Arriva Trains Wales - it’s the final countdown

[allaction]

As ATW start talking to their successors regarding an orderly handover in the autumn, perhaps it’s time to assess their time on the franchise.

My view? It’s been underwhelming. They showed little interest in providing more than they needed to: the continued lack of power points on their flagship long distance 175 trains being the leading case in point in not grasping an initiative, but on the other hand, they always managed to get me home (sometimes on a rather elderly bustitution) if they had rolling stock problems.

They have had friendly staff doing their best, and are much appreciated for that, but ultimately not a company that will linger long in the memory.

 

[PHILIPE]

As ATW start talking to their successors regarding an orderly handover in the autumn, perhaps it’s time to assess their time on the franchise.

My view? It’s been underwhelming. They showed little interest in providing more than they needed to: the continued lack of power points on their flagship long distance 175 trains being the leading case in point in not grasping an initiative, but on the other hand, they always managed to get me home (sometimes on a rather elderly bustitution) if they had rolling stock problems.

They have had friendly staff doing their best, and are much appreciated for that, but ultimately not a company that will linger long in the memory.

Thread here:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keolis-amey-to-take-over-wales-and-borders.164805

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I remember the sinking feeling when I heard Arriva had won the Wales & Borders franchise in 2003.
They had just lost the RR North East franchise (to Serco/Abellio, as Northern), and were also about to lose Merseyrail (also to Serco/Abellio).
However, they got those franchises by buying out MTL who were in serious trouble, for which they deserve industry thanks.
They took over in my neck of the woods from First North Western, who had given up (First withdrew from the W&B competition to concentrate on TPE).

Despite the low expectations, I think they integrated the 3-4 separate parts of the W&B franchise successfully and became a professional if unexceptional outfit.
The main problem was that the no-growth franchise was twice the length it ought to have been, so they marked time from about 2010 onwards.
Their real job was to reduce the W&B subsidy, which it did pretty successfully, with better financial returns than expected for themselves and DfT/WG.
Transfer of franchise management from the SRA to WG didn't change much, apart from Gerald and a decent facelift of 158s and 150s.
I didn't much care for the redirection of services towards Cardiff, including stealing our (ex-FNW) 175s and reducing through services via Crewe.
They never had any scope for a major change of rolling stock, and we will still be paying for that for another 5 years.

It was telling that Arriva didn't win any other new franchise until XC, and since then they have only won Northern.
The takeover by DB gifted them Chiltern, 50% of LO and Tyne & Wear Metro which had been won by DB Regio, to make them a significant UK rail player.
ATW was profitable throughout, and at times bailed out the black holes at XC and Chiltern until they were turned round.
They don't seem hot on innovation, and their franchises are now steady-state (we'll see what happens at Northern, the only one with major investment).
They lost out on the competitions for ICEC and ICWC, and didn't make the short-list for HS2 services (WCP).
They took over LNWR as a cross-TOC rolling stock maintainer, now Arriva Traincare, and it seems to do a good job for several TOCs.
We still don't know why they declined to bid for new Wales & Borders, maybe because DB is losing interest in UK operations.
Nor did they become in any shape or form a recognisably DB operation (ie German-like).
They still seem to be, as they started 15 years ago, basically a bus operator with a rail arm.
But when you see the events at National Express, Govia and Stagecoach franchises, maybe their steady-as-she-goes approach is not a bad one.
But again, it all might all turn sour at Northern.

I do agree that they have very friendly staff, at least until they started enforcing the "buy before you board" mantra.
Over the years they have also manipulated fares to their advantage, although that is common TOC practice.
Off-peak fares are now significantly higher/more restricted than they used to be (relative to the regulated fares).
We'll have to see what Keolis Amey do for us.

 

[allaction]

Thread here:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keolis-amey-to-take-over-wales-and-borders.164805

I’m happy if the moderators want to bin this thread, but my intention was for it to look back at ATW’s performance, rather than look ahead to Keolis/Amey’s plans and prospects, which seems to be the main thrust of the other thread.

But it’s up to you....!

 

[PHILIPE]

I’m happy if the moderators want to bin this thread, but my intention was for it to look back at ATW’s performance, rather than look ahead to Keolis/Amey’s plans and prospects, which seems to be the main thrust of the other thread.

But it’s up to you....!

