EMT service cancelled due to disorder.

[BestWestern]

The stereotyping on here is exactly what the issue is.

You started off by suggesting that the 'stereotypical' behaviour isn't actually a problem, passengers are wimps who should just put up with it, and staff who have issues with it are all talking rubbish because they're "all in their back cabs" and so wouldn't have the slightest idea what actually happens on their own trains, ever. And now you're complaining that the issue is in fact unfair stereotyping. Is the behaviour acceptable, or not?!!

 

[Iskra]

You started off by suggesting that the 'stereotypical' behaviour isn't actually a problem, passengers are wimps who should just put up with it, and staff who have issues with it are all talking rubbish because they're "all in their back cabs" and so wouldn't have the slightest idea what actually happens on their own trains, ever. And now you're complaining that the issue is in fact unfair stereotyping. Is the behaviour acceptable, or not?!!

Most ridiculous paraphrasing of 2018 award is sewn-up early this year.

Ah, so you don’t like being stereotyped either. Glad we agree on something.

 

[BestWestern]

Most ridiculous paraphrasing of 2018 award is sewn-up early this year.

Ah, so you don’t like being stereotyped either. Glad we agree on something.

Enjoy your afternoon

 

[DarloRich]

But it's not 'just a bit of noise' is it ?

It's loud, usually drink-fuelled, swear-laden and intimidatory. It can ruin the trip for women and families.

Why do the 'normal' travellers have to put up with that

Why not challenge the situation then? Why meekly sit in the corner tutting. I guess unlike many here i am not easily cowed. Pointing out there are kids and women about usually brings a change in tone.

the stereotypical football crowd rowdy

For me the stereotyping is the issue. I understand why you and others may think the way you do but, based on my experience, I disagree

 

[BestWestern]

For me the stereotyping is the issue. I understand why you and others may think the way you do but, based on my experience, I disagree

What are we looking at here though, the suggestion that fans are rowdy, or the suggestion that it isn't acceptable?

 

[DarloRich]

What are we looking at here though, the suggestion that fans are rowdy, or the suggestion that it isn't acceptable?

that all fans are drunken rowdy scum out for a fight and looking to ravish women and scare children. We aren't. Most of us a decent chaps just like you.

 

[BestWestern]

that all fans are drunken rowdy scum out for a fight and looking to ravish women and scare children. We aren't. Most of us a decent chaps just like you.

You've (intentionally, I presume?) misread what's been said. 'Rowdy', meaning loud, objectionable, intimidating. You've defended that numerous times. You appear now to be attempting to put words into people's mouths.

 

[DarloRich]

You've (intentionally, I presume?) misread what's been said. 'Rowdy', meaning loud, objectionable, intimidating. You've defended that numerous times. You appear now to be attempting to put words into people's mouths.

simply paraphrasing what has been said by you and others.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So somehow drunk football fans singing is "anti social" but drunk rugby fans singing is "brilliant", a "serenade" and "phenomenal" (all words I've read in news articles describing rugby fans signing on the train, potentially annoying and aggravating other travelers). Nothing like a good old double standard! If its anti social for one group then it is anti social for all groups.

Also this assumption that it is just intimidating "lads" that like to sing and chant at or on the way to or from football matches needs to disappear.

 

[BestWestern]

simply paraphrasing what has been said by you and others.

Well, sort of!

Let's do the hypothetical situation thing; you're enjoying your journey home from a game, in high spirits with some decent company. Let's be indulgent and say we're on some oldschool BR-built jalopy with a buffet (we won't specify who's operating it!), rather than Northern's finest Pacer with bus seats and no refreshing beverage facilities. The beer is flowing (that's the TOC's fault), the chaps are being rather boisterous, etc etc. The Guard comes along and asks you to go all civilised and hushed, because you're upsetting some non-football types. Let's say they're 'intimidated', to keep the theme going As a serious question, do you comply or object?

 

[DarloRich]

Well, sort of!

