Do we underuse our country branch lines for tourism?

[Bletchleyite]

Following on from a discussion here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hise-consultation.143104/page-77#post-3443359

I was thinking...do we underpromote our country branch lines as far as tourism goes? The thread discussed that a more tourist-friendly Sunday timetable increased passenger numbers.

Is it too hard to do a weekend break (out Friday after work, back Sunday afternoon) from one of our big cities to somewhere like Betws y Coed? I think it is - the timetable just doesn't allow for it.

Could more be done to promote this kind of thing? Would it make money or be non-viable?

Furthermore, could Swiss style "scenic" First Class be basically tourist money for old rope?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Following on from a discussion here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hise-consultation.143104/page-77#post-3443359

I was thinking...do we underpromote our country branch lines as far as tourism goes? The thread discussed that a more tourist-friendly Sunday timetable increased passenger numbers.

Is it too hard to do a weekend break (out Friday after work, back Sunday afternoon) from one of our big cities to somewhere like Betws y Coed? I think it is - the timetable just doesn't allow for it.

Could more be done to promote this kind of thing? Would it make money or be non-viable?

Furthermore, could Swiss style "scenic" First Class be basically tourist money for old rope?

The old railway supported the tourism industry - bespoke Saturday timetables in the summer. Extra and longer trains from population centers to coastal resorts, bespoke fares etc

We are yet to see if the new wales and borders franchise dares to break the cycle of "run it for the lowest possible cost you can even if its not fit for purpose- PS were to scared to close it" mentality.

Take one thing ATW Small Group Bookings. The blanket condition is applied on the Cambrian can't use before 1000 or from 1600 to 1829 on weekdays. Take a look at loading's on weekdays particularly in the winter months heading west from Shrewsbury in the AM and in Ceredigion / Gwynedd apart from the coast school trains. A more bespoke application of the eligibility criteria would help trade.

 

[northwichcat]

Delamere Forest has its' own station and is on a direct line from Manchester but from the Manchester direction the fares to Delamere aren't good value for money and the forest is also easy to access by car and while you have to pay for parking, that proves better value for money for most people with a car. It also doesn't help that some weekday trains don't go all the way to Manchester and a change at Stockport is required, or that the Sunday service is only 2 hourly. It can still get a significant number of people travelling by train for special events but better ticket promotions and service improvements could mean a lot more people travel by train.

 

[B&I]

Tourism could be crucial to branch lines unable to attract custom.by other means, particularly if Brexit leads to further growth in staycationing

 

[Starmill]

If you want to go to Betws-y-Coed on the train the timetable serves both day trips and weekend breaks very very poorly. Even if you wish to go there just for a few hours it's not very good because you have the choice of half an hour or 3 hours there.

 

[Starmill]

Delamere Forest has its' own station and is on a direct line from Manchester but from the Manchester direction the fares to Delamere aren't good value for money and the forest is also easy to access by car and while you have to pay for parking, that proves better value for money for most people with a car. It also doesn't help that some weekday trains don't go all the way to Manchester and a change at Stockport is required, or that the Sunday service is only 2 hourly. It can still get a significant number of people travelling by train for special events but better ticket promotions and service improvements could mean a lot more people travel by train.

I went walking with a friend a while ago in Delamere Forest on a late morning service on a Saturday. The train from Manchester was relatively busy as you'd imagine, and of course at that time Manchester and Chester City centres are heaving with shoppers. I was surprised that apart from us just one other person got off the train there.

 

[Mikey C]

Following on from a discussion here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hise-consultation.143104/page-77#post-3443359

I was thinking...do we underpromote our country branch lines as far as tourism goes? The thread discussed that a more tourist-friendly Sunday timetable increased passenger numbers.

Is it too hard to do a weekend break (out Friday after work, back Sunday afternoon) from one of our big cities to somewhere like Betws y Coed? I think it is - the timetable just doesn't allow for it.

Could more be done to promote this kind of thing? Would it make money or be non-viable?

Furthermore, could Swiss style "scenic" First Class be basically tourist money for old rope?

