Manchester Piccadilly P15/16 alignment; alternative development considered

[rebmcr]

Does the elimination of crossing movements at Piccadilly's throat improve throughput by enough to generate extra paths through Castlefield?

 

[Altfish]

Does the elimination of crossing movements at Piccadilly's throat improve throughput by enough to generate extra paths through Castlefield?

Trains are held at Ardwick and in Piccadilly Platform 13 whilst trains clear before progressing. So if something wants to cross to get to or leave the through platforms there can be delays if the 'straight on' trains do not promptly clear.

 

[DarloRich]

i see the hatred of direct services from the north east/Yorkshire to Manchester Airport has risen its head again.

 

[bbrez]

Trains are held at Ardwick and in Piccadilly Platform 13 whilst trains clear before progressing. So if something wants to cross to get to or leave the through platforms there can be delays if the 'straight on' trains do not promptly clear.

I'm on the 17.11 to Scarbados virtually every night. This barely ever arrives or leaves on time and a few times we've sat there at least 5 minutes waiting for a clear path.

The knock on delays from any late train at peak time are a damn good reason why 15 & 16 should be built, even when the TPE trains are rerouted.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not saying cut everything, just the TPEs that reverse at Picc until P15/16 can be built. Really they were essential to the utility of the Ordsall Chord.

As another possibility, could an additional *track* be build more cheaply than the full platform developments, allowing separate access to and use of 13a/b and 14a/b? Most trains down there don't use all of it, so doing that would provide most of the benefits and indeed have some of its own e.g. easier interchange.

They don't use it at the moment, but as services get longer this might not be as easy in future. There are a couple of short sidings in the throat of Piccadilly, one which can be accessed from P13/14 but is in fairly regular use already and certainly couldn't handle many more terminators at those platforms. The other siding in the middle of the throat isn't accessible from them.

i see the hatred of direct services from the north east/Yorkshire to Manchester Airport has risen its head again.

I can't quite understand why there is so much opposition to it. Clearly more people are using Manchester airport, and more people are using the direct trains. So why is it more preferable to have potentially complicated moves to terminate them and turn them around at Piccadilly, spilling the passengers onto often heavily congested platforms to add potentially 10/15 minutes to their journey time, when they could just travel directly to the airport from towns and cities beyond Manchester. Unless some people feel we are all a bit too flabby up north and need the exercise.....

 

[DarloRich]

I can't quite understand why there is so much opposition to it. Clearly more people are using Manchester airport, and more people are using the direct trains

Not sure why, just boarded the Airport Middlsborough service at Piccadilly through to York. Arrived with half the seats taken from Airport, lots of travellers included judging by baggage.

I honestly don't get it. This is a really big success for rail with a market grown form next to nothing! I know lots of people who make two types of rail journeys: London for a special trip/weekend or Manchester Airport for their holidays.

Why they want to put that at risk for "tidy lines" seems mad to me

 

[YorkshireBear]

i see the hatred of direct services from the north east/Yorkshire to Manchester Airport has risen its head again.

Not sure why, just boarded the Airport Middlsborough service at Piccadilly through to York. Arrived with half the seats taken from Airport, lots of travellers included judging by