South Wales 'Metro' updates

[MarkyT]

Manchester replaced high-floor AB trams with high-floor non-AB trams for reasons of reliability and maintainability. Midland Metro also replaced AB with non-AB; the old ones were mixed-floor but I'm not sure whether the replacements are uniformly low- or mixed-floor.

Current Midland Metro cars are CAF Urbos 3 design. I think they are 100% low floor.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Ive found some hand written notes i have (from 2002- marked in confidence T Clift/ C Gibb Cardiff RPC presentation) on what we now call CASR and the rational behind the turn-back plans.

• Key issue of overcrowding at Peak times - limiting growth and effectiveness of system.
• Frequencies being built on from initial 1980's revamp ( 8 tph through Queen St initially) now (2002) 12 tph.
• Point reached that any further frequency increases needs infrastructure work.
• 75% of Valley Lines traffic is contained with in the core of Barry/Penarth-central Cardiff- Caerphilly/Pontypridd.
• Adding carriages the whole way (to the Heads of Valleys stations) felt to be wasteful.
• Barry Island anomalous in terms of network as traffic is heavily skewed to summer months/weekends despite being 7th busiest station on network is not heavily used on normal weekdays.

Turnbacks at Barry/Caerphilly/ Pontypridd will allow core of network used by 75% of traffic to have turn up and go frequencies and extra carriages at peak times ( AM and PM peak weekdays/ events Millennium Stadium) with most efficient use of resources.

Off Peak Frequency
4 tph Cardiff Queen St to Cardiff Bay. 1 diagram.

2 tph Coryton to Radyr 3 diagrams.

2 tph Rhymeny to Penarth. 7 diagrams.
2 tph Bargoed to Penarth. 5 diagrams.
(gives 4 tph Bargoed to Penarth)

2 tph Merthyr to Brigend via Barry. 9 diagrams.
2 tph Aberdare to Barry Island. 7 diagrams.
2 tph Treherbert to Cardiff Central. 5 diagrams.
(gives 4 tph Abercynon to Barry/ 6 tph Pontypridd to Cardiff)
37 diagrams off peak.

Peak Changes/ Additions.
2 tph Treherbert to Cardiff Central service extended to Barry. Needs 1 extra diagram.
(gives 6 tph Cardiff to Barry)

4 tph Cardiff Queen St to Cardiff Bay. 1 diagram. becomes -

2 tph Caerphilly to Cardiff Bay. 2 extra diagrams
(gives 6 tph Caerphilly to Cardiff).

2 tph Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay. 2 extra diagrams
(gives 8 tph Pontypridd to Cardiff)

Merthyr to Bridgend service via Barry misses smaller stations between Trefforest and Barry in peak.
42 diagrams peak.

Further to above -
Siting the the RCT/Merthyr turnback at Porth in the Rhondda was looked at as was Barry Island for the Vale of Glamorgan. Both were rejected for much the same reasons i.e would involve an extra unit and crew, the physical works were more expensive as well a non platform turnback was needed in the Rhondda as Porth is where the line singles and services are timed to cross there and the Barry Island branch would need to be redoubled whereas there were accessible disused platforms at Barry and Pontypridd.

Overall the plan would deliver a third more capacity into central Cardiff from the UA's North and South of it at peak times covering the majority of the traffic generating centers.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What's this? A sensible, workable plan, with the necessary infrastructure upgrade work paid for and delivered, and that is ready to use immediately when the extra trains needed become available?

We can't possibly have a successful rail infrastructure upgrade project in operation in Wales that was paid for and delivered by Westminster controlled Network Rail. No, it must be written off so that a world class, transformative, exciting, made in Wales 'solution' can be delivered.

(I'm parodying the spin and rhetoric of Welsh Govt Economy and Infrastructure minister Ken Skates, for any confused English members who don't get it)

It was actually Made in Wales too emanating from the late Tom Clift - a professional railwayman from Abercynon who spent his life using or working on the Valleys network. It was not a politicians, academics or a Crayonista's plan. Tom didn't stay to join ATW in 2003 and ended up MD of Grand Central before his early death. It was also backed by Chris Gibb who is well respected in the industry.