We have vast numbers of heritage railways, catering for this Swiss style market, whether just steam excursions, or trips with fine dining.

While there are some destinations where a better timetable might attract more visitors, it's hard to compete with the convenience of the car when visiting rural destinations.

By contrast, the railways must make plenty of money from weekend/day breaks to major cities.

 

[BRX]

With the will, loads more could be done with the lines in the north and west of scotland.

These are some of the most scenic journeys in Europe.

Travelling on rural lines in Switzerland just makes me embarrassed at how hopeless Scotland is in this regard.

 

[northwichcat]

With the will, loads more could be done with the lines in the north and west of scotland.

These are some of the most scenic journeys in Europe.

Travelling on rural lines in Switzerland just makes me embarrassed at how hopeless Scotland is in this regard.

Switzerland isn't on a par with any other country when it comes to railways, they could build HS2 with their spare change! Have you tried the very scenic Algeciras-Ronda-Granada line in Spain? Much of it is single track with the only passing points at stations meaning there's only something like 5 trains per day in each direction. Even in Germany direct trains from Munich (a city much bigger than Glasgow) to Fussen (for Neuschwanstein Castle - the biggest tourist attraction in Germany) are only 2 hourly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Switzerland isn't on a par with any other country when it comes to railways, they could build HS2 with their spare change! Have you tried the very scenic Algeciras-Ronda-Granada line in Spain? Much of it is single track with the only passing points at stations meaning there's only something like 5 trains per day in each direction. Even in Germany direct trains from Munich (a city much bigger than Glasgow) to Fussen (for Neuschwanstein Castle - the biggest tourist attraction in Germany) are only 2 hourly.

Germany typically operates much lower frequencies than the UK but it's mostly "im Takt" with planned connections, so even if your journey strings together a load of RegionalExpress trains you won't necessarily notice this.

My point was less about frequencies, though, and more about coverage of the day (e.g. no late evening services down to Betws/Blaenau on a Friday meaning it's useless for a weekend break) and about the use of very basic rolling stock rather than e.g. premium panoramic stock with First Class at a premium.

 

[edwin_m]

Community Rail Partnerships have made some difference in attracting passengers and by suggesting or even implementing measures to make the line more attractive. However they tend to be only things that have negligible cost to the operator or for which external funding can be found.

 

[hexagon789]

Following on from a discussion here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hise-consultation.143104/page-77#post-3443359

I was thinking...do we underpromote our country branch lines as far as tourism goes? The thread discussed that a more tourist-friendly Sunday timetable increased passenger numbers.

Is it too hard to do a weekend break (out Friday after work, back Sunday afternoon) from one of our big cities to somewhere like Betws y Coed? I think it is - the timetable just doesn't allow for it.

Could more be done to promote this kind of thing? Would it make money or be non-viable?

Furthermore, could Swiss style "scenic" First Class be basically tourist money for old rope?

I would definitely say that more could be done to promote such lines. Some of the well-known scenic lines are well promoted but there are scores of secondary and rural routes which are very pleasant to travel on and which serve places worth visiting but receive either no or little publicity and I think this needs to change, at the end of the day it would mean increased ticket revenue and potentially improved footfall for many businesses which can't be a bad thing.

 

[exile]

I'm sure the companies that own heritage trains would be keen to do more day trips of this type if there was a market for it, perhaps using refurbished pacers and sprinters once the latter start to be sold off by the TOCs. But is there enough demand to make this profitable?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure the companies that own heritage trains would be keen to do more day trips of this type if there was a market for it, perhaps using refurbished pacers and sprinters once the latter start to be sold off by the TOCs. But is there enough demand to make this profitable?

If you did it with existing service trains they would only have to be profitable in the sense of "bringing in more income than just operating a basic Class 150".

 

[gordonthemoron]

Perhaps they could start with Sunday services on the Marston Vale line?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps they could start with Sunday services on the Marston Vale line?