Let's do the hypothetical situation thing; you're enjoying your journey home from a game, in high spirits with some decent company. Let's be indulgent and say we're on some oldschool BR-built jalopy with a buffet (we won't specify who's operating it!), rather than Northern's finest Pacer with bus seats and no refreshing beverage facilities. The beer is flowing (that's the TOC's fault), the chaps are being rather boisterous, etc etc. The Guard comes along and asks you to go all civilised and hushed, because you're upsetting some non-football types. Let's say they're 'intimidated', to keep the theme going As a serious question, do you comply or object?

Yes. It wouldn't be as quiet the library that many of the sensitively eared RUK crowd would like and some of the language might remain a bit fruity at times but I have found that when I have challenged people causing a disturbance they generally comply especially if you point out there are women and kids about. It might help I am big northern bloke and not easily frightened (unlike many here) and very happy to use industrial language to make my point. In fact I have found that once issues are pointed out it is often the most tattooed meat headed looking guy who assumes the role of behaviour monitor and keeps the younger ones in check!

Bear in mind I am just a bloke not an employee with a power to insist that people behave.

PS I/we tend to take my own beer. It is better quality, cheaper and available when I want it

 

[BestWestern]

PS I/we tend to take my own beer. It is better quality, cheaper and available when I want it

Bloody scandallous what! Gerroff!

I do hope it's not Stella or we're going to have to do another round of judging and prejudices!

 

[DarloRich]

I do hope it's not Stella or we're going to have to do another round of judging and prejudices!

I would rather drink out of the toilet bowl!

 

[robbeech]

And still the major concentration of the thread focuses on noisy football fans with the majority ignoring the fact that other groups can be just as bad, or worse! But, when the agenda suits.....

Whilst I fully appreciate what you’re saying, the thread is about disruption caused by football fans, it was unlikely going to focus on the lyrical content of Bob Dylan’s Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands or the thoughts behind the font used on the end credits of early episodes of The Crystal Maze.

I agree there are a number of people that will fail to accept that any other groups of people (be it sporting events or otherwise) could possibly cause this sort of issue but I suppose the more we delve into posts about drunken idiots travelling home from the pub the more it could be deemed off topic.

It is 2018......I don't think women would like to be treated any different to anyone else. Very sexist comment.

Absolutely agree, however given there are often biases by this said minority of idiots towards being offensive to women then there are clear differences that must be adddressed to protect all concerned.

Why not challenge the situation then? Why meekly sit in the corner tutting

Sitting meekly in the corner tutting is likely to be one way to not end up with your face smashed in. Can you imagine a regular person challenging a group of these people? They’d have no teeth before they could finish the sentence.
It’s important to note I refer only to the handful of idiots that cause the real problems such as vandalism, theft, acts of violence just because they can. They’re not the sort of people that you can reason with so asking them to please be quiet is likely going to end up in a fight. Those doing a bit of singing and chanting are NOT the ones that are causing the problems, they are not responsible for this disruption that prompted this thread but as I’ve mentioned before they do sadly get wrongly grouped together and it is easier to do this if they are singing and chanting as the whole situation becomes uncomfortable for some people.

 

[methethpropbut]

Question - if there's a group of noisy, rowdy people on my train, is that an appropriate time to 61016?

 

[Robertj21a]

Why not challenge the situation then? Why meekly sit in the corner tutting. I guess unlike many here i am not easily cowed. Pointing out there are kids and women about usually brings a change in tone.

Ha Ha, highly amusing, you clearly don't know me !!.

I never said that I don't challenge them. Like you, I'm more than capable of dealing with other people and those who know me would certainly not expect me sit meekly anywhere.

My query was 'Why do normal travellers [i.e women, OAPs tc] have to put up with that' ?

 

[DarloRich]

Question - if there's a group of noisy, rowdy people on my train, is that an appropriate time to 61016?

not for the members of this board! That's what i do if I ask someone to stop behaving badly and they invite me to persist off.

Sitting meekly in the corner tutting is likely to be one way to not end up with your face smashed in. Can you imagine a regular person challenging a group of these people?

What am I? Superman? I am going to have to start wearing my pants on the outside of my trousers. My face, ugly as it is, is still fairly intact btw.

