Northern's Problems in the North West

[Robertj21a]

You can’t really blame the TOC for their poor handling of the press. The railway only ever makes headline news when there is major loss of life and normally they just deal with the railway press, who on the whole are sycophantic, so when they have to deal with real reporters it isn’t surprising they hide or are clueless.

Any major company should have a person who is tasked with dealing with any form of media enquiry.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Oh yes you can.

Any sensible corporate body should have a communication plan and a crisis management plan to deal with this sort of thing.

And it's nonsense to say a major loss of life would just attract the rail press. It would attract the whole gamut of press and media reporters including those reporting from the scene and others trying to prise any juicy facts or comments from those involved. This could often mean them trying to infiltrate crash sites to get exclusive pictures etc. It happens.

You are correct it would be nonsense to say a major loss of life would just attract the rail press but I didn't say that. What I clearly did say is the only time the railway makes headline news is when there is a major loss of life.

 

[muz379]

You can’t really blame the TOC for their poor handling of the press. The railway only ever makes headline news when there is major loss of life and normally they just deal with the railway press, who on the whole are sycophantic, so when they have to deal with real reporters it isn’t surprising they hide or are clueless.

The mayor of a major conurbation your company operates in is in the press daily speaking about the poor service and calling for political action to strip the franchise from your company (I appreciate that is not the panacea for this set of issues) and it takes you 2 weeks to get your view across to the same media . Is it any wonder the press is anti railway ?

 

[CHAPS2034]

You are correct it would be nonsense to say a major loss of life would just attract the rail press but I didn't say that. What I clearly did say is the only time the railway makes headline news is when there is a major loss of life.

Indeed I misread your post first time around.

I have now substantially edited mine now to reflect that.

And of course as the current situation has shown, the railway can make headline news even when there is no loss of life - current timetable horrors and strikes for example

 

[superkev]

Is for 10 days and then subject to a satisfactory outcome of pay talks.

I heard it was more like 3 months and was a huge increase in previous. Perhaps drivers on here would be too embarrassed to say how much.
I can't help thinking ASLEF are playing with fire.
K

 

[RickSanchez]

I heard it was more like 3 months and was a huge increase in previous. Perhaps drivers on here would be too embarrassed to say how much.
I can't help thinking ASLEF are playing with fire.
K

I don’t see why they should feel the need to publish it, it is between them and the company and it is only a short term fix

I would hazard that it will still be less than other tocs pay for RDW

 

[RickSanchez]

so in summary...

RDW expires in February

Service went totally balls up sometime after and peaked with timetable change

Everyone blames Dft, Arriva, ASLEF, SoS

Want it sorting ASAP whatever it takes

RDW agreed as short term fix

Sentiment turns straight to drivers pay and profiteering and turns focus away from underlying fundamental flaws in operations

within 24-48 hours all services will be covered and problems will all be blamed on drivers and ASLEF for not working rest days

Then RDW will expire, then timetable change in December but underlying problems not sorted and back to the situation we have now

 

[Moonshot]

so in summary...

RDW expires in February

Service went totally balls up sometime after and peaked with timetable change

Everyone blames Dft, Arriva, ASLEF, SoS

Want it sorting ASAP whatever it takes

RDW agreed as short term fix

Sentiment turns straight to drivers pay and profiteering and turns focus away from underlying fundamental flaws in operations

within 24-48 hours all services will be covered and problems will all be blamed on drivers and ASLEF for not working rest days

Then RDW will expire, then timetable change in December but underlying problems not sorted and back to the situation we have now

The underlying problems being?

 

[RickSanchez]

-poor implementation of timetable
-lack of rolling stock for extra services
-shortfall in drivers or training depending how you look at it
-micromanagement by Dft in mandating services and rolling stock required
-poor communication to passengers
-lack of adequate contingency planning
- poor change management
-over reliance on RDW (both operators and ASLEF are committed to reducing this)
-poor oversight of impact of major project and engineering delays

Sure there are more and they will come to light with the review

 

[driver_m]

If jayah could sneer anymore he would be Cyril Sneer off that 80s Canadian cartoon.

 

[RickSanchez]

If jayah could sneer anymore he would be Cyril Sneer off that 80s Canadian cartoon.

Was it The raccoons?

Edit: Google says yes

And I concur

 

[Red Devil]

I heard it was more like 3 months and was a huge increase in previous. Perhaps drivers on here would be too embarrassed to say how much.
I can't help thinking ASLEF are playing with fire.
K

Playing with fire? In what respect? The company will have approached ASLEF for RDW agreement as a short term fix for their travails. An agreement was reached, where's the problem.