Thanks for the reply, on reflection I'll leave it at that

 

[Gareth Marston]

As I've always said no one forced Arriva to take on the deeply flawed Wales and Borders franchise. The then owners did it to make money and came with a distinct sour tasting attitude to the travelling public. That thankfully changed with the DB takeover.

The real problem lay with the SRA and the Labour Government in 2003 locking in a no growth franchise for 15 years. Uttererly stupid and short sighted. The Labour Welsh government were also complicit in this and declined to not really tackle the issue until the franchise replacement dispite knowing from the start of the flaws. No one is going to cry when the end to the franchise comes except the Finance Director of DB UK.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As I've always said no one forced Arriva to take on the deeply flawed Wales and Borders franchise. The then owners did it to make money and came with a distinct sour tasting attitude to the travelling public. That thankfully changed with the DB takeover.

The real problem lay with the SRA and the Labour Government in 2003 locking in a no growth franchise for 15 years. Uttererly stupid and short sighted. The Labour Welsh government were also complicit in this and declined to not really tackle the issue until the franchise replacement dispite knowing from the start of the flaws. No one is going to cry when the end to the franchise comes except the Finance Director of DB UK.

For the simple reason that any available funds from the Treasury were purloined as a result of Tom Winsors "benevolence" to the catch up needed by Railtrack and then Network Rail. The options for franchise renewal and "value for money" were just a bit challenged. Obviously - even after all this time , it cannot be discussed.

 

[Gareth Marston]

For the simple reason that any available funds from the Treasury were purloined as a result of Tom Winsors "benevolence" to the catch up needed by Railtrack and then Network Rail. The options for franchise renewal and "value for money" were just a bit challenged. Obviously - even after all this time , it cannot be discussed.

All history now but the most damaging thing was locking it all in for 15 years. Inexcusable and a massive lesson in the flaws of franchising in that improvements are not continous but tied in to what way the prevailing political wind is blowing at the time of franchise renewal dates. We've seen the opposite end of the same problem with ECML with an almost desperate promise of improvements and premium profiles that bear no relation to the infrastructures ability to allow it to happen. All or nothing neither seems to work.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And yet here we are with another 15-year stint.
Hopefully WG/KA have more investment options available during the life of the franchise.
But it all depends on whether the financial road-map is being met.
On the old franchise, I'm not sure it would have been different under First, National Express or Abellio (who I think were the other original bidders - First backed out).
The spats along the way between DfT and WG, and between WG and NR (eg on redoubling), certainly didn't help.
The LHCS initiatives were useful though, with DB funding the Holyhead-Manchester one.
The station upgrades made things more pleasant at Chester and Llandudno, though there's a lot of green paint to replace.
I'm not sure Newport likes its new station or not.
And we have PIS at most (all?) W&B stations now, whether we wanted to be continuously assailed verbally in Welsh and English, or not.
There are still many rural stations in other franchises without PIS beyond a timetable poster.
The standard pattern timetable worked for some but not others, and got more complicated as ATW tried to tweak more stock into the right place at the right time.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The standard pattern timetable did not fully pan out as "promised" , however ATW did manage to resource and operate the VoG and Ebbw Vale new routes. It also managed the Cambrian ERTMS project (whether you think it was a good project in times of cost and functionality !)

 

[Cardiff123]

Yes, we have another 15 year franchise, but the new franchise has 5 year break clauses and a lot more penalties for Keilos Amey if they don't deliver on the service they've promised.

The standard pattern timetable has certainly benefitted the Valleys, to the point where it's been a victim of it's own success.
The latter years of ATW will not be remembered fondly by the public. The enforcement of the 'buy before you board' policy which has been poorly implemented and is confusing for passengers, without the necessary facilities at stations for all passengers to be able to buy before they board. The threatening and downright nasty behaviour of the enforcement officers, or "green gestapo" as passengers call them, with extortionate fines, was not the right approach to cajole people into buying from TVMs that don't offer cash payment and may or may not print your tickets after taking your money.

It won't be hard for Keilos Amey to better ATW but public expectations might be impossibly high, especially in the first 5 years when not much will change.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The new rolling stock depot at Machynlleth was hailed as benevolent investment by ATW's then Management though in reality it was offered as an answer to the appalling punctuality the ex Central Trains routes suffered from in the early years of the franchise. ATW were certainly encouraged or felt they needed to spend £ on the Cambrian (and the extension of servies to BHM INTL) to avoid the risk of franchise breach.