Just got my copy of the latest RAIL- Christina Wolmars piece is essentially arguing that a lot of the current problems in the UK are down to "the wrong sort of people pulling the levers in the signalbox" i.e Politicians who don't understand their ministerial brief and generalist civil servants. He argues for a independent arms length BR with 5 year funding cycles. One can see the same problems in Wales , decisions are not being made by professional railwayman and poor decisions like "core valley lines" and splitting cross city journeys are being justified not on transport grounds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester replaced high-floor AB trams with high-floor non-AB trams for reasons of reliability and maintainability. Midland Metro also replaced AB with non-AB; the old ones were mixed-floor but I'm not sure whether the replacements are uniformly low- or mixed-floor.

All low, but that's probably because that is now the convention for street tramways because of advancing technology.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just got my copy of the latest RAIL- Christina Wolmars piece is essentially arguing that a lot of the current problems in the UK are down to "the wrong sort of people pulling the levers in the signalbox" i.e Politicians who don't understand their ministerial brief and generalist civil servants. He argues for a independent arms length BR with 5 year funding cycles. One can see the same problems in Wales , decisions are not being made by professional railwayman and poor decisions like "core valley lines" and splitting cross city journeys are being justified not on transport grounds.

Personally, I'd rather decisions were made by *transport planners* not *railwaymen*. You'll get a good railway if railwaymen make a decision, but what I want is a good unified public transport (and cycling and pedestrian) network, not just a railway. Public transport, walking and cycling united against the car, not modes against each other.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Personally, I'd rather decisions were made by *transport planners* not *railwaymen*. You'll get a good railway if railwaymen make a decision, but what I want is a good unified public transport (and cycling and pedestrian) network, not just a railway. Public transport, walking and cycling united against the car, not modes against each other.

Mark Berrys South Wales Metro proposal at least attempted to address those themes but its subsequent take over by politicians/ civil servants has been a disappointment to say the least particularly the way the political priority of gaining control from Westminster is driving the "Core Valley Lines" (which is a highly misleading term anyway) and the loss of cross city services. What were ending up with is the professional railway man's plan has failed to be implemented having supposedly been surpassed by the academic Transport planners plan who in turn is seeing his plans pulled apart by politicians and only partly implemented. Its like deciding to build an extension on your house, changing plans half way through building it and then converting part of it to a conservatory and leaving the rest of it with a makeover from changing rooms.

Its becoming the worst of all worlds nether one thing or another. No longer an efficient cross city Heavy Rail suburban service nor an integrated Light Rail network for the region. There will not be any improvements to see until at least 2021 and latter on some part of Core Valley Lines. We should have been using CASR as soon as it was complete - as Ive outlined your looking at covering all of 5 diagrams to implement it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Further to above -
Siting the the RCT/Merthyr turnback at Porth in the Rhondda was looked at as was Barry Island for the Vale of Glamorgan. Both were rejected for much the same reasons i.e would involve an extra unit and crew, the physical works were more expensive as well a non platform turnback was needed in the Rhondda as Porth is where the line singles and services are timed to cross there and the Barry Island branch would need to be redoubled whereas there were accessible disused platforms at Barry and Pontypridd.

In terms of Porth at least, I'd have thought that wouldn't have been too difficult before they built the carpark on the land where the old Maerdy branch diverged! Guess you still have the unit and crew issues though, which still exist to this day (as you know, I have complained before about the fact NR lengthened platforms to 6 car ages ago now but there aren't the units to take advantage of that).

 

[Gareth Marston]

In terms of Porth at least, I'd have thought that wouldn't have been too difficult before they built the carpark on the land where the old Maerdy branch diverged! Guess you still have the unit and crew issues though, which still exist to this day (as you know, I have complained before about the fact NR lengthened platforms to 6 car ages ago now but there aren't the units to take advantage of that).

Yes the 6 car platform lengths were another ill thought through political intervention from WG.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well folks its the end of February today and no sign of the transfer from NR to WG of "Core Valley Lines" as promised.

 

[TheSeeker]

Well folks its the end of February today and no sign of the transfer from NR to WG of "Core Valley Lines" as promised.

"Department for Transport and Welsh Government agree transfer of responsibility for Wales and Borders franchise. Needs parliamentary approval. DfT to provide an extra £125m to upgrade Valley Lines in South Wales."

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/968877908004622341

 

[Dai Corner]

"Department for Transport and Welsh Government agree transfer of responsibility for Wales and Borders franchise. Needs parliamentary approval. DfT to provide an extra £125m to upgrade Valley Lines in South Wales."

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/968877908004622341

That's the train operating franchise . Gareth was referring to the Infrastructure north of Queen Street being transferred to the WG.

Now we can speculate on whether the £125m is some sort of dowry, or a bribe to keep that infrastructure with NR and why it's for 'upgrade' and not 'electrification' as previously stated.