-poor implementation of timetable
-lack of rolling stock for extra services
-shortfall in drivers or training depending how you look at it
-micromanagement by Dft in mandating services and rolling stock required
-poor communication to passengers
-lack of adequate contingency planning
- poor change management
-over reliance on RDW (both operators and ASLEF are committed to reducing this)
-poor oversight of impact of major project and engineering delays

Sure there are more and they will come to light with the review

An excellent post. The present day railway summed up

 

[celdor]

Even with a new timetable - how can Northern keep saying they have enough Drivers???

Manchester Airport to Blackpool North
Northern


Service updates

• This train has been delayed by a shortage of train drivers

 

[Bantamzen]

Even with a new timetable - how can Northern keep saying they have enough Drivers???

Manchester Airport to Blackpool North
Northern


Service updates

• This train has been delayed by a shortage of train drivers

The last few pages of this thread have a detailed insight into the reasons why. I would suggest going back through a few days worth of discussion to answer why Northern say they have enough drivers overall, but not necessarily for all routes.

 

[JamesT]

Even with a new timetable - how can Northern keep saying they have enough Drivers???

Manchester Airport to Blackpool North
Northern


Service updates

• This train has been delayed by a shortage of train drivers

That message presumably comes from an automated system with a limited set of reasons. I'd imagine there isn't a separate one for "not enough drivers trained on the route/traction", so the "not enough drivers" option is picked instead as the nearest.

 

[celdor]

I have read the last few weeks posts reasons and excuses but they have not had enough drivers for the last 8 to 10 months. This is not a new problem just an old one exacerbated by the implementation ( or not) of the old new time table and now we see they cant even operate to the replacement emergency timetable.
I am pretty sure this situation would not be tolerated in Germany where the ultimate owner of "Northern" would seem to be The Federal Republic of Germany?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have read the last few weeks posts reasons and excuses but they have not had enough drivers for the last 8 to 10 months. This is not a new problem just an old one exacerbated by the implementation ( or not) of the old new time table and now we see they cant even operate to the replacement emergency timetable.
I am pretty sure this situation would not be tolerated in Germany where the ultimate owner of "Northern" would seem to be The Federal Republic of Germany?

DB have actually had (in Germany) a bad time of things of late which is leading to pressure on them to stop the international conquests and concentrate on the situation at home.

 

[Moonshot]

The last few pages of this thread have a detailed insight into the reasons why. I would suggest going back through a few days worth of discussion to answer why Northern say they have enough drivers overall, but not necessarily for all routes.

Ultimately it boils down to how long it actually takes for a driver to become competent over a route. There are a minimum number of trips specific to each route and an assessment at the end. It's worth pointing out that a driver can ask to do a few more trips if they feel the need to. It all comes back to one thing though, and that is the ability to get a train from a to b without mishap. Nobody in this industry takes safety shortcuts, and this is proven by the UK rail network consistently coming top of the safety league table

 

[Andrew32]

This confirmed as the reason for the 10 days?

Is for 10 days and then subject to a satisfactory outcome of pay talks.

 

[Moonshot]

This confirmed as the reason for the 10 days?

Yes , whether anyone likes it or not. Pay rises should have happened in April. As always however they drag on and we end up getting back pay once settled. The realities are that RDW ( and Sunday workings) are used as a bargaining chip.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern has informed Transport for the North that to reinstate services on the Lakes Line, after two weeks of the interim timetable, would be likely to lead to further delays and unscheduled cancellations on this line and across the wider network.

The statement below is made on behalf of members of the Transport for the North Partnership Board. Members recognise, reluctantly, that insisting rail services are restored in week 3 of the interim timetable would be likely to see a return to an unreliable service in Cumbria and further afield.

Transport for the North now urges Northern to present options for restoring rail services on the Lakes Line as soon as possible, at the very latest week 5 of the interim timetable.

John Cridland, Chairman of Transport for the North, said:

“It’s disappointing that we are in this position, as communities and businesses rely on the Lakes Line service. Northern must now do everything they can to get a train service running again on that line as soon as possible. This cannot go on for a prolonged period.

“Northern has said that passengers would be likely to experience further cancellations and unscheduled delays across the Lakes and wider network if services are reinstated. As the voice of the North’s communities, we cannot responsibly insist that they take that operational decision. The passengers come first.