 

[craigybagel]

There's nothing wrong with a 15 year franchise - you only have to look at the transformation that took place on Chiltern when they were given the time and incentive to invest, and you could even argue that like them or loathe them, Virgin have transformed the WCML with their long term franchises, mostly for the better.

The problem with the Wales and Borders was the ridiculous assumption that there would be zero growth over this time. The government - either in Westminster or Cardiff - should have seized on this issue years ago and renegotiated the terms of the franchise to cope with what was obvious in reality, that passenger numbers were very much on the up. Instead they did nothing.

The new franchise certainly has the potential to be transformational, and I'm glad that Keolis Amey have been given the time and funding to make the improvements that were needed years ago.

 

[Ianno87]

There's nothing wrong with a 15 year franchise - you only have to look at the transformation that took place on Chiltern when they were given the time and incentive to invest, and you could even argue that like them or loathe them, Virgin have transformed the WCML with their long term franchises, mostly for the better.

The problem with the Wales and Borders was the ridiculous assumption that there would be zero growth over this time. The government - either in Westminster or Cardiff - should have seized on this issue years ago and renegotiated the terms of the franchise to cope with what was obvious in reality, that passenger numbers were very much on the up. Instead they did nothing.

The new franchise certainly has the potential to be transformational, and I'm glad that Keolis Amey have been given the time and funding to make the improvements that were needed years ago.

Chiltern is a different kettle of fish in having some clear, lucrative markets to pursue, that could be served with a realistic level of investment; namely London<>Birmingham and London<>Oxford; both are substantial flows and could be tapped into with relatively modest investment.

ATW isn't really in the same ballpark with the potential markets on its network; it either has the monopoly already, is encumbered with markets far too small a flow to generate a commercial return on investment, both of these, or where the infrastructure investment to satisfy these markets wouldn't come close to washing its face in terms of its financial return.

 

[craigybagel]

Chiltern is a different kettle of fish in having some clear, lucrative markets to pursue, that could be served with a realistic level of investment; namely London<>Birmingham and London<>Oxford; both are substantial flows and could be tapped into with relatively modest investment.

ATW isn't really in the same ballpark with the potential markets on its network; it either has the monopoly already, is encumbered with markets far too small a flow to generate a commercial return on investment, both of these, or where the infrastructure investment to satisfy these markets wouldn't come close to washing its face in terms of its financial return.

Less low hanging fruit then on Chiltern perhaps - but it's still there. You only have to look at how passenger numbers on the Valleys and Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury have shot up since they've had service improvements. After 15 years with little or no investment, there is a lot of built up demand on other routes as well.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's nothing wrong with a 15 year franchise - you only have to look at the transformation that took place on Chiltern when they were given the time and incentive to invest, and you could even argue that like them or loathe them, Virgin have transformed the WCML with their long term franchises, mostly for the better.

The problem with the Wales and Borders was the ridiculous assumption that there would be zero growth over this time. The government - either in Westminster or Cardiff - should have seized on this issue years ago and renegotiated the terms of the franchise to cope with what was obvious in reality, that passenger numbers were very much on the up. Instead they did nothing.

The new franchise certainly has the potential to be transformational, and I'm glad that Keolis Amey have been given the time and funding to make the improvements that were needed years ago.

When Plaid were in coalition in Cardiff Bay (2007 -2011) it was announced that they would look into terminating early and renegotiating the franchise the then Plaid leader Ieuan Wyn Jones had the transport portfolio and was personally well aware of the problems with the original franchise. There was never any satisfactory answer as to why nothing changed that emanated from Cardiff Bay and after 2011 Welsh Labour seemed happy to let the franchise run its course.

 

[CardiffKid]

I've noticed ATW have started stripping their logos from their rolling stock, which is earlier than I assumed they would.

 

[krus_aragon]

I've noticed ATW have started stripping their logos from their rolling stock, which is earlier than I assumed they would.

Makes sense if the unit is in for a routine exam, and the next scheduled exam is after the handover date.

 

[Llanigraham]

When Plaid were in coalition in Cardiff Bay (2007 -2011) it was announced that they would look into terminating early and renegotiating the franchise the then Plaid leader Ieuan Wyn Jones had the transport portfolio and was personally well aware of the problems with the original franchise. There was never any satisfactory answer as to why nothing changed that emanated from Cardiff Bay and after 2011 Welsh Labour seemed happy to let the franchise run its course.

