I agree to a point, but by the same token there seem to be so many attention seeking posts on this forum by people claiming to know what is happening on the inside when they actually don't. If they know something but cannot say anything about it, surely it's better to say nothing at all otherwise there is no wonder people ask the questions!
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Northern short train during closure
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I agree to a point, but by the same token there seem to be so many attention seeking posts on this forum by people claiming to know what is happening on the inside when they actually don't. If they know something but cannot say anything about it, surely it's better to say nothing at all otherwise there is no wonder people ask the questions!
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I consider the attitude on display here appallingly dismissive.
As to short forming being an occasional hazard, yes it is. But not in these circumstances, given the predictable severity of the impact in effectively severing the rail link between two of the country's largest cities during rush hour for all those that couldn't travel, in a period when your role in "keeping Liverpool moving" not only should have been top priority but at a time when there ought to have been more than enough resource and equipment to deliver (even in the face of technical issues arising).
At the very least, questions need to be asked and answered about contingency plans.
Today's service was already shocking, and the chippy attitude shown to those daring to complain about it only serves to make me more determined to dig deeper into this.
As to short forming being an occasional hazard, yes it is. But not in these circumstances, given the predictable severity of the impact in effectively severing the rail link between two of the country's largest cities during rush hour for all those that couldn't travel, in a period when your role in "keeping Liverpool moving" not only should have been top priority but at a time when there ought to have been more than enough resource and equipment to deliver (even in the face of technical issues arising).
At the very least, questions need to be asked and answered about contingency plans.
Today's service was already shocking, and the chippy attitude shown to those daring to complain about it only serves to make me more determined to dig deeper into this.
221129
Established Member
A train broke down.... not a lot anyone can do about that.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Putting aside the "All the Presidents Men" esque personal search to expose the Northern Rail conspiracy lets look at this logically. What may well have happened is a train or piece of equipment failed in such a way that access to a depot was reduced meaning a knock on impact on services. hard to run more than 4 carriages if all you can get off the depot is................. 4 carriages. Not great but the best that can be done at that instant. That or a conspiracy. yeah. I go for conspiracy.
Polarbear
Established Member
I can understand the point you are making, but I would suggest taking this up with Northern, rather than attempting to elicit a full & frank disclosure on what is an enthusiasts forum.
Although many rail staff are enthusiasts & some post on forums like these, not all of them will do & it's reasonable to assume that those that do may not want to disclose information that is not in the public domain, as there may well be consequences for them. I know my employer takes such a viewpoint & whilst I can make general comments, I won't engage in any detailed discussion on anything related to work on this or any other forum.
Bromley boy
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With respect a poster made the perfectly reasonable comment that, although not ideal, running two-vice-four coaches was better than running none, and you immediately accused him of being defensive.
You’ve had several reasoned posts explaining why the short formation may have occurred, all of which you have ignored or dismissed out of hand.
Just what is it you are proposing to “dig deeper into”?
Maybe you should simply complain to the TOC rather than demanding answers on here which posters are certainly not obliged to give you.
td97
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Surely the construction of Springs Bank depot at Wigan should mean that events this don't happen when it opens? As a unit could be brought in from there, which is closer and also wouldn't have been affected by the Lime St closure. So there is already a contingency plan in development.
Yes, it's shockingly poor that Northern short-form an EMU service with a 2-car DMU, especially when the EMU broke down the day before and they have plenty spare.
But the alternative would probably have been a cancellation to a passenger service on Sunday to get the units in the right place. Either way, somebody would have not been able to get their train.
Yes, it's shockingly poor that Northern short-form an EMU service with a 2-car DMU, especially when the EMU broke down the day before and they have plenty spare.
But the alternative would probably have been a cancellation to a passenger service on Sunday to get the units in the right place. Either way, somebody would have not been able to get their train.
According to RTT, the reason for the non-operation of today's 0630 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool and 0801 return was 'planning error'.
Not making excuses in anyway but maybe just maybe due to the fact that the train was so overcrowded the guard couldn't get back to the cab to make an announcement in a timely fashion to apologise? Am sure the guard was too busy trying to get as many people on the service as possible and dealing with those around them who were nose to armpit.....
