Arriva Trains Wales - it’s the final countdown

[dorsetdesiro]

I'm sure the English stations will also get the full TfW treatment as the "Borders" part of the W&B name refers to the places, falling within England, along the border which are obviously not part of Wales.

This will be similar as with ATW as English stations like Chester, Shrewsbury & Hereford having ATW colours and styles but lacking Welsh language in most parts. I reckon there will be TfW colours and styles including the large T logo likely with less Welsh visible. The Welsh language probably will only be visible on the trains themselves.

I am used to seeing ATW stations including Welsh language alongside the English translation however it can be a bit strange to see ATW stations in England without the Welsh, bit like a missing tooth!

 

[dorsetdesiro]

We all know the new franchise will be managed by KAW but this will be most likely be TfW branded as the general public will only see the TfW brand in many parts also hear TfW mentioned in station announcements?

Should we call the new franchise KAW or TfW? Or these are interchangable?

 

[krus_aragon]

We all know the new franchise will be managed by KAW but this will be most likely be TfW branded as the general public will only see the TfW brand in many parts also hear TfW mentioned in station announcements?

Should we call the new franchise KAW or TfW? Or these are interchangable?

I suppose a ready comparison is that of TfL and London Overground. How interchangeable are they, I wonder?

Don't forget that there's also the franchise name: Wales & Borders.

 

[craigybagel]

If it's any comfort, those of us who'll have to announce the company name on a regular basis still haven't been told what we'll actually be announcing yet - but I'm sure that will be cleared up in time.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Probably "1600 Transport for Wales service to Cardiff Central" or any mention of KAW/TfW is omitted therefore "1600 Wales & Borders service to Cardiff Central"

 

[dorsetdesiro]

The TfW brand may be used universally like an umbrella brand which for announcements, both on the South Wales Metro and Wales & Borders, that "Transport for Wales service to" will be heard

Or

"South Wales Metro service to" to be heard on the Metro and "Wales and Borders service to" for W&B

 

[mmh]

Probably "1600 Transport for Wales service to Cardiff Central" or any mention of KAW/TfW is omitted therefore "1600 Wales & Borders service to Cardiff Central"

Or even better, "1600 service to Cardiff Central". Not holding my breath waiting for that though.

Hopefully KAW will never been seen or heard of in public. If branding matters, don't confuse people with meaningless company names. When London Overground was run by a company called "LOROL" (London Overground Rail Operations Ltd) it was really unhelpful to have staff of *other* TOCs announce things like "change here for Laurel services". "Govia Thameslink Railway" is another one that should be shielded from passengers but isn't - none of the trains say that on the side of them, so why should anyone care?

I'd prefer Wales & Borders personally, admittedly with a slight bias because I dislike how every transport agency thinks they must be called "Transport For Blah" now in some kind of mass Transport for London fawning. If anything keep the franchise names the same, who cares what the government agency is called? They'll just rename it when they get bored.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I'd prefer Wales & Borders personally, admittedly with a slight bias because I dislike how every transport agency thinks they must be called "Transport For Blah" now in some kind of mass Transport for London fawning. If anything keep the franchise names the same, who cares what the government agency is called? They'll just rename it when they get bored.

I suppose it would be unlikely to hear KAW in the announcements, it would be either TfW or W&B or as suggested the plain "whatever time service to".

"Transport for" apparently seems fashionable across the country, in Greater Manchester, Edinburgh etc. Even Ireland has a nationwide transport body called "Transport for Ireland" which their logos can be seen on Dublin taxis! I agree this can seem smug & clinical.

It's a shame the Welsh government has to choose this sort of branding, I suppose like in Ireland, that every mode of transport in Wales for buses & trains to carry the TfW logo to appear integrated & unified. Taxis in Cardiff & Swansea may possibly have TfW logos plastered on cars.

I can't see the harm in KAW choosing a typical brand something like "Wales & Borders Trains" and the metro services as "METRO (in large text) - operated by Wales & Borders Trains (in small text underneath)". If the Welsh franchise were still in DfT hands then the above could be possible.