I understood they found that the early termination clause in the contract meant it would have been too expensive to do that.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I understood they found that the early termination clause in the contract meant it would have been too expensive to do that.

That was what was said but we never saw any evidence of what exactly that cost would have been (if it existed in the first place).

 

[northwichcat]

They had just lost the RR North East franchise (to Serco/Abellio, as Northern), and were also about to lose Merseyrail (also to Serco/Abellio).

Why does everyone keep referring to Arriva losing a franchise to Abellio/Serco? It's just as valid to say they lost the franchise to First/Kelios given Arriva operated the North and South TPE routes which made up the majority of the TPE franchise services.

 

[CardiffKid]

I've noticed ATW have started stripping their logos from their rolling stock, which is earlier than I assumed they would.

Station de-branding has started too.

 

[krus_aragon]

See also a short article (with pictures) on http://nwrail.org.uk/nw1809a.htm

 

[387star]

Their 158s were in an appalling state for many years in fact they have barely invested till the welsh gov intervened

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Comparisons between ATW and Chiltern (or XC for that matter) are interesting, because by 2010 they had the same parent company!
DB Arriva's regular profits from ATW also bailed out Chiltern and XC when they went through bad financial patches.
We'll have to see if Keolis Amey got their sums right on the new franchise.

 

[Parallel]

Their 158s were in a bad state, but now they are now in the best 158s on the network for me now (SWT close behind, Scotrail Inverness units a close third. Northern ones are the worst - I’ve used 4 different ones in the last week and all have been really grubby internally)

What’s more baffling is why ATW felt the need to spend money refreshing the entire Pacer fleet a year or so ago, when they are all due to be withdrawn anyway...

But generally speaking, I will miss ATW to some degree due to how long they’ve been around, and my trips home from Aberystwyth between semesters. The franchise is now extremely outdated, and one hopes that the DfT have learned their lessons for next time (and the WG but we know that’s probably not true!) - ATW guards and ticket office staff have always been very helpful and I also love the turquoise colour scheme. Thankfully more or less every station has been Arriva-fied so it will be a while before it all disappears.

 

[Cardiff123]

Their 158s were in an appalling state for many years in fact they have barely invested till the welsh gov intervened

Their 158s were in a bad state, but now they are now in the best 158s on the network for me now (SWT close behind, Scotrail Inverness units a close third. Northern ones are the worst - I’ve used 4 different ones in the last week and all have been really grubby internally)

What’s more baffling is why ATW felt the need to spend money refreshing the entire Pacer fleet a year or so ago, when they are all due to be withdrawn anyway...

It is very baffling why the Pacers and 150s had a complete refresh, nearing on a refurb, just 2 - 3 years ago, yet the 175s have basically been left to rot. 175s are supposed to be the flagship long distance fleet yet they've not been touched internally for years and years. I get that the Valleys is probably the most complained about part of the network, so if they couldn't solve the overcrowding issues they at least wanted to spruce up the interiors of the Pacers and 150s, but I still don't understand why the 175s have had no attention at all.
The Pacers have even had WiFi fitted! Albeit the money was from Welsh Govt for that.

Whilst ATW have done well to keep trains running and keep everything ticking over, after over 15 years of little or no investment in Wales, people, including myself, are understandably sceptical about the transformational, 'world class' new Welsh railway we are being promised.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I know the franchise handover is in October, but what is the exact date? What will be the last ATW service and what will be the first TfW/KAW&B service?

I also love the turquoise colour scheme.

I don't. I like the 'Ocean Blue' livery first seen on Gerald and then the 158s (although the original Gerald, with turquoise doors rather than the later light blue that matches the 158s, was my favoriate) but the 175s (and other stock in that livery) just look drab to me. It is the vibrant turquoise Arriva have splashed over the stations that I really hate though.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I know the franchise handover is in October, but what is the exact date? What will be the last ATW service and what will be the first TfW/KAW&B service?

13th October 2018. Last service will actually be a bus replacement between Hereford and Cardiff leaving @ 0010 on 14th.
The 2354 Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury wont arrive until 0045.

 

[Parallel]

@Rhydgaled I’m not a fan of the cream at the ends of the coaches on the older livery - And I’d agree that it looks better on trains than stations.

Unrelated note but I was on the 14:09 Birmingham Intl to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli today that was formed of 150255 from Birmingham. Needless to say that was packed. Set swap due at Shrewsbury.