Bank Holiday services too. You can of course use the X5, but it's a faff ticketing-wise as well as if you cycle or drive to the station.

 

[Mag_seven]

With the will, loads more could be done with the lines in the north and west of scotland.

These are some of the most scenic journeys in Europe.

Travelling on rural lines in Switzerland just makes me embarrassed at how hopeless Scotland is in this regard.

I would like to see both the WHL and Kyle lines have their own dedicated rolling stock with "panorama" type windows, seats lining up with the windows and proper refreshment facilities. Trouble is I doubt it will ever happen.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I'm pleased that the Cumbrian Coast line is getting a Sunday service from May and I may well use it for weekend trips instead of driving.

One thing that could be done to promote weekend tourism would be to introduce Weekend Return tickets, priced the same as CDR Off-Peak Day Returns, allowing travel out on a Saturday and return on a Sunday. (Wouldn't work in TransPennine Express land though as they seem intent on abolishing CDRs!)

 

[InOban]

There seem to be plenty of people prepared to pay the economic cost of a steam train to mallaig (£35 RTN). Although I've no idea what level of track access charges they pay. But those fares are no use to local travellers. I think many posters seem to have a blind spot with regard to the level of subsidy that these rural routes require. Think of the money NR spend getting the Conway valley open after every flood.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Perhaps they could start with Sunday services on the Marston Vale line?

A Sunday service on this branch might well be a very good idea - but as a line to attract tourists? Really?

 

[XDM]

A Sunday service on this branch might well be a very good idea - but as a line to attract tourists? Really?

Yes. Two years running We have taken friends to walk up the hill from Ashley Guise station to Woburn Abbey & the safari park.
It is a fine 30 min walk & you can visit the grounds free as it is criss crossed with public footpaths which take you within touching distance( through a fence) of the wild animals.

 

[route:oxford]

The old railway supported the tourism industry - bespoke Saturday timetables in the summer. Extra and longer trains from population centers to coastal resorts, bespoke fares etc

The passage of time has clouded your memory.

Back in the 1980s and well into the 1990s, there was just one direct train a day from Stirling to Edinburgh on a Sunday - that definitely isn't supporting the tourist industry. These days, thanks to privatisation, Stirling has a half-hourly service to Edinburgh on a Sunday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm pleased that the Cumbrian Coast line is getting a Sunday service from May and I may well use it for weekend trips instead of driving.

One thing that could be done to promote weekend tourism would be to introduce Weekend Return tickets, priced the same as CDR Off-Peak Day Returns, allowing travel out on a Saturday and return on a Sunday. (Wouldn't work in TransPennine Express land though as they seem intent on abolishing CDRs!)

That's an interesting idea given that Saturday lunchtime to early afternoon is about the quietest time on the railway generally.

 

[Macwomble]

Do we underuse our country branch lines for tourism?

Short answer IMO is a resounding YES. I can only "speak" for Scotland where I do feel that both the West Highland Lines & the Far North Lines are very under promoted. Proper (aka Swiss syle) scenic coaches on these lines I think would do wonders for passenger numbers from around Easter to October each year.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The passage of time has clouded your memory.

Back in the 1980s and well into the 1990s, there was just one direct train a day from Stirling to Edinburgh on a Sunday - that definitely isn't supporting the tourist industry. These days, thanks to privatisation, Stirling has a half-hourly service to Edinburgh on a Sunday.

I was talking more 50's and 60's.

 

[BRX]

I would like to see both the WHL and Kyle lines have their own dedicated rolling stock with "panorama" type windows, seats lining up with the windows and proper refreshment facilities. Trouble is I doubt it will ever happen.

As well as the trains themselves though - useful connections with other trains, buses and ferries.

