New Virgin Dvt and Mark 3's

[Bayum]

MCR247 is correct in everything he says.

It is not feasible to revert "a few diagrams" to locos + stock due to the slower top speed, and in particular on the Birmingham-Scotland services as it would simply not keep to time nor will it be able to go round corners as fast as 221s or 390s. You may be able to reduce the time deficit by short-forming, but then it would be as waste of time as you would be simply replacing a train of a similar capacity for a slower one.

And yes 15mins does make a difference - Eurostar shaved about 20mins off London-Paris/Brussels journey times when the first phase of HS1 opened which triggered an increase in passenger numbers.

The railway is not run for the benefit of trainspotters or for those who are stuck in the past, and some of the posters in this thread need a reality check.

I wanted to say something along the lines of that, but didn't know how...

In reality, the saved journey times for say - A Glaswegian working in Scotland, will be massive. If he made the journey daily, or even every three days, thats still (5 days - 2 and a half hours, 3 days - 90 minutes) cut off the time...

So thats quite a lot in that respect

 

[87031]

MCR247 is correct in everything he says.

It is not feasible to revert "a few diagrams" to locos + stock due to the slower top speed, and in particular on the Birmingham-Scotland services as it would simply not keep to time nor will it be able to go round corners as fast as 221s or 390s. You may be able to reduce the time deficit by short-forming, but then it would be as waste of time as you would be simply replacing a train of a similar capacity for a slower one.

And yes 15mins does make a difference - Eurostar shaved about 20mins off London-Paris/Brussels journey times when the first phase of HS1 opened which triggered an increase in passenger numbers.

The railway is not run for the benefit of trainspotters or for those who are stuck in the past, and some of the posters in this thread need a reality check.

i am aware the railways are not run for trainspotters ( im not one either!) it amazes me how you can defend Voyagers there simply not up to standard for long distance journeys, they smell there noisy and are poorly designed i cant think of 1 good thing about them, i think you need the reality check ! Who gives a stuff if they can go round corners fast, no wonder Cross Country spent money on the HSTs they know as well as everyone else there a far superior in every department .

 

[MCR247]

i am aware the railways are not run for trainspotters ( im not one either!) it amazes me how you can defend Voyagers there simply not up to standard for long distance journeys, they smell there noisy and are poorly designed i cant think of 1 good thing about them, i think you need the reality check ! Who gives a stuff if they can go round corners fast, no wonder Cross Country spent money on the HSTs they know as well as everyone else there a far superior in every department .

Yes they are not up to standard, but for some, Vt replacing a vomiter with LHCS by choice could mean them having to leave an 1 hour earlier! If Joe bloggs has to make a connection every morning to get to work, and VT have decided to put LHCS on, and its 15 minutes late, he would have to get the earlier train! so because of some train enthusiasts who do like voyagers dont think about anyones life, some poor bloke might have to get up earlier, which means going to bed earlier, which means one less our with mrs bloggs and Jr Bloggs and Georgia bloggs that he hardly saw before anyway because of commuting. Then the worst bit is, is that the enthusiasts have a choice togo on the train or not, whereas he needs the job! So that 1 reason why enthusiasts shouldnt run the railways[/rant]

 

[Jordy]

Can anyone confirm if/when the daily EUS-BHM runs with this set will finish?

 

[LouJ]

This week was reportedly the last according to staff on the train yesterday.

 

[alex57601]

i am aware the railways are not run for trainspotters ( im not one either!) it amazes me how you can defend Voyagers there simply not up to standard for long distance journeys, they smell there noisy and are poorly designed i cant think of 1 good thing about them, i think you need the reality check ! Who gives a stuff if they can go round corners fast, no wonder Cross Country spent money on the HSTs they know as well as everyone else there a far superior in every department .

Sorry, but the important factor is time. 221s and 390s can run at faster speeds and get up to high speeds faster than their loco + stock equivalents. Yes they have their flaws, but the positives outweigh these.

And if you can present Virgin a good case on why HSTs are superior in every department with your crank hat off I would like to see it. It would make all the OHL renewals a waste of time. :roll:

 

[Royston Vasey]

MCR247 (and others)... you've hit the nail on the head.

