New Virgin Dvt and Mark 3's

[Daimler]

Having spent a fair amount of time on both Voyagers and Mk3s recently, the Voyagers were much better trains.

I'm afraid I disagree wholeheartedly - I'll try and address things below!

They aren't draughty like the mk3s

A fair point. I'll denounce myself as an 'imbecilic rail enthusiast' unaware of what the travelling public wants by saying I like having the ability to access fresh air myself , but I'll agree a sealed compartment is better.

the ride is much smoother and they don't crash over jointed track like the mk3s do

I've always found the ride in well-maintained Mk3s exceptionally good.

the seats are comfier in the Voyagers than the old mk3 seats

So you find. I believe the exact opposite - and I intensely dislike having that huge tombstone of a seatback invading the air directly in front of my face, giving what seems to me to be a dark, dingy and claustrophobic feel to the train interior.

incidentally, the Voyagers have bigger windows and the interior feels brighter

They may have bigger windows, but the window-seat alignment is so poor passengers don't profit from it in any way. Again, I'd argue the high-backed seats make the train feel dark and dingy to those unfortunate enough to find themselves next to a pillar in an airline seat (with those tapering bodysides accentuating the feeling of claustrophobia). An as-built Mk3 coach does 'brightness' even better, with the low seats and 100% tables-lining-up-with-windows seating arrangement ensuring maximum light enters the vehicle - and as a by-product, allowing passengers to find empty seats far more easily as a result of the open-plan table layout.

the doors are much easier when you're carrying luggage, the doors at the end of the coaches aren't constantly opening if there's someone in the vestibule

I can't argue with that. Electric exterior doors are far superior, and the vestibule doors on Mk3s are quite incredibly annoying!

the mk3 pre-refurb interiors are revolting and uncomfortable, despite complaints from others

Revolting in terms of style? On GNER, maybe. FGW pre-major refurb I always found rather tasteful. Ex-Virgin stock fares rather well too. Besides, you wouldn't say a house was inadequate if you didn't like the upholstery on the furniture in the living room - I'll agree GNER's unrefurbed HSTs' interior 'colour scheme' was awful, but that is easy changed. With regards to comfort, I've given my opinion above!

and sitting near the toilets on Voyagers, they didn't smell

You must have been pretty lucky! The Voyager/Pendolino toilet issue is well-documented! Having said that, I think the Mk3 method of allowing effluent out onto the track is not really any better.

the vibrations weren't intrusive, and most of the time i didn't notice them.

Hmm. I do, I'm afraid, and I find the engine noise irritating as well. The soft hum of air-con is all I find acceptable in a train interior.

I like HSTs, but not as a vehicle to get me from A to B. I much prefer the Voyagers for that.

So I see! I don't, and the 220s/221s' poor showing in satisfaction surveys (though the 222s showed a dramatic improvement on them) would suggest they're not beloved by many passengers travelling on them!

I don't know if you read Modern Railways magazine? If so, Ian Walmsley's articles correspond best to my views on what new rolling stock should offer. I can't remember which article it was (though I have it at home somewhere!), but in one issue he carried out a detailed analysis of what we need in new intercity stock - I agreed with every word of it, as comfort was made the priority!

Lengthy reply, I'm afraid!

 

[ukrob]

You must have been pretty lucky! The Voyager/Pendolino toilet issue is well-documented! Having said that, I think the Mk3 method of allowing effluent out onto the track is not really any better.

No, it was a big issue, it isn't any more but it is carried on by enthusiasts who prefer the trains the Pendolinos and Voyagers replaced.

 

[Daimler]

No, it was a big issue, it isn't any more but it is carried on by enthusiasts who prefer the trains the Pendolinos and Voyagers replaced.

I haven't been on one since February, so if it's been resolved since then, that's a good thing, and about time too!

More recently though, I've been walking past Pendolinos and noticed an appalling smell of...erm...'toilet'...coming from the the train actually outside the vehicle. Not nice either.

 

[MCR247]

Daimler: I had a table on a MK3 and if I looked exactly left, what did I find? A pillar! So not quite 100% then is it

 

[87015]

Daimler: I had a table on a MK3 and if I looked exactly left, what did I find? A pillar! So not quite 100% then is it

Although no Mk3 seats have to be pointed out as "no/limited view" in official PR...

 

[90019]

A fair point. I'll denounce myself as an 'imbecilic rail enthusiast' unaware of what the travelling public wants by saying I like having the ability to access fresh air myself , but I'll agree a sealed compartment is better.

