South Wales 'Metro' updates

[HowardGWR]

If TfW go LR, I hope they follow Ian Walmsleys advice.

Interesting, as I thought his advice was that tramtrains can't work well on both heavy rail and light rail. It's due to rail depths and wheel profiles, IIRC.

Perhaps you could kindly put me right, as I have lent my MR to someone.

 

[gareth950]

Interesting, as I thought his advice was that tramtrains can't work well on both heavy rail and light rail. It's due to rail depths and wheel profiles, IIRC.

Perhaps you could kindly put me right, as I have lent my MR to someone.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/tram-train-system-best-way-modernise-7214111

This is an abridged version of the original article that appeared in MR in November 2013.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Here's an article on light rail vehicles going for scarp after less than 20 years service (Midland Metro),
https://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regional-affairs/original-midland-metro-tram-go-14328355

Two survivors from the original Midland Metro tram fleet are to go on display as the rest of the fleet is scrapped.The T69 trams were introduced when the Midland Metro line opened between Snow Hill station and Wolverhampton city centre in 1998.

Manchester Metrolink also had to replace its entire fleet at around 22-23 years of age.

The Midland Metro bought 21 Urbos 3 33m trams for £40 million as replacements for the original 16 T69's in 2015 allowing for the extension and increased frequencies. However it is a total fleet replacement as the old trams have been scrapped not added to.

Modern Heavy Rail vehicles have a life expectancy of 35 years. One wonders if total fleet replacement at around 20 years versus @ 35 years is being factored in?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair this was poor quality AnsaldoBreda rubbish, as was Metrolink. Might Siemens, Stadler and CAF[1] kit last longer?

[1] Sounds like some sort of accounting or law firm

 

[Del1977]

I have been lurking on here a while and - while I certainly don't pretend to be representative of any sort of silent majority - feel that I can't be alone in thinking @NotATrainspott has argued the case for LR very eloquently. Of course Ian Walmsley from modern railways argued the case for light rail a couple of years ago in an article called "Metroland of my Fathers" and I understand he was a manager in South Wales BR during the the 1980's. So it's hardly the case that anyone with any "experience" or knowledge of South Wales rail would immediately see folly in going with light rail.

Agree. I think there has been some interesting exchanges in this thread, and that @NotATrainspott has outlined a decent case for light rail conversion.

But the thread has become rather repetitive, perhaps unsurprising given the dearth of real information - I agree with @MarkyT on that.

I think perhaps the thread would benefit and make for a more informed discussion if we could:

- Stop depicting the small minority who think light rail is a viable strategy worthy of consideration as being 'light rail jihadis'
- Drop the assumption that you have to live within 20 miles of Cardiff Central to have an opinion on anything to do with South Wales's rail network. Don't think this restriction applies to the thousands of other threads on this forum.
- Not view as heretical any contrast anyone makes with city/regional public transportation elsewhere in the UK or Europe. Cardiff is simply not unique.

 

[Gareth Marston]

To be fair this was poor quality AnsaldoBreda rubbish, as was Metrolink. Might Siemens, Stadler and CAF[1] kit last longer?

[1] Sounds like some sort of accounting or law firm

One will have to ask someone knowledgeable on European systems but the UK experience has been to buy cheap and then end up spending again. NET seems to have managed better so far, but its oldest Trams are 15 years now.

Still we got 30 years out the Pacer

 

[Gareth Marston]

Agree. I think there has been some interesting exchanges in this thread, and that @NotATrainspott has outlined a decent case for light rail conversion.

But the thread has become rather repetitive, perhaps unsurprising given the dearth of real information - I agree with @MarkyT on that.

I think perhaps the thread would benefit and make for a more informed discussion if we could:

- Stop depicting the small minority who think light rail is a viable strategy worthy of consideration as being 'light rail jihadis'
- Drop the assumption that you have to live within 20 miles of Cardiff Central to have an opinion on anything to do with South Wales's rail network. Don't think this restriction applies to the thousands of other threads on this forum.
- Not view as heretical any contrast anyone makes with city/regional public transportation elsewhere in the UK or Europe. Cardiff is simply not unique.