“Let us be clear, our support for Cumbria is unwavering. We are urging Northern to look at all ways in which a rail service on the line can be restored by the beginning of July at the latest.”

https://transportforthenorth.com/statement-regarding-lakes-line-rail-services/

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

so in summary...
RDW expires in February
Service went totally balls up sometime after and peaked with timetable change
Everyone blames Dft, Arriva, ASLEF, SoS
Want it sorting ASAP whatever it takes
RDW agreed as short term fix
Sentiment turns straight to drivers pay and profiteering and turns focus away from underlying fundamental flaws in operations
within 24-48 hours all services will be covered and problems will all be blamed on drivers and ASLEF for not working rest days
Then RDW will expire, then timetable change in December but underlying problems not sorted and back to the situation we have now

I see the East Midlands ITT out today requires bidders to produce a plan for the elimination of routine Rest Day Working, after takeover
I don't know if that was a late addition because of recent events, or has been required in previous ITTs, but it does seem to recognise the problem.

The Bidder’s approach to train crew establishment which should include:
i) Their high-level strategy (including an industrial relations plan) to phase out the need for planned / rostered rest-day working and / or overtime working to deliver its Plan of the Day by December 2021;

 

[dk1]

MEN reporting that Northern have obtained a temporary agreement from ASLEF allowing drivers to work FDs.

 

[splashoutradio]

Just out of interest, how often does a driver need cover a particular route in order to remain competent?
If there's a chance that the Windermere branch could remain without a train for 5 weeks, could this potentially cause issues?

 

[WCMLaddict]

Yes , whether anyone likes it or not. Pay rises should have happened in April. As always however they drag on and we end up getting back pay once settled. The realities are that RDW ( and Sunday workings) are used as a bargaining chip.

No.
And you once again prove how happy you are to spread any unfounded crap that fits your views or agenda.

The 10 days are for the negotiated deal (RDW and productivity deal, NOT pay deal) to go in front of ASLEF executive committee. Any negotiated deals have to be approved by EC.
Nothing to do with pay deal.

 

[Howardh]

Realtimetrains shows the 0954 completed it's journey (only) seven minutes late, which is well within the time I would have allocated.

Well I've had my little day out.
1. Bolton - Manchester Airport; left on time and arrived 10.34 (I think that's early) 5 gold stars, never saw that coming!!
2. Flight 12.35 to Southampton, on time.
3. Southampton - Shawford on time (lovely stopping train and Southampton Parkway (airport) is a great little station.
4. Shawford - Southampon virtually on time
5. 1835 FlyBE flight, delayed until 2015 but left at 1955
6. Man Airport - Picc, no idea, just jumped on the first train I saw
7. Finally Northern blotted their copybook; the 2202 Picc/Bolton was on the master board on the concourse with 1'delay but no platform. At platform 13/14 there was no indication the train was running at all *cue panic - was it going from Oxford Road??. Went back to the major screen - still up there - and one Northern guy took me to a nice lady who had a tablet with conformation there WAS a train and it was on it's way to 13/14. So the train was on time but the information on the actual platform was hopeless. Just before the train came in it did come up on display but many like me might have panicked and gone looking outside for a bus!!

 

[muz379]

Just out of interest, how often does a driver need cover a particular route in order to remain competent?
If there's a chance that the Windermere branch could remain without a train for 5 weeks, could this potentially cause issues?

Generally accepted norms are 6 months before a route refresh request can be put in .

5 weeks wont cause any issue with rout knowledge retention.

 

[Bertie the bus]

https://transportforthenorth.com/statement-regarding-lakes-line-rail-services/

And if in another fortnight Northern still say they can't reinstate a rail service what will TfN do then? Show their unwavering support for Cumbria by caving in again?

 

[Moonshot]

No.
And you once again prove how happy you are to spread any unfounded crap that fits your views or agenda.

The 10 days are for the negotiated deal (RDW and productivity deal, NOT pay deal) to go in front of ASLEF executive committee. Any negotiated deals have to be approved by EC.
Nothing to do with pay deal.

Suggest you go back and check your facts , and my views are absolutely none of your business.

 

[Moonshot]

And if in another fortnight Northern still say they can't reinstate a rail service what will TfN do then? Show their unwavering support for Cumbria by caving in again?

Not a lot they can do .... Northern are being totally honest. Of course we all know it's temporary until resources are sorted to enable the planned services to be running