I'd be interested how often the Voyager/Pendolino detractors on here actually use them regularly for long journeys, less still journeys where they actually need to get to the other end at a certain time, for business or commuting. I would go as far as to say that many probably have been on them only a handful of times, if at all.

This is not to say that the XC (and FGW, GNER/NXEC) HST refurbishment and re-engineering is a bad thing; these are long, 125 mph, reliable, comfortable trains and ideal for business and leisure. But when LHCS is hauled by a sub-standard locomotive prone to failure, it's a no-brainer. Virgin using 90-hauled LHCS (at no fault of their own) is both an anachronism and deleterious to overall service.

Speed and reliability is everything.

 

[87031]

Sorry, but the important factor is time. 221s and 390s can run at faster speeds and get up to high speeds faster than their loco + stock equivalents. Yes they have their flaws, but the positives outweigh these.

And if you can present Virgin a good case on why HSTs are superior in every department with your crank hat off I would like to see it. It would make all the OHL renewals a waste of time. :roll:

i blame the cheap airline mentality of the TOCs they dont care whether the customer is travelling in comfort therefore Cheap nasty plastic trains are built where there is no emphasis based on the interior, just an obsession with shaving jorney times but no attention paid to the finer points. Shorter journey times are an obvious improvement but it didnt have to be at the expense of comfort and better passenger enviroment, The railways deserve better than Voyagers, the concept is right but the design is flawed in many ways and time will tell on whether there reliabilty stands the test of time.

 

[The Planner]

Yes, but the TOCs obsession with journey times is DfT led !! TOCs would rather have longer journey times padded out to death as it costs them less in schedule 4 and 8 payments as they are guarenteed to hit the magical 5 or 10 minute barrier for PPM.

 

[johnb]

Yes, but the TOCs obsession with journey times is DfT led !! TOCs would rather have longer journey times padded out to death as it costs them less in schedule 4 and 8 payments as they are guarenteed to hit the magical 5 or 10 minute barrier for PPM.

...and non-spotter passengers would rather be able to plan their journeys to know the 0830 train will *certainly* arrive at 1100 for their important meeting, rather than knowing that the 0900 train *might* arrive at 1100 but is actually 30 minutes late twice a week (see: the old XC timetable).

 

[Pumbaa]

This week was reportedly the last according to staff on the train yesterday.

Confimed too by staff today on the 1443.

 

[asylumxl]

A train is a mode of transport. Some people (like myself) actually use them to go places and to commute to work. I really don't understand the obsession with LHCS. There was a reason they were phased out.

People are always complaining about cheap plastic units? You prefer 70/80s plastic to modern plastics? The Voyager family has larger windows than the MK3s, I don't find the seats uncomfortable at all (at around 6ft 3in), and hell, I've never been on one that smells of feces like people claim.

The flaws of the Voyager family are purely down to the DfT specifying idiotic train lengths, and rushing Bombardier to complete them. The 222 has been rated as one of the most comfortable, well designed trains in the UK, and is what the 220s and 221s would have been given the time to be done properly.

Don't get me wrong, Virgin's DVT and MK3s look lovely, but they are no comparison for the 220/221/390s. Badly designed for rail enthusiasts, fine as a mode of transport.

 

[ukrob]

i am aware the railways are not run for trainspotters

I don't think that you are because you keep ignoring the points being made to you and banging on about how LHCS is 'better' and 'less plastic'.

 

[Daimler]

Don't get me wrong, Virgin's DVT and MK3s look lovely, but they are no comparison for the 220/221/390s. Badly designed for rail enthusiasts, fine as a mode of transport.

That is your opinion. I (and others I know and know of - not by any means all enthusiasts) find the Voyagers and Pendolinos frankly inadequate for the journeys expected of them. The Voyagers are noisy, smelly, and cramped, the Pendolinos flimsy, smelly, and cramped.

This is seen not from a rail enthusiast's point of view - people like a clean (no bad smells!), refined, and spacious train. The Pendolinos and Voyagers do not offer this! This has been reflected in surveys, which have shown the Pendolinos to be the least popular intercity trains in Britain from the point of view of the travelling public - way behind those Mk3s that you claim are 'no comparison' as 'a mode of transport'. The 220s/221s fared pretty poorly also.