 

[Parallel]

I think they should use ‘Wales & Borders’ for all trains except Valleys where they should use ‘Cardiff Metro’ or ‘City Metro’ or something like that.

 

[craigybagel]

Tfw branding has appeared at stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury today, with no mention of KeolisAmey or Wales and Borders. Noteworthy both because this section is entirely within England, and because it suggests the rumours of West Midlands Trains taking over the local services on this route may not have been true.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Tfw branding has appeared at stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury today, with no mention of KeolisAmey or Wales and Borders. Noteworthy both because this section is entirely within England, and because it suggests the rumours of West Midlands Trains taking over the local services on this route may not have been true.

Does the the branding show the T logo with "TRANSPORT FOR WALES" in English & Welsh or English only or the T logo on its own?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I think I've mentioned before, but the majority of the mainline/larger stations in North Wales are in a dark green/red/cream scheme which seemed to be applied back in FNW days. This colour scheme has been continued and re-applied when, for example, the new footbridge to platform 4 was built at Wrexham General. Smaller stations seem to have the Arriva turquoise and cream as standard (as well as Bangor when I last visited). There is a dark blue / red / white scheme at Caergwrle and Buckley stations, dark red and cream at Llandudno, as well as an odd black and cream scheme at Gwersyllt. Wrexham Central has a mix of FNW dark green with Arriva turquoise - but no cream.

However, seen this over on NWRail:
http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

As well of course as the Metro signs going in the South:
(Wikipedia)

Wow, they seem to be moving quickly with ATW still as the present operator, surreal like ATW calling at other TOC managed stations though those stations are theirs at the moment!

It's good to see action taken in preparation for the changeover, which on SWR, the changes only became more apparent nearly a year later!

 

[JetStream]

If it's any comfort, those of us who'll have to announce the company name on a regular basis still haven't been told what we'll actually be announcing yet - but I'm sure that will be cleared up in time.

Fiver says it'll be Transport for Wales.

 

[craigybagel]

Fiver says it'll be Transport for Wales.

I'd say it is indeed looking that way, since.....

Does the the branding show the T logo with "TRANSPORT FOR WALES" in English & Welsh or English only or the T logo on its own?

The former. T logo, with Trafnidiaeth Cymru above Transport for Wales.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I'd say it is indeed looking that way, since.....
The former. T logo, with Trafnidiaeth Cymru above Transport for Wales.

Thanks for confirming. So some Welsh is present at an English station, is there a Welsh translation shown below the English station's name?

KAW is a Welsh TOC then some Welsh may be visible outside Wales, if say Swansea station was managed by GWR, an English TOC, then GWR branding would of course include Welsh as well as English. This would be interesting to see!

English nationalists, even if not many out there, may feel otherwise but I think some Welsh present at English stations is a nice touch as a some sort of marker that the Welsh border is close by.

 

[Cardiff123]

Thanks for confirming. So some Welsh is present at an English station, is there a Welsh translation shown below the English station's name?

KAW is a Welsh TOC then some Welsh may be visible outside Wales, if say Swansea station was managed by GWR, an English TOC, then GWR branding would of course include Welsh as well as English. This would be interesting to see!

English nationalists, even if not many out there, may feel otherwise but I think some Welsh present at English stations is a nice touch as a some sort of marker that the Welsh border is close by.

Expect a lot more Welsh in the new franchise. Whilst it won't be a problem on longer distance trains, bi-lingual automated announcements on trains in S Wales with stops only a few minutes apart will transform what are now silent journeys with no automated announcements, into journeys where the automated announcements will be constant and relentless.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Expect a lot more Welsh in the new franchise. Whilst it won't be a problem on longer distance trains, bi-lingual automated announcements on trains in S Wales with stops only a few minutes apart will transform what are now silent journeys with no automated announcements, into journeys where the automated announcements will be constant and relentless.

The practicalities are something the Welsh Language brigade fail to appreciate.........

