

[O L Leigh]

I was referring to the Cl508's specifically (though it also applies to Cl455's, Cl319's and every other class of DC EMU that pre-date the Networkers), which appeared to be causing some confusion. Sorry if this wasn't clear.

I am aware of what Desiros, etc, do with the power for the traction motors.

O L Leigh

 

[RobShipway]

The smoothness of the ride would be down to the settings for the suspension on the bogies of the train, regardless whether it is powered by ac or dc power?

 

[O L Leigh]

Partly. However it also has a lot to do with power take-up. Some units are very jerky and can transmit some fairly hefty jolts through the train when the driver opens the taps, even when he's trying to be careful.

O L Leigh

 

[Aictos]

I've been told by one of my sources that FCC are now no longer getting 313s and before anyoone askes what's coming instead, the answer is nothing.
Seems strange to me though, Southern are only taking a few which leaves quite a lot in limbo but knowing the DAFT, it's not really that usual!

 

[RobShipway]

Partly. However it also has a lot to do with power take-up. Some units are very jerky and can transmit some fairly hefty jolts through the train when the driver opens the taps, even when he's trying to be careful.

O L Leigh

Thanks for the info.