I'm not saying this because I believe a loco and coaches is always automatically better - though there is a lot to be said, when it comes to diesel power, for separating the noisy power unit from the passenger compartment. I just don't feel that anyone can justifiably say there is 'no comparison' when it comes to 390s/220s/221s and Mk3s. I also think the whole concept of tilting trains (with their necessarily narrower body profiles) is flawed with our relatively small loading gauge - and in my opinion the relatively minor advantages are insufficient when measured against the forcibly cramped interior.

As I have said more than once, this isn't a 'locos are best' argument - give me a luxurious, spacious, light, and comfortable modern EMU, and I'm happy to travel on it - the class 444 springs to mind - longer, and with 125mph capability (and possibly some interior modifications to make it more suited to long distance travel), it would make an excellent successor to the shocking Pendolinos.

 

[MCR247]

Your telling me a pendolino is flimsy, that says it all :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

it would make an excellent successor to the shocking Pendolinos.

In your opinion!

 

[ukrob]

That is your opinion. I (and others I know and know of - not by any means all enthusiasts) find the Voyagers and Pendolinos frankly inadequate for the journeys expected of them. The Voyagers are noisy, smelly, and cramped, the Pendolinos flimsy, smelly, and cramped.

I think you just lost any argument you had by calling a Pendolino 'flimsy'.

 

[The Planner]

the class 444 springs to mind - longer, and with 125mph capability (and possibly some interior modifications to make it more suited to long distance travel), it would make an excellent successor to the shocking Pendolinos.

Unless it tilts, it would be an awful successor to the Pendo....

 

[devon_metro]

Desiro bodyshells are not permitted over 100mph anyway, as they are prone to collapse!

 

[87031]

That is your opinion. I (and others I know and know of - not by any means all enthusiasts) find the Voyagers and Pendolinos frankly inadequate for the journeys expected of them. The Voyagers are noisy, smelly, and cramped, the Pendolinos flimsy, smelly, and cramped.

This is seen not from a rail enthusiast's point of view - people like a clean (no bad smells!), refined, and spacious train. The Pendolinos and Voyagers do not offer this! This has been reflected in surveys, which have shown the Pendolinos to be the least popular intercity trains in Britain from the point of view of the travelling public - way behind those Mk3s that you claim are 'no comparison' as 'a mode of transport'. The 220s/221s fared pretty poorly also.

I'm not saying this because I believe a loco and coaches is always automatically better - though there is a lot to be said, when it comes to diesel power, for separating the noisy power unit from the passenger compartment. I just don't feel that anyone can justifiably say there is 'no comparison' when it comes to 390s/220s/221s and Mk3s. I also think the whole concept of tilting trains (with their necessarily narrower body profiles) is flawed with our relatively small loading gauge - and in my opinion the relatively minor advantages are insufficient when measured against the forcibly cramped interior.

As I have said more than once, this isn't a 'locos are best' argument - give me a luxurious, spacious, light, and comfortable modern EMU, and I'm happy to travel on it - the class 444 springs to mind - longer, and with 125mph capability (and possibly some interior modifications to make it more suited to long distance travel), it would make an excellent successor to the shocking Pendolinos.

Well said i couldnt agree more Virgin made a bad choice in the Pendolino and the voyagers are worse. People think just because we slag the new trains off is because where LHCS junkies, its simply not that, i love HSTs they are the complete package. The problem with the new stuff is that it's badly designed in terms of seating arrangements and comfort, Voyagers are just too noisy, who wants to sit on train for 5 hours or more listening to the engine! New trains should of been designed with every
thing which is good about MK3s but with improved safety features. These are trains not planes on rails, the design of them is flawed in so many ways and the negatives far outweigh any positives....only good points are safety and speed. Thats me finished on the subject but its good to know that there are many people not just "Trainspotters" who do not rate Pendos and Voyagers at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you just lost any argument you had by calling a Pendolino 'flimsy'.

i think he means the interior!....Greyrigg proved how safe it was....the rest of it sucks

 

[route:oxford]

i blame the cheap airline mentality of the TOCs they dont care whether the customer is travelling in comfort therefore Cheap nasty plastic trains are built where there is no emphasis based on the interior, just an obsession with shaving jorney times but no attention paid to the finer points. Shorter journey times are an obvious improvement but it didnt have to be at the expense of comfort and better passenger enviroment, The railways deserve better than Voyagers, the concept is right but the design is flawed in many ways and time will tell on whether there reliabilty stands the test of time.