Or perhaps it would be better if we didn't!

 

[gareth950]

"Department for Transport and Welsh Government agree transfer of responsibility for Wales and Borders franchise. Needs parliamentary approval. DfT to provide an extra £125m to upgrade Valley Lines in South Wales."

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/968877908004622341

That is not 'extra' money. It's DfT money that was originally announced in 2014 towards Valley lines electrification.

 

[NotATrainspott]

That is not 'extra' money. It's DfT money that was originally announced in 2014 towards Valley lines electrification.

Is it already counted in the capital available for the SWM? If so, then saying it's extra is false. If it's not currently budgeted and it is extra, even if not a totally new concept, then it's not so bad.

 

[gareth950]

Is it already counted in the capital available for the SWM? If so, then saying it's extra is false. If it's not currently budgeted and it is extra, even if not a totally new concept, then it's not so bad.

It is most definitely false. It's the age old government trick of re-announcing money that was originally announced so long ago that most people (including the journalist who tweeted it out) have forgotten about the original announcement.

If the £125 million was 'extra' on top of the £125m announced in 2014, why aren't the DfT boasting about providing £250m towards the Valley lines electrification? It's all in the wording:

"As well as continuing with present franchise funding arrangements, the UK government will also provide an extra £125 million towards upgrading the Valley Lines, part of the Welsh Government’s metro project in South Wales."
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...t-to-be-devolved-following-historic-agreement

In other words, the current subsidy of the franchise is not being cut or reduced, (and presumably not increased either), and the £125m from the DfT towards the Valley lines is 'extra' money on top of this, that we should be grateful for.

 

[Envoy]

I have just come across a video filmed in real time from the cab of a Melbourne tram. About 20 minutes in, it goes through the CBD. Further on, it goes onto a former ‘normal’ rail route and finally goes back on the streets. Might be interest?

 

[Gareth Marston]

An opposition politician has woken up to what we've discussing on this thread for 3 months.....

https://nation.cymru/2018/labour-sc...ment-while-backing-cardiff-ministerial-metro/

Labour scrap valleys rail investment while backing ‘Cardiff ministerial metro’

“The Tory UK Government were rightly accused of selling out on people who lived to the west of Cardiff,” said Adam Price, Plaid Cymru Shadow Cabinet Secretary for the Economy.

“The Labour Welsh Government is now doing exactly the same to people who live in the Valleys to the north of the capital.”

‘Abandoned’

The UK Government had provided the Labour Government £125 million which was originally earmarked for the electrification of the entire Valleys lines network.

Adam Price said that the Wesh Government had “abandoned” those plans “despite having the necessary funds to deliver on their promise”.

“This latest revelation is yet another blunder in what has been a calamitous procurement process for the next Wales and Borders Franchise, including the South Wales Metro,” he said.

“The people of Ebbw Vale, Maesteg and Bridgend will rightly question the Labour Welsh Government’s sense of priorities upon learning of their intention to build a light-rail service between Cathays Park and Cardiff Bay – proposals which seem to be nothing more than a metro line for ministers.”

Free shots at goal all round those EIA's - just whats the point of them if "nothing is final"? Ken Skates mumbling about "world class" on the BBC hardly matches the info in the public domain.

Perhaps Andrew R T Davies and the Welsh Conservatives need to put a press release out about the Vale of Glamorgan and Monmouthshire.

 

[gareth950]

An opposition politician has woken up to what we've discussing on this thread for 3 months.....

https://nation.cymru/2018/labour-sc...ment-while-backing-cardiff-ministerial-metro/



Free shots at goal all round those EIA's - just whats the point of them if "nothing is final"? Ken Skates mumbling about "world class" on the BBC hardly matches the info in the public domain.

Perhaps Andrew R T Davies and the Welsh Conservatives need to put a press release out about the Vale of Glamorgan and Monmouthshire.

They do, but they won't, because Andrew RT Davies is utterly useless an an opposition 'leader'.