Given that I live 100 miles from Cardiff I presume I'm allowed to have an opinion

 

[Del1977]

Given that I live 100 miles from Cardiff I presume I'm allowed to have an opinion

Ask the people who keep posting questions such as "Where do you live", "Have you ever been to Cardiff?". I've received it myself even though I grew up in the South Wales valleys etc.

 

[B&I]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/tram-train-system-best-way-modernise-7214111

This is an abridged version of the original article that appeared in MR in November 2013.

That's a very confusing article. Tram-trains are a good idea because the trains are half-empty, but guards can't sell tickets because they can't get through packed trains to sell one to everyone who needs one ?

Carrying a reasonable number of passengers in reasonable comfort considering the journeys made really has to be the priority for whatever system is implemented.

 

[HowardGWR]

Regarding ticket sales, Berlin runs its S bahn and U bahn on the trust principle, no barriers. Roaming inspectors do the checks and the penalties are very high if you get caught. I would have thought that S Wales was an excellent area or a very simple zone system, with tickets sold in shops (carnets) and / or smart cards plus a stamp machine /reader on platforms.. Come to think of it, that is how Nederlandse Spoorwegen works and that is heavy rail. It doesn't seem to me that this issue is relevant to HR vs LR vs TT.

 

[Del1977]

Regarding ticket sales, Berlin runs its S bahn and U bahn on the trust principle, no barriers. Roaming inspectors do the checks and the penalties are very high if you get caught. I would have thought that S Wales was an excellent area or a very simple zone system, with tickets sold in shops (carnets) and / or smart cards plus a stamp machine /reader on platforms.. Come to think of it, that is how Nederlandse Spoorwegen works and that is heavy rail. It doesn't seem to me that this issue is relevant to HR vs LR vs TT.

It's also how the majority of the DLR operates: no barriers, ticket machines, roving penalty fares teams / prosecutions.

 

[Del1977]

That's a very confusing article. Tram-trains are a good idea because the trains are half-empty, but guards can't sell tickets because they can't get through packed trains to sell one to everyone who needs one ?

I don't think it's that difficult to see his point. If 10 passengers board at Dinas Powys, how exactly is the guard to sell them tickets in the < 2 minutes before they reach Eastbrook, before having to go back and open doors. If 5 more passengers get on at Eastbrook, he's behind and can't catch up, as there's no significant gaps between the stations.

So even though the train pulls in to Cardiff Central half full, the guard hasn't been able to serve all the passengers.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think perhaps the thread would benefit and make for a more informed discussion if we could:

- Stop depicting the small minority who think light rail is a viable strategy worthy of consideration as being 'light rail jihadis'
- Drop the assumption that you have to live within 20 miles of Cardiff Central to have an opinion on anything to do with South Wales's rail network. Don't think this restriction applies to the thousands of other threads on this forum.
- Not view as heretical any contrast anyone makes with city/regional public transportation elsewhere in the UK or Europe. Cardiff is simply not unique.

Maybe add to that: lets only comment on what is actually being proposed by the WG (or what we know of it) rather than going all crayonista on some brilliant fantasy LR system that will never actually see the light of day.

 

[Del1977]

Maybe add to that: lets only comment on what is actually being proposed by the WG (or what we know of it) rather than going all crayonista on some brilliant fantasy LR system that will never actually see the light of day.

Might as well just close the thread then, since they've released nothing concrete other than a depot planning application. Even the environmental assessments show possibilities rather than proposals.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Another pretend denial post NotATrainspott - how utterly boring but we've all come to expect this sort of thing from you. Pretending that you haven't had valid points made against you or have been cuaght out does your arguments no favors- it merely serves to confirm that your argument is weak.

You know this but for the benefit of everyone-

• You told us that LR has reduced operating costs and therefore reduced subsidy.
• We asked you to show us how.
• You told us initially that in theory LR drivers are paid less then HR ones.
• We pointed out that in the real world the Welsh Government has pledged to protect existing jobs. Therefore to begin with the LR drivers will have HR terms and conditions.
  
• You provided an example of how natural wastage and no pay increases for 20 years (post #1624) would eventually lead to cost savings.
  