 

[robbeech]

What am I? Superman? I am going to have to start wearing my pants on the outside of my trousers. My face, ugly as it is, is still fairly intact btw.

You appear to have not quoted the clarification that I was talking about the minorities that would beat up their own grandmother for a laugh and NOT the vast majority of football fans that cause absolutely no issues at all.

 

[Domh245]

What am I? Superman? I am going to have to start wearing my pants on the outside of my trousers. My face, ugly as it is, is still fairly intact btw.

You aren't Superman, but you are a (by your own admission) ugly faced bloke, and presumably not of slight build. A petite lady (eg) won't necessarily have the confidence to confront, or effect that you have on, those groups.

 

[bb21]

Question - if there's a group of noisy, rowdy people on my train, is that an appropriate time to 61016?

If they behave in an intimidating way, yes.

 

[Steve Harris]

I see the West Ham players are getting in on the act to now.

 

[whhistle]

Pointing out there are kids and women about usually brings a change in tone.

Not that should make any difference.
Remember, we live in times of equality and thus if the boat is sinking, there's no "women and children only" rule any more.

Yes, it may be polite to do so, but does that mean the women and children are selfish?
I wonder if we'll ever get away from people valuing childrens lives more than someone who is 30 or 40. Furthermore, where does that age end? Is a 10 year olds life worth more than a 40 year old? What about 12? 13? 14?

Not a direct question to you, just a general observation.

 

[londiscape]

Leaving aside the real, threatening and violent or racist hooliganism which so far nobody has condoned in previous postings on this thread, and which I'm sure we all universally agree should be punished criminally for the minority engaging in such behaviour.... this is not the point here.

I do take issue with those who consider it acceptable to shout, sing or chant loudly and with foul language in public places shared with others who are not part of whatever sport or event is taking place. I was brought up to know that being loud or foul-mouthed in public is the height of bad manners and that nobody with a sense of class or decorum would not engage in such behaviour.

I'm not intimidated by it, or scared, but annoyed and disappointed that such behaviour is now considered acceptable and that those who object are lily-livered wimps. Do I think they should be hauled off to chokey? No, but I will look down on such behaviour and consider it to be representative of an upbringing that does not believe good manners are important, and is of low class.

Nothing specific to football (although I am not a fan of that particular game) and nothing to do with wealth or social standing - the same applies to racegoers, stag or hen parties etc. And as a rugby fan, I have been appalled at the behaviour exhibited by some of my fellow Welsh countrymen when an England match is on.

TL;DR - Don't shout and swear on the train. Keep it inside the stands if you must. If you can't you are an ill-mannered, uncouth and low class of person.

Unfortunately it seems I'm in a minority as the state of current society leads me to believe that manners and decorum don't matter anymore.

 

[muz379]

Personally i've travelled on football trains as a passenger and whilst chanting loudly and singing in a confined space is annoying I have never felt threatened just by virtue of football fans chanting . But I can see how the loud chanting could be frightening to children or other vulnerable people . I do think it is anti social to be chanting loudly in a confined space when not everyone in that confined space shares the same enthusiasm for the subject matter . Of course part and parcel of using public transport is accepting that inevitably there is going to be noise made by other travellers . And I apply this same approach be it football fans or youths playing music on their phones . If the noise or behaviour of those chanting is particularly loud of boisterous then I think staff are correct to ask them to tone it down for the comfort of other passengers .

As rail staff I have dealt with football fans fairly often . Just like dealing with other groups of people attending events experiences have varied massively from some rather horrendous situations to some cases when people travelling to a match have actually provided assistance in dealing with other disruptive passengers (I think mainly because they didn't want to miss kick off) . The times I have had problems pointing out that if I am not satisfied that the train can proceed safely I will hold the train and call assistance usually focusses their attention . People travelling in club colours seem to understand fairly well that if the BTP do turn up they will just get removed from the train not allowed to go to the match and that will ruin their day out . The problems I do experience with football fans seem to be fuelled by excess drink , which to me suggests that the fact that they have drunk too much and are with their mates is the driving factor behind their behaviour not the fact that they are a football fan . They probably behave inappropriately when on the train with their mates on a Saturday night when they have been out drinking all day and not been to a match .