 

[WatcherZero]

The BBC maps from the Adam Price leak are only partial, showing Cardiff and Ebb Vale but at this stage of negotiations looks like:

Red: no longer being considered
Scheme 227, Heavy Rail Electrification from Ebb Vale to Cardiff Central

Yellow: Requires further study before programming
Scheme 83, Heavy Rail diesel spur from Abertillery to Ebb Vale line
Scheme 136, BRT from Abertilllery to Newbridge

Green: Programmed for phase 2 or possibly later
?Scheme 82, Track doubling of Ebb Vale line from Cardiff Central to Llanhilleth enabling 4tph

Red: No longer being considered
Scheme ???, Something from Cathays Station northwards along Cathay Terrace
Scheme 219, ? Light Rail link from New Theatre to Rhymney line via St Andrews Place

Yellow: Requires further study before programming
Scheme 7, ????
Scheme 15, Light rail station at Herbert Street Bridge linking to Cardiff Bay Heavy Rail Alignment (spur from Dumballs Rd)
Scheme 220, Light Rail on street line from Cardiff ?Castle? to City Line via Cowbridge Road
Scheme 217, Light Rail on street link from Cardiff Queen St to Cardiff ??? following HR alignment Herbert Street Bridge

Green: Programmed for phase 2 or possibly later
Scheme 16, Light Rail station at Loudon Sq linking to Cardiff Bay Heavy Rail Alignment (spur from Dumballs Rd)
Scheme 20, Light Rail extension of Bay line from Cardiff Bay to Porth Teigr via Bute Plaza and Porthead St
Scheme 21, Light Rail on street from Cardiff Bay to Cardiff Central via Dumballs Rd
Scheme 218, Light Rail on street from Cardiff Castle to Cathays via park Place

Blue: Programmed for phase 2
Scheme ???, Cardiff Bay line, electrification? Light rail conversion?

 

[gareth950]

As Gareth Marston has said, this is not new news, these maps were published on the TfW website 3 months ago. It's just taken the media and Plaid Cymru this long to pick up on it.

The debate over those maps has been pretty much exhausted in this thread. I don't see the point in re-opening any debate until we know anything new.

 

[CardiffKid]

This is getting interesting now. A Labour AM (and former minister) has started to criticize his own government:

The South Wales Metro has turned into the Loch Ness Monster, a Labour AM has said, claiming "nobody knows whether it actually exists or not".

Full story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-43335201

 

[Gareth Marston]

All entirely justified a mess of Welsh Governments own making.

The only thing world class is the scale of the cock up.

 

[iantherev]

I remember growing up in Caerphilly when a lot of trains off the Rhymney line went to Bute Road meaning a change at Queen St if you needed to go to Central. We tended to use the bus if we needed to catch a train at the General as was then.

 

[gareth950]

I'm amazed the maps were ever released anyway.
It's good to finally see some questioning of the proposals and complete secrecy of the project.
There's only so long Ken Skates can keep shouting 'world class' and 'transformative' without giving any details.
I know a local councillor who questioned Ken Skates on the plans asking for details to allow for scrutiny before the award of the franchise & Metro, and was told that documents would be released once the decision was made to allow for 'post scrutiny'. I really don't think Skates gets it.

Notice how only the BBC are reporting on the questioning of the Metro in the Assembly the last few days. Makes the bias of the business editor at Wales Online towards the light rail plans even more glaring.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm amazed the maps were ever released anyway.
It's good to finally see some questioning of the proposals and complete secrecy of the project.
There's only so long Ken Skates can keep shouting 'world class' and 'transformative' without giving any details.
I know a local councillor who questioned Ken Skates on the plans asking for details to allow for scrutiny before the award of the franchise & Metro, and was told that documents would be released once the decision was made to allow for 'post scrutiny'. I really don't think Skates gets it.

Notice how only the BBC are reporting on the questioning of the Metro in the Assembly the last few days. Makes the bias of the business editor at Wales Online towards the light rail plans even more glaring.

The maps were drawn to the attention of a journalist who provides pieces for Walesonline pre Christmas.

 

[gareth950]

The maps were drawn to the attention of a journalist who provides pieces for Walesonline pre Christmas.

I know which journalist you're talking about, unfortunately his articles I presume have to get past Sion Barry first, who is one of the biggest culprits of 'press release' journalism.

 

[glbotu]

I have just come across a video filmed in real time from the cab of a Melbourne tram. About 20 minutes in, it goes through the CBD. Further on, it goes onto a former ‘normal’ rail route and finally goes back on the streets. Might be interest?

So, as someone who lives in Melbourne, and uses the 96, I would suggest that Melbourne is not a great example of how to do trams. Fundamentally, Melbourne just never lost its original trams from the 1900s (unlike the UK), so the trams have the major problem of being unbearably slow (they are basically buses on rails) pretty much everywhere except the Clarendon Street Junction - St Kilda section of the 96 and a handful of other 'recent' extensions which have used old heavy rail alignments or the central reservations of highways. If the space existed at Flinders Street (the suburban rail hub), it would be better for that service to be part of the Metro trains service, rather than a tram.