Jonfun
Established Member
The whole farce of the Lime Street closure has been poorly planned and implemented -keeping the city on the move it does not.
(Though credit where credit's due, the RRBs are working better this time round. Only been on one which has failed to stop at stations en route - last time it was nearly all of them. And they've put the RRB stop sign in the right place at Edge Hill this time.)
But it isn't the Guard on the train's fault that Northern haven't provided sufficient rolling stock to meet demand. They're stuck on the crowded train as much as the passengers!
Really while it's single line working you really do need a one in one out kind of arrangement to ensure sufficient passenger flow. Or consider starting some services en route, eg Edge Hill or Huyton, to pick up the local passengers.
(Though credit where credit's due, the RRBs are working better this time round. Only been on one which has failed to stop at stations en route - last time it was nearly all of them. And they've put the RRB stop sign in the right place at Edge Hill this time.)
But it isn't the Guard on the train's fault that Northern haven't provided sufficient rolling stock to meet demand. They're stuck on the crowded train as much as the passengers!
Really while it's single line working you really do need a one in one out kind of arrangement to ensure sufficient passenger flow. Or consider starting some services en route, eg Edge Hill or Huyton, to pick up the local passengers.
I don't want to put words into the OP's mouth, but perhaps part of his irritation stems from.the way aome other posters on here reacted to.a fairly.legitimate complaint. It is not 'whinging' to point out that, for 2 hours in the morning peak, services on one of the main lines between 2 of England'a biggest cities were reduced to a single 2 car DMU, whose operator neither acknowledged, nor apoligised for, nor attempted to explain the problem.
These events, which seem to have arisen from.the chronic lack of resilience on the local network becoming acute during the Lime Street blockade, illustrate a deeper problem which has been underlined by the Lime Street works. Which is that no-one in a position of responsibility seems to.care much about whether.Liverpool temains connected to the outside.world or not. Was it really necessary for Network Rail to close the whole? or virtually the whole station for.2 months ? Have TPE really no.alternative to running nothing west of Victoria, given they stop at 2 intermediate stations between there and Liverpool ? Is an hourly 319 really an adequate substitute for the 2 TPE and 2 Northern services which usually run per hour over all or part of Chat Moss ? The people who run the railway often seem to treat Liverpool as a bothersome appendage which can't drop into the sea fast enough for them, and some on here seem to share the same attitude.
These events, which seem to have arisen from.the chronic lack of resilience on the local network becoming acute during the Lime Street blockade, illustrate a deeper problem which has been underlined by the Lime Street works. Which is that no-one in a position of responsibility seems to.care much about whether.Liverpool temains connected to the outside.world or not. Was it really necessary for Network Rail to close the whole? or virtually the whole station for.2 months ? Have TPE really no.alternative to running nothing west of Victoria, given they stop at 2 intermediate stations between there and Liverpool ? Is an hourly 319 really an adequate substitute for the 2 TPE and 2 Northern services which usually run per hour over all or part of Chat Moss ? The people who run the railway often seem to treat Liverpool as a bothersome appendage which can't drop into the sea fast enough for them, and some on here seem to share the same attitude.
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Easy to comment from the sidelines....it's well advertised what the service would be during a station redevelopment. It is what it is. As always, people on here seem to think they know better than the ones responsible for planning.... simply apply for the jobs when they come up.
I believe the plan was to run 2tph Liverpool-Manchester Victoria during the blockade, but with Northern's current issues it was cut back to hourly. Probably impossible to arrange at short notice, but a shame that the freed up path between Liverpool and Man Victoria couldn't be used by a TPE service.
But this is exactly my point. If TPE normally run 2 TPH the whole.way from Manchester to Liverpool, why had they no plans from the outset to run even part of the route during the disruption ? What if anything are their trains and crews doing in the meantime ?
I m afraid you won't be getting any answers on here, so in the meantime, if you actually need to make the journey, refer to the websites and they will tell you exactly what trains are planned to run. It really is that simple. Of course once all the redevelopment work is completed, we should see an uplift in services
The complaints might well be valid but to come on a public forum with such a peremptory tone, demanding 'categorical' answers from some unspecified source as if the posters here are accountable to him was bound to generate less than sympathetic responses. He dismissed the information he was given so what would be the point in providing more, even if anyone here had more to give? There is an art to complaining.
notlob.divad
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I do not work for Northern and am never ever going to defend them.