In my experience there seems to be just as much if not more trouble with people attending race days ,ale trailers and general Saturday night drinkers .

As a side note a lot of people in this thread upset by stereotyping football fans . As someone who has zero interest in football I fairly often face serotypes as well , I feel your pain

 

[edwin_m]

You appear to have not quoted the clarification that I was talking about the minorities that would beat up tgejrvown grandmother for a laugh and NOT the vast majority of football fans that cause absolutely no issues at all.

And how does a train passenger know which they are dealing with? Challenging someone who is being rowdy carries a risk (probably not a high probability but enough to be a concern) that they will turn violent or single out the challenger for group mockery and intimidation.

 

[Class377]

But it's not 'just a bit of noise' is it ?

It's loud, usually drink-fuelled, swear-laden and intimidatory. It can ruin the trip for women and families.

Why do the 'normal' travellers have to put up with that

Except it isn't, is it?

I've traveled on dozens of trains back from the football and on every single one my experience has been people sat in their seats and not singing. Maybe a little bit of chatter that is slightly louder than normal, but certainly not sweary or intimidating others.

In fact, I'd wager the majority of people here have traveled on "football" services without realising it, because the fans have kept themselves to themselves and not caused an issue. If it's only 4 or 5 trains a weekend then that's clearly the minority (46 games a weekend, probably multiple services going there and back), but you get that with EVERY event or large group.

If the media didn't jump on the bandwagon of criticising football fans every time anything happened (as opposed to rugby, which many guards/stewards/police claim is MUCH worse than football, or racing, stag dos, hen dos, cricket etc.) then I imagine most people would consider it a bit of fun and let them get on with it.

There are many many reports available showing the arrest numbers at football are far lower than nearly every other major event (all the major music festivals, Notting Hill carnival, and so on), and given how heavy-handed policing is at football (I've known people to get arrested for throwing their bottle of water to the ground in frustration at football), that's pretty astonishing. Yes there are a small number of idiots who ruin it, and a slightly larger number who shout and get a bit lairy, but they'd do it at some other event if you cut it out for football.

The problem with public transport is that you have to share it with the public. Doesn't make their behaviour right, but you need to accept that it's not going to a library!

 

[Robertj21a]

Except it isn't, is it?

I've traveled on dozens of trains back from the football and on every single one my experience has been people sat in their seats and not singing. Maybe a little bit of chatter that is slightly louder than normal, but certainly not sweary or intimidating others.

In fact, I'd wager the majority of people here have traveled on "football" services without realising it, because the fans have kept themselves to themselves and not caused an issue. If it's only 4 or 5 trains a weekend then that's clearly the minority (46 games a weekend, probably multiple services going there and back), but you get that with EVERY event or large group.

If the media didn't jump on the bandwagon of criticising football fans every time anything happened (as opposed to rugby, which many guards/stewards/police claim is MUCH worse than football, or racing, stag dos, hen dos, cricket etc.) then I imagine most people would consider it a bit of fun and let them get on with it.

There are many many reports available showing the arrest numbers at football are far lower than nearly every other major event (all the major music festivals, Notting Hill carnival, and so on), and given how heavy-handed policing is at football (I've known people to get arrested for throwing their bottle of water to the ground in frustration at football), that's pretty astonishing. Yes there are a small number of idiots who ruin it, and a slightly larger number who shout and get a bit lairy, but they'd do it at some other event if you cut it out for football.

The problem with public transport is that you have to share it with the public. Doesn't make their behaviour right, but you need to accept that it's not going to a library!

My comment didn't relate to football fans.

 

[DarloRich]

My comment didn't relate to football fans.

to whom did it relate?

 

[al78]

Why should groups of people act a certain way to satisfy people who are apparently scared by noise

It doesn't say much for your argument if you have to erect a strawman instead of addressing the genuiine issue under debate.

 

[SPADTrap]

Expect dry trains when events are on the mainline now. Well done to those responsible.