• We pointed out that the TfW plans and your own previous advocacy of higher frequency service under LR mean the system would need more drivers than now and therefore crucially would have greater staff costs than the exiting system.
• You got yourself in a tither about servce frequency in post #1627 in a response no one understood.
• You've now tried to pretend that valid points were not made.

Higher frequency services increase ticket revenues, and the benefit the system provides to the local area and its economy.

This argument seems to be about whether the absolute wage bill will go up or down. As I have demonstrated, LR means that for the same frequency, the absolute wage bill goes own with time.

Now, you're saying that simultaneously increasing frequency, and thus the need for drivers, is going to ruin the business case for LR. That's what doesn't make any sense, at all, on any level.

If you want that frequency with HR, you will also need to increase the absolute wage bill. If you want to keep the absolute wage bill the same with HR technology, the only thing you can do is to keep frequency the same. Keeping frequencies the same doesn't help anyone at all. No one in the Valleys would rather have a train every 30 minutes than every 15 minutes.

If you want to increase frequency, the most affordable and economically viable way of doing so is to move to LR salaries. Increasing frequency increases ticket revenues and benefits. The amount of extra revenue and benefits will be the same whether LR or HR vehicles are used. Therefore, the lower wage costs of expanding with LR technology have a better business case. LR frequency improvements having a higher BCR than HR frequency improvements may well be the thing that makes any sort of frequency improvement viable. It's quite possible that HR frequency improvements would have a BCR of 0.9, while LR would have a BCR of 1.1.

If you want I can repeat my calculations including frequency increases. They're only going to show exactly what I'm describing.

Here's an article on light rail vehicles going for scarp after less than 20 years service (Midland Metro),
https://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regional-affairs/original-midland-metro-tram-go-14328355



Manchester Metrolink also had to replace its entire fleet at around 22-23 years of age.

The Midland Metro bought 21 Urbos 3 33m trams for £40 million as replacements for the original 16 T69's in 2015 allowing for the extension and increased frequencies. However it is a total fleet replacement as the old trams have been scrapped not added to.

Modern Heavy Rail vehicles have a life expectancy of 35 years. One wonders if total fleet replacement at around 20 years versus @ 35 years is being factored in?

The Tyne and Wear Metrocars have lasted 40 years, and they're just German trams. If you look across Europe you'll see plenty of tram and Stadtbahn networks running vehicles for a good 40 years or more. The most common factor with premature withdrawal of tram and train vehicles across Europe seems to be that they came from AnsaldoBreda. Now that they're under the control of Hitachi (the train building operations having been thrown in for free alongside the signalling business) we don't really need to worry about that any more.

It's in the nature of LR vehicles that they can last a long time, because there really isn't a lot to go wrong. Much of the technology has been around for the past 120 years.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Regarding ticket sales, Berlin runs its S bahn and U bahn on the trust principle, no barriers. Roaming inspectors do the checks and the penalties are very high if you get caught. I would have thought that S Wales was an excellent area or a very simple zone system, with tickets sold in shops (carnets) and / or smart cards plus a stamp machine /reader on platforms.. Come to think of it, that is how Nederlandse Spoorwegen works and that is heavy rail. It doesn't seem to me that this issue is relevant to HR vs LR vs TT.

This is the way forward No selling of tickets onboard , Penalty Fare the whole area. Issue is irrelevant to LR v HR.

Theirs barriers currently at Pontypridd, Cathays, Queen St & Central. Caerphilly has them but are not used. Theirs another 12 locations on the network with Ticket Offices. Id maybe reduce manned ticket offices to Aberdare,Merthyr,Pontypridd, Trefforest (students - has highest % of long distance sale on network), Caerphilly, Penarth and Barry.

 

[WelshBluebird]

This is the way forward No selling of tickets onboard , Penalty Fare the whole area. Issue is irrelevant to LR v HR.

Theirs barriers currently at Pontypridd, Cathays, Queen St & Central. Caerphilly has them but are not used. Theirs another 12 locations on the network with Ticket Offices. Id maybe reduce manned ticket offices to Aberdare,Merthyr,Pontypridd, Trefforest (students - has highest % of long distance sale on network), Caerphilly, Penarth and Barry.