For example... we've all heard about Skye becoming an increasingly popular tourist destination. And one of Britain's greatest train journeys is the sleeper to Fort William. And there's a line from Fort William to Mallaig and there's a ferry to Skye from there. Have I see either CS or Scotrail promoting the idea that you could travel from London to Skye in this way? I don't think so. And if you do do it (which I do n and again) you find that all the connections seem to be set up to discourage you. Over two hours to kill in Fort William before the next train to Mallaig. Then seemingly no attempt to co-ordinate trains and ferries there. By the time you get onto the island most of the day has gone and good luck with onward bus connections from there. There's the steam train from Fort William to Mallaig of course, which actually times rather nicely with the sleeper arrival. But it won't be held if the sleeper is late and if you've booked onto it and that happens you'll lose your money.

In a parallel universe (such as switzerland) all these connections would be well integrated. And advertised. And you'd be able to buy a through ticket from London to Skye on the sleeper and the steam train. Which would have some arrangement for what happens if the sleeper's late. And by the way the new sleeper stock would be designed with panoramic windows and so on and maybe a couple of windows that you could open so that people could take photos. Like in Switzerland. It's not though; the design doesn't suggest to prospective travellers it'll travel through any particularly impressive scenery. And another thing - put into National Rail Enquiries that you want to travel from Fort William to Euston overnight and it'll advise you to get off the sleeper in Glasgow, wait there for several hours and get a Virgin train in the morning. Sometimes it seems like everything is set up to put off tourists from using the train as a means of getting to and around the Highlands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For example... we've all heard about Skye becoming an increasingly popular tourist destination. And one of Britain's greatest train journeys is the sleeper to Fort William. And there's a line from Fort William to Mallaig and there's a ferry to Skye from there. Have I see either CS or Scotrail promoting the idea that you could travel from London to Skye in this way?

TBH the easiest way to do it these days is to go to Kyle (which is just as good a journey, albeit with no Sleeper) and walk over the bridge

By the way, off the dedicated scenic stock SBB is surprisingly bad at giving a decent view - the windows on the IC2000 stock are tiny. The EW IVs have massive picture windows which are good (Voyager sized and some) but there's nowhere to lean out. I think the best views are to be had from the Stadler FLIRTs which have massive windows in the low floor section.

 

[al78]

TBH the easiest way to do it these days is to go to Kyle (which is just as good a journey, albeit with no Sleeper) and walk over the bridge

To get the Kyle of Lochalsh you would have to go via Inverness, so would likely be using the sleeper. I doubt you could do it without using the sleeper without spending the night in Inverness.

 

[mpthomson]

Tourism could be crucial to branch lines unable to attract custom.by other means, particularly if Brexit leads to further growth in staycationing

Said as someone who voted Remain; Yay, another Brexit scare story! Why on earth is Brexit going to make any difference to the number of people who holiday abroad? There won't be any visa requirements to travel to Spain after Brexit (just as one example), and many people holiday in places that aren't in the EU anyway. It's not even been raised as a possibility by anyone except slightly hysterical people who are predicting the end of civilisation as we know it post March 2019.

To address the original point, I think some lines do and others don't. There certainly doesn't appear to be a strategy regarding it.

 

[BRX]

TBH the easiest way to do it these days is to go to Kyle (which is just as good a journey, albeit with no Sleeper) and walk over the bridge

By the way, off the dedicated scenic stock SBB is surprisingly bad at giving a decent view - the windows on the IC2000 stock are tiny. The EW IVs have massive picture windows which are good (Voyager sized and some) but there's nowhere to lean out. I think the best views are to be had from the Stadler FLIRTs which have massive windows in the low floor section.

Kyle is easier, and not a bad journey at all, but not quite as good as the Mallaig route I'd say. But it can also be done via the sleeper. Of course on the Kyle line there *used* to be an attempt to make it tourist friendly when the observation car ran.

Agreed that the 'regular' Swiss stock is not much better than ours (although generally seats line up with windows). But those trains are more about getting between places quickly. The relevant comparison is with the narrow gauge lines I'd say. And one of the things that's so impressive is that despite them being privately run there is great integration with things like local buses. And if you're skiing, you can usually buy your ski pass at station offices, bits of local railway are included in passes, there are inclusive ski-pass/rail fares from the cities etc. Everything's set up to make the train easy to use if you're a visitor, instead of the opposite.