 

[Envoy]

So, as someone who lives in Melbourne, and uses the 96, I would suggest that Melbourne is not a great example of how to do trams. Fundamentally, Melbourne just never lost its original trams from the 1900s (unlike the UK), so the trams have the major problem of being unbearably slow (they are basically buses on rails) pretty much everywhere except the Clarendon Street Junction - St Kilda section of the 96 and a handful of other 'recent' extensions which have used old heavy rail alignments or the central reservations of highways. If the space existed at Flinders Street (the suburban rail hub), it would be better for that service to be part of the Metro trains service, rather than a tram.

Well, I am pleased that someone who actually uses the Melbourne trams has found us and given a point of view about the system. My impression from viewing the video was that the streets are much wider than those in Cardiff. It seems to be completely bonkers to run trams through the narrow streets in central Cardiff - or indeed in many of the suburbs. What the people of the valley towns - such as Caerphilly, Rhymney, Merthyr and Pontypridd as well the coastal towns of Barry & Penarth - all with considerable populations - really need is a regular reliable and speedy (as possible) journey mainly to Cardiff Central or Queen Street. (Obviously there are some exceptions such as journeys from the valleys to Barry Island in summer as well as those to Rhoose for Cardiff Airport). They surely don’t want slow journeys through the streets of Cardiff with constant stopping - as can be seen in the Melbourne example. Where money should be put in south Wales is getting the system electrified and with increased frequencies on lines that have poor frequencies at present - notably the City Line (half hourly at present & no Sunday service), and the Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line via Rhoose & Llantwit Major (hourly at present with a 2 hourly service on Sundays).

A half hourly stopping service should also be on the mainline serving places like Pencoed & Pontyclun.

Buses are quite capable of serving the streets of Cardiff and have the flexibility to overtake/ change route when events are taking place. Hopefully electric or hydrogen powered buses won’t be too far away from becoming the norm. I would also like to add that many services such as water, gas & electricity mains are under the streets. Should something go wrong with one of these and a tram line is on top, the whole public transport system is bug.......

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well, I am pleased that someone who actually uses the Melbourne trams has found us and given a point of view about the system. My impression from viewing the video was that the streets are much wider than those in Cardiff. It seems to be completely bonkers to run trams through the narrow streets in central Cardiff - or indeed in many of the suburbs. What the people of the valley towns - such as Caerphilly, Rhymney, Merthyr and Pontypridd as well the coastal towns of Barry & Penarth - all with considerable populations - really need is a regular reliable and speedy (as possible) journey mainly to Cardiff Central or Queen Street. (Obviously there are some exceptions such as journeys from the valleys to Barry Island in summer as well as those to Rhoose for Cardiff Airport). They surely don’t want slow journeys through the streets of Cardiff with constant stopping - as can be seen in the Melbourne example. Where money should be put in south Wales is getting the system electrified and with increased frequencies on lines that have poor frequencies at present - notably the City Line (half hourly at present & no Sunday service), and the Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line via Rhoose & Llantwit Major (hourly at present with a 2 hourly service on Sundays).

A half hourly stopping service should also be on the mainline serving places like Pencoed & Pontyclun.

Moving Valley Lines services to Street Running in Cardiff is for the Brain dead (those that want it because someone else has it). People don't want waffle about "world class" and "transformative" they want to know that their public transport system is being upgraded to have sufficient capacity to move them to where they want to go quickly at reasonable frequencies. The only transformation that's needed short term is all of funding 5 diagrams to make use of CASR...

 

[gareth950]

I had to use the Baycar bus to travel between Cathays Park and Cardiff Bay today. Granted it was mid-morning, but the journey was comfortable on a long bendy bus with leather seats, and took just 15 minutes. The bus followed the exact same route any tram would.
I can categorically confirm that any tram to the Bay, which would deliver an identical journey, is most definitely not needed and if implememted would be nothing more than a vanity project.
Which is of course why Welsh Govt and Cardiff Council want to demolish County Hall, a modern council headquarters not even 30 years old built by the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation as part of the original Cardiff Bay regeneration scheme in the 1980s, along with the Red Dragon centre entertainment complex next door, just 20 years old, to build a new event stadium to somehow justify their Bay tram project.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If you want to read how Ken Skates thinks "it's the others boys fault" but is still "world class" and mustn't be criticised.

Read here.https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/ken-skates-metro-rail-wales-14391360