 

[Rhydgaled]

However, seen this over on NWRail:
http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

Looks a bit plain. Just the TfW logo on a white backgroud, with no coloured stripe? My hope was a nice solid dark green bar at the bottom of the signs with no branding whatsoever, just to fill up the space at the bottom of the signs where ATW's turquoise stripe currently is.

As well of course as the Metro signs going in the South:
(Wikipedia)

Whereas that... just looks plain WRONG. The stripes should be at the bottom of the sign, it would look a whole lot better. I hope they don't do any more with the stripes at the top.

T logo, with Trafnidiaeth Cymru above Transport for Wales.

Welsh above English? On English stations? Wow! Even in south-east Wales, the road signs have the English above the Welsh; only when you cross the Loughor into south-west Wales is the Welsh written above the English.

 

[daikilo]

I do hope they won't invent "Welsh" names for towns which don't have one like say Ludlow

 

[mmh]

I do hope they won't invent "Welsh" names for towns which don't have one like say Ludlow

They won't need to invent one for Ludlow. It's Llwydlo in my 1968 edition of Y Geiriadur Mawr ("The Big Dictionary")

 

[Robertj21a]

They won't need to invent one for Ludlow. It's Llwydlo in my 1968 edition of Y Geiriadur Mawr ("The Big Dictionary")

That will be very useful to know for train travellers - assuming they also have a similar dictionary readily available !!

 

[mmh]

That will be very useful to know for train travellers - assuming they also have a similar dictionary readily available !!

I'm abivalent over whether placenames in England should be translated or not. There's probably a reasonable argument for doing so where there's genuinely a commonly used and understood Welsh translation, less so if there's an obscure Welsh translation, and probably next to none for creating new ones for the sake of it. Manceinion, sure. Lerpwl too, but not until May/Dec/Whenever 2019/2020 (delete as needed)...

The list in this dictionary is very short, just some countries, some border region English towns (Hereford is in there too), and some but not many Welsh towns (e.g. Swansea is not there)

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Silly this may sound, I find learning the Welsh translations for English placenames fascinating. There would be some Welsh in some of us English that I am unopposed to anything Welsh...

Chester is Caer, Hereford is Herifford so what's the translation for Shrewsbury if there's one?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It's a shame the Welsh government has to choose this sort of branding, I suppose like in Ireland, that every mode of transport in Wales for buses & trains to carry the TfW logo to appear integrated & unified. Taxis in Cardiff & Swansea may possibly have TfW logos plastered on cars.

TBH surely, with WAG's push for more prominence for the Welsh language the agency should be called "Trafnidiaeth am Gymru" or TaG for short?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

e.g. Swansea is not there

Môralarch? But this also translates as "sea alarm"!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Silly this may sound, I find learning the Welsh translations for English placenames fascinating. There would be some Welsh in some of us English that I am unopposed to anything Welsh...

Chester is Caer, Hereford is Herifford so what's the translation for Shrewsbury if there's one?

Amwythig {pronounced am-OI-thig or am-WIH-thig depending on where in Wales you're from}

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Môralarch? But this also translates as "sea alarm"!

Swansea does not have a direct Welsh translation as it's Welsh name is Abertawe which directly translates as "Tawe mouth"

 

[Tumbleweed]

I think Hereford is 'Henffordd', meaning 'Old Way/Road'?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Amwythig {pronounced am-OI-thig or am-WIH-thig depending on where in Wales you're from}

Thanks! Interesting, it looks different as I was expecting something beginning with "S" or some resemblance like the translations for Cardiff, Chester, Wrexham & Hereford! So no resemblance like Swansea & Newport.

Swansea does not have a direct Welsh translation as it's Welsh name is Abertawe which directly translates as "Tawe mouth"

That's true of Swansea having no Welsh translation that I was looking up out of curosity to see what it could be, as Welsh for swan is alarch and sea is Môr so "sea of swan" therefore Môralarch. As you say the English for Abertawe would be Tawemouth.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I think Hereford is 'Henffordd', meaning 'Old Way/Road'?

If my Welsh spelling was incorrect, so thanks for that anyway!