However looking at RTT, from what I see the reason for the initial issue with the single 156, appears to be that for a very brief spell they had 3 train in the 2 platforms at Lime Street Monday morning. I assume with the current setup neither platform can take 2 x 319s so they had to use a shorter train. It is the only logical explanation I can find why you would run a smaller, slower, diesel train with end doors, on a busy morning electrified commuter service.
As for the argument 2 vice 4 is better than no train at all, I have the controversial opinion it isn't. At least I could prove to a manager the train just didn't run. Much hard to convince them that there was no way to get on the train. He/she that joe bloggs who works next door and gets on at the station before managed to get to work.
However looking at RTT, from what I see the reason for the initial issue with the single 156, appears to be that for a very brief spell they had 3 train in the 2 platforms at Lime Street Monday morning. I assume with the current setup neither platform can take 2 x 319s so they had to use a shorter train. It is the only logical explanation I can find why you would run a smaller, slower, diesel train with end doors, on a busy morning electrified commuter service.
As for the argument 2 vice 4 is better than no train at all, I have the controversial opinion it isn't. At least I could prove to a manager the train just didn't run. Much hard to convince them that there was no way to get on the train. He/she that joe bloggs who works next door and gets on at the station before managed to get to work.
Do we cancel an off peak train which is short formed?
It's worth pointing out that the overflow of passengers from a short formed peak train can sometimes be mopped up with a stop order on a train following.
notlob.divad
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TPE could certainly have run through to Huyton and turned back there in platform 3. Even if it isn't a station the usually serve. They might have needed to bang a small portacabin down in the carpark as temporary crew mess facilities. But then that would have cost them money and probably meant less compensation from network rail for not running the service. The wonders of franchised rail operations, where making money is more important than providing the service.
I wouldn't hold my breath for that one
All of them ?
Also, the wonders of how.little clout the Liverpool area seems to have when it comes to these matters, and how little interest the local authorities (including Merseyrail) seem to have in these matters. I think it is genuinely extraordinary that TPE have done this, and that everyone has metaphorically shrugged their shoulders in response.
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notlob.divad
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You may as well cancel everything and put your feet up because you gave up any pretence of running a service in the public interest a long time ago.
It isn't worth pointing it out because as the OP pointed out, a: there aren't any following services, as you are already running a reduced timetable and b: you had already cancelled the next one anyway.
It is still no good if you have to be somewhere at a set time. Or are northern now suggesting everyone should travel 2 hours earlier than they have to, just in case they decide to short form a train and then cancel the next.
P.s. Talking about human beings who are attempting to be your customers like they are water flowing out of a bath, that can be caught in a bucket...
If you ever saw and understand how all this works from the inside , your knowledge of railways would be far better than it is now. It absolutely does not work like a trainset at home.
Loop & Link
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I already pointed out the reason, on a previous page.
P1 can take 2 x 319’s, P2 can’t.
But it seems to be waste of time on here, actually doing the work to provide an answer and being transparent.
Person doesn't work for the railway, person should not comment. Is that about right? It's a customer who doesn't wanted to be treated with contempt.
People are fed up and have every right to complain, whether that is here, directly to the TOC, anywhere they please. It's not surprising they feel that way, Northern is rotten to the core.
I don't know, how many sets of crew would be not be required due to services terminating at Manchester? I suspect not as many as you might imagine. And even those not booked for training may still be required to turn around services, perhaps help with timetable recovery etc. In all honesty very few of us know for certain, only the crews and their respective management teams will know the details. But I suspect just sticking them onto some short runs part way along the Chat Moss was not an option, and no matter how much people here think they could make it work it isn't going to happen.
Posting a " complaint" on here is not going to make a scrap of difference ...as I have pointed out, the service is as advertised just for now and for very good reason. However, we can't take our eye of what we are trying to achieve longer term. Once everything is 100% in place ( infrastructure, trains and staff) , all the current issues will be forgotten about
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