The finer point being that the train now beats the domestic flight hands down.

Why suffer the Heathrow/Birmingham experience or the guaranteed rough landing at Edinburgh airport when you can sit on a seat that is far more comfortable than the airport coach, the standard airport lounge or the 3 abreast domestic flight seat.

The seating is far superior to what was run on the West Coast by BR in the 90s. I still remember an 8 hour journey from Glasgow Central to Oxford in the early 90s The seat had "wings" at shoulder height - ok if you were 5'7"ish but I'm well over 6'0" tall as was the chap I was travelling with and our shoulders wouldn't fit between the "wings". Journey from hell.

 

[87015]

Good luck finding a direct train from Glasgow to Oxford in todays timetables!

 

[asylumxl]

New trains should of been designed with every
thing which is good about MK3s but with improved safety features.

Oh? Modern trains should be designed around MK3 shells? What like the Class 180 ? Wonderfully reliable train that.

 

[87015]

Oh? Modern trains should be designed around MK3 shells? What like the Class 180 ? Wonderfully reliable train that.

Don't think much of the bits that go wring have much in common with a Mk3 coach somehow?

 

[asylumxl]

Don't think much of the bits that go wring have much in common with a Mk3 coach somehow?

I know, but on the other hand, they don't have the best passenger satisfaction either interior wise.

 

[route:oxford]

Good luck finding a direct train from Glasgow to Oxford in todays timetables!

Very true, however 5h15m with one change at Wolverhampton isn't too shabby.

There is still the option of a direct service to/from Edinburgh to Oxford - just a shame it goes the long way round.

 

[MCR247]

i think he means the interior!....Greyrigg proved how safe it was....the rest of it sucks

So all of the seats and tables fell on people and stuff did they..? When I saw the pics, everything was in place

 

[Daimler]

Your telling me a pendolino is flimsy, that says it all :roll:

Says it all about what? Indeed I am, in the sense that at high speeds (though having said that, not even those it was designed for) it rattles like a ageing bus inside. Not the sort of experience 'customers' want - I'm not questioning the safety of the Pendolino, merely the 'customer' (how I hate that word!) experience.

In your opinion!

A fair point, I guess!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you just lost any argument you had by calling a Pendolino 'flimsy'.

A misunderstanding over what I meant - see above!

 

[MCR247]

Says it all about what? Indeed I am, in the sense that at high speeds (though having said that, not even those it was designed for) it rattles like a ageing bus inside. Not the sort of experience 'customers' want.

Oh right I see what you mean, although I was told by VT staff that it was the window blinds, although I'm not conpletely sure

 

[route:oxford]

Desiro bodyshells are not permitted over 100mph anyway, as they are prone to collapse!

That's terrible.

Over 80 years ago the railways were able to run wooden coaches at 125mph on jointed track and yet a modern Desiro unit is prone to Collapse?

Why are they prone to Collapse?

Have any collapsed in service in the UK, was anyone injured?

Should the "Daily Mail" be told in order that they can demand that they be banned from the network?

 

[90019]

The Voyagers are noisy, smelly, and cramped

Having spent a fair amount of time on both Voyagers and Mk3s recently, the Voyagers were much better trains. They aren't draughty like the mk3s, the ride is much smoother and they don't crash over jointed track like the mk3s do, the seats are comfier in the Voyagers than the old mk3 seats, which make my back hurt, incidentally, the Voyagers have bigger windows and the interior feels brighter, the doors are much easier when you're carrying luggage, the doors at the end of the coaches aren't constantly opening if there's someone in the vestibule, the mk3 pre-refurb interiors are revolting and uncomfortable, despite complaints from others, and sitting near the toilets on Voyagers, they didn't smell, the vibrations weren't intrusive, and most of the time i didn't notice them.

I like HSTs, but not as a vehicle to get me from A to B. I much prefer the Voyagers for that.
As others have said, this is just my opinion, and it's not going to change, despite however many times anyone tries to convince me that their beloved Mk3s are better, for me, they're not.