Oh, for a short trip, just for fun with a friend, I do enjoy being at the door of a Mk3 (and the Mk2s on the Fife Circle too, although the windows by the seats in them are horrible and you can't see through them very well ), but for a longer trip, I just don't like them at all, and given the choice, would go for the Voyager.

They may have bigger windows, but the window-seat alignment is so poor passengers don't profit from it in any way. Again, I'd argue the high-backed seats make the train feel dark and dingy to those unfortunate enough to find themselves next to a pillar in an airline seat (with those tapering bodysides accentuating the feeling of claustrophobia). An as-built Mk3 coach does 'brightness' even better, with the low seats and 100% tables-lining-up-with-windows seating arrangement ensuring maximum light enters the vehicle - and as a by-product, allowing passengers to find empty seats far more easily as a result of the open-plan table layout.

Having been in an airline seat with a limited view, with someone sitting next to me (that I didn't know) for 4 hours, I didn't mind it at all, just got on with doing other things instead. (You have to bear in mind that I'm claustrophobic, it's one of the reasons I dislike flying.)
The tapered profile caused no problems either, and meant it was slighty comfier to lean against anyway.
I don't like low seats in general (the exception being the 156s on the WHL), I prefer the way it feels a bit more private with the higher seats, but I find that the ones on Voyagers are just the right height so that I can still see around if I want to.

Revolting in terms of style? On GNER, maybe. FGW pre-major refurb I always found rather tasteful. Ex-Virgin stock fares rather well too. Besides, you wouldn't say a house was inadequate if you didn't like the upholstery on the furniture in the living room - I'll agree GNER's unrefurbed HSTs' interior 'colour scheme' was awful, but that is easy changed. With regards to comfort, I've given my opinion above!

Just a horrible style in general, the GNER colours were pretty bad, but it was just the general style of the coaches, I can't really explain it properly, but I just don't like them.

 

[87031]

u can stick your head out of a Mk3 though the ultimate draught!

 

[asylumxl]

u can stick your head out of a Mk3 though the ultimate draught!

Good way to get decapitated too.

 

[krus_aragon]

That's terrible.

Over 80 years ago the railways were able to run wooden coaches at 125mph on jointed track and yet a modern Desiro unit is prone to Collapse?

Why are they prone to Collapse?

Have any collapsed in service in the UK, was anyone injured?

Should the "Daily Mail" be told in order that they can demand that they be banned from the network?

No, we should tell them that pacers are prone to collapse at 100mph!

 

[asylumxl]

No, we should tell them that pacers are prone to collapse at 100mph!

A 100mph pacer... That'd be scary.

Besides, they are prone to collapse at low speeds and even at rest

 

[The_Stig]

I was on an HST with Mk3's and I was sooooooooo thrilled.

it was around 2-3hrs into the 5 hour journey that we all realised we were a bit hot, we said to the on-board staff and the lassie did try to deal with it but the air con on our coach was goosed!

Luckily, humpfh, a freight train broke down right in front of us. We had nowhere to go. The empty seats that were on the train in other coaches filled (except the smoking coach) and with little breeze from the door windows made the wait unbearable. lucky it was mid August

I still love those Mk3's. When we got going again the thrill of sticking your head out the window was incredible! Just don't stick it out too far!

 

[yorksrob]

I love the Mk 3s, lovely comfy trains. That said the journey's I've had on Pendelino's and Voyagers have usually been perfectly pleasant as well. I think the main problems arise when these trains are overcrowded - in which case bringing back a few Mk3's would seem a perfectly pragmatic and cost effective option to tackle this. I think it's a mistake to assume that speed is the only consideration of passengers. Ability to find a seat, reasonable fare and reliability are also high priorities.

 

[87031]

try telling that to Virgin Trains

 

[MCR247]

but why would the price change if you swapped a pendo for mark 3s? :? But they've got more pendos coming anyway, so they may help get rid of overcrowding

 

[Geezertronic]

But they've got more pendos coming anyway, so they may help get rid of overcrowding

They are lengthening 31 Pendolino's to 11 cars but only ordering 4 more Pendolino sets which should only compliment the existing fleet (which has already been one down since Grayrigg).

 

[MCR247]

Yes, but the extra coaches might help get rid of some overcrowding

 

[yorksrob]

try telling that to Virgin Trains

You never know - perhaps some of them might be reading

"but why would the price change if you swapped a pendo for mark 3s?"

I wasn't saying the price would change - merely pointing out that speed isn't the only consideration for most passengers. I'm not suggesting Virgin replaces it's Pendelino's with Mk 3's, rather that if there aren't enough Pendelino's to meet demand, I'd prefer to get a seat on a slower older train than travel more quickly in a vestibule. For ths reason having a few Mk 3's about seems like a very good idea.