To me, if you force people down the route of buying before they travel, the arrangements have to be good enough to actually allow that.

Not sure I like the idea of forcing people to buy rail tickets at a local shop or whatever because IMO that just is not good enough. Places like Dinas don't really have much around them.

By all means introduce a system like Oyster or whatever that makes ticketing quick and easy (maybe a combined system of Oyster like cards, contactless, e-tickets, TVMs everywhere etc) actually improving the "experience" for passsengers. But putting obstacles where none currently exist? I am not sure that is the best way to improve the network!

 

[Gareth Marston]

That's a very confusing article. Tram-trains are a good idea because the trains are half-empty, but guards can't sell tickets because they can't get through packed trains to sell one to everyone who needs one ?

Carrying a reasonable number of passengers in reasonable comfort considering the journeys made really has to be the priority for whatever system is implemented.

The Western Mail is often confusing even to its own journalists.

 

[Gareth Marston]

To me, if you force people down the route of buying before they travel, the arrangements have to be good enough to actually allow that.

Not sure I like the idea of forcing people to buy rail tickets at a local shop or whatever because IMO that just is not good enough. Places like Dinas don't really have much around them.

By all means introduce a system like Oyster or whatever that makes ticketing quick and easy (maybe a combined system of Oyster like cards, contactless, e-tickets, TVMs everywhere etc) actually improving the "experience" for passsengers. But putting obstacles where none currently exist? I am not sure that is the best way to improve the network!

An Oyster type system should be integral to any Metro. TVM's are costly (c £50K each) but a complete culture shift in ticketing is needed in the valleys and you have to spend £.

 

[bastien]

The Tyne and Wear Metrocars have lasted 40 years, and they're just German trams.

Eh? They were built in Washwood Heath - which is in the middle of England, last time I checked.

 

[MarkyT]

Eh? They were built in Washwood Heath - which is in the middle of England, last time I checked.

Yes, but based on the well established German "Stadtbahnwagen B" design.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtbahnwagen_B

The Stadtbahnwagen Typ B (translation Type "B" Light Rail Vehicle, short form B-Wagen) is a light rail vehicle used by several Stadtbahn networks in the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia. It was mainly developed by Düsseldorf-based DUEWAG, who also built the majority of vehicles in a consortium with Siemens and Kiepe...

...The Typ B formed the basis for the British-built Metrocars on the Tyne and Wear Metro, which opened in 1980

 

[Envoy]

I see that Sustains are kicking off because of the proposal to convert the popular cycleway between Mangotsfield & Bath into a Light Rail route. (This is the route of the former Midland Railway). My concern is that the route of the former single track railway from Fairwater out to Cregiau will become a cycleway - which is a good thing. However, if at some stage they decide to put in a new rail route (HR or LR), then insufficient land is being left to do this (with electricity masts) - yet still allow for a cycleway to remain alongside. Cardiff Planners and the Welsh Government should clearly look at plans for Plasdwr and land north of M3 J33 and ensure that as wide a corridor as is reasonably needed for both rail route and cycleway is protected. If this is not done now, we could see the ‘trouble' that is now happening west of Bath. (It would also be wise to ensure that bridges can be built to accommodate a HR system on the Cregiau route so as to keep all options open).

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rans-has-got-it-wrong-says-rail-group.161174/

We have responded to the leaders of the West of England Combined Authority, Bristol City, Bath & North East Somerset and South Gloucestershire Council’s plans for a rapid transit link along the Bristol and Bath Railway Path.

 

[gareth950]

I see that Sustains are kicking off because of the proposal to convert the popular cycleway between Mangotsfield & Bath into a Light Rail route. (This is the route of the former Midland Railway). My concern is that the route of the former single track railway from Fairwater out to Cregiau will become a cycleway - which is a good thing. However, if at some stage they decide to put in a new rail route (HR or LR), then insufficient land is being left to do this (with electricity masts) - yet still allow for a cycleway to remain alongside. Cardiff Planners and the Welsh Government should clearly look at plans for Plasdwr and land north of M3 J33 and ensure that as wide a corridor as is reasonably needed for both rail route and cycleway is protected. If this is not done now, we could see the ‘trouble' that is now happening west of Bath. (It would also be wise to ensure that bridges can be built to accommodate a HR system on the Cregiau route so as to keep all options open).

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rans-has-got-it-wrong-says-rail-group.161174/

Welsh Govt, TfW and Cardiff's Planners actually speaking to each other and working together?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Ive found some hand written notes i have (from 2002- marked in confidence T Clift/ C Gibb Cardiff RPC presentation) on what we now call CASR and the rational behind the turn-back plans.

• Key issue of overcrowding at Peak times - limiting growth and effectiveness of system.
• Frequencies being built on from initial 1980's revamp ( 8 tph through Queen St initially) now (2002) 12 tph.
• Point reached that any further frequency increases needs infrastructure work.
• 75% of Valley Lines traffic is contained with in the core of Barry/Penarth-central Cardiff- Caerphilly/Pontypridd.
• Adding carriages the whole way (to the Heads of Valleys stations) felt to be wasteful.
• Barry Island anomalous in terms of network as traffic is heavily skewed to summer months/weekends despite being 7th busiest station on network is not heavily used on normal weekdays.

Turnbacks at Barry/Caerphilly/ Pontypridd will allow core of network used by 75% of traffic to have turn up and go frequencies and extra carriages at peak times ( AM and PM peak weekdays/ events Millennium Stadium) with most efficient use of resources.

Off Peak Frequency
4 tph Cardiff Queen St to Cardiff Bay. 1 diagram.

2 tph Coryton to Radyr 3 diagrams.

2 tph Rhymeny to Penarth. 7 diagrams.
2 tph Bargoed to Penarth. 5 diagrams.
(gives 4 tph Bargoed to Penarth)

2 tph Merthyr to Brigend via Barry. 9 diagrams.
2 tph Aberdare to Barry Island. 7 diagrams.
2 tph Treherbert to Cardiff Central. 5 diagrams.
(gives 4 tph Abercynon to Barry/ 6 tph Pontypridd to Cardiff)
37 diagrams off peak.

Peak Changes/ Additions.
2 tph Treherbert to Cardiff Central service extended to Barry. Needs 1 extra diagram.
(gives 6 tph Cardiff to Barry)

4 tph Cardiff Queen St to Cardiff Bay. 1 diagram. becomes -

2 tph Caerphilly to Cardiff Bay. 2 extra diagrams
(gives 6 tph Caerphilly to Cardiff).

2 tph Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay. 2 extra diagrams
(gives 8 tph Pontypridd to Cardiff)

Merthyr to Bridgend service via Barry misses smaller stations between Trefforest and Barry in peak.
42 diagrams peak.

 

[Gareth Marston]

To be fair this was poor quality AnsaldoBreda rubbish, as was Metrolink. Might Siemens, Stadler and CAF[1] kit last longer?

[1] Sounds like some sort of accounting or law firm

The answer is we don't know unless we have any experts on continental light rail systems?

 

[gareth950]

Ive found some hand written notes i have (from 2002- marked in confidence T Clift/ C Gibb Cardiff RPC presentation) on what we now call CASR and the rational behind the turn-back plans.

• Key issue of overcrowding at Peak times - limiting growth and effectiveness of system.
• Frequencies being built on from initial 1980's revamp ( 8 tph through Queen St initially) now (2002) 12 tph.
• Point reached that any further frequency increases needs infrastructure work.
• 75% of Valley Lines traffic is contained with in the core of Barry/Penarth-central Cardiff- Caerphilly/Pontypridd.
• Adding carriages the whole way (to the Heads of Valleys stations) felt to be wasteful.
• Barry Island anomalous in terms of network as traffic is heavily skewed to summer months/weekends despite being 7th busiest station on network is not heavily used on normal weekdays.

Turnbacks at Barry/Caerphilly/ Pontypridd will allow core of network used by 75% of traffic to have turn up and go frequencies and extra carriages at peak times ( AM and PM peak weekdays/ events Millennium Stadium) with most efficient use of resources.

Off Peak Frequency
4 tph Cardiff Queen St to Cardiff Bay. 1 diagram.

2 tph Coryton to Radyr 3 diagrams.

2 tph Rhymeny to Penarth. 7 diagrams.
2 tph Bargoed to Penarth. 5 diagrams.
(gives 4 tph Bargoed to Penarth)

2 tph Merthyr to Brigend via Barry. 9 diagrams.
2 tph Aberdare to Barry Island. 7 diagrams.
2 tph Treherbert to Cardiff Central. 5 diagrams.
(gives 4 tph Abercynon to Barry/ 6 tph Pontypridd to Cardiff)
37 diagrams off peak.

Peak Changes/ Additions.
2 tph Treherbert to Cardiff Central service extended to Barry. Needs 1 extra diagram.
(gives 6 tph Cardiff to Barry)

4 tph Cardiff Queen St to Cardiff Bay. 1 diagram. becomes -

2 tph Caerphilly to Cardiff Bay. 2 extra diagrams
(gives 6 tph Caerphilly to Cardiff).

2 tph Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay. 2 extra diagrams
(gives 8 tph Pontypridd to Cardiff)

Merthyr to Bridgend service via Barry misses smaller stations between Trefforest and Barry in peak.
42 diagrams peak.

What's this? A sensible, workable plan, with the necessary infrastructure upgrade work paid for and delivered, and that is ready to use immediately when the extra trains needed become available?

We can't possibly have a successful rail infrastructure upgrade project in operation in Wales that was paid for and delivered by Westminster controlled Network Rail. No, it must be written off so that a world class, transformative, exciting, made in Wales 'solution' can be delivered.

(I'm parodying the spin and rhetoric of Welsh Govt Economy and Infrastructure minister Ken Skates, for any confused English members who don't get it)

 

[Gareth Marston]

What's this? A sensible, workable plan, with the necessary infrastructure upgrade work paid for and delivered, and that is ready to use immediately when the extra trains needed become available?

We can't possibly have a successful rail infrastructure upgrade project in operation in Wales. After all, it was partly paid for and delivered by Westminster controlled Network Rail. No, it must be written off so that a world class, transformative, exciting, made in Wales solution can be delivered.

That's 33% more capacity in the peaks from Pontypridd, 50% from Caerphilly and Barry corridors for approximately an increase of one eighth in rolling stock/ train crew. Which we could be benefitting from now.

 

[MarkyT]

The answer is we don't know unless we have any experts on continental light rail systems?

The Stadtbahnwagen B vehicles on which the T&W cars are based have lasted well in Germany. They were all originally built between 1974 and 1999 and many are still in service with their original operators while others have been sold on, including some going abroad. In 2009, Bonn began a major life extension project on their 1974-77 built examples for a further 25 years service, so that suggests their basic fabric is still very sound, and Koeln is doing something similar with cars dating from the early 1980s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 1980s GTL trams in Den Haag (some built in the 90s to basically the same design) seem to be lasting well.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelede_Tram_Lang

As far as I can see it's just AnsaldoBreda products which are garbage. All of them, near enough without exception.

It's also worth noting that those that have been replaced have not been replaced for being worn out or somehow bad, it was because of a move to low-floor trams to improve accessibility.

Furthermore the Sheffield (Siemens-Duewag) cars are now 26 years old and showing no sign of a need for replacement. Indeed, even the Metrolink cars weren't going to be replaced until the PTE realised how much better (in engineering terms) the new ones were compared with the AnsaldoBreda rubbish.

 

[snowball]

As far as I can see it's just AnsaldoBreda products which are garbage. All of them, near enough without exception.

It's also worth noting that those that have been replaced have not been replaced for being worn out or somehow bad, it was because of a move to low-floor trams to improve accessibility.

Manchester replaced high-floor AB trams with high-floor non-AB trams for reasons of reliability and maintainability. Midland Metro also replaced AB with non-AB; the old ones were mixed-floor but I'm not sure whether the replacements are uniformly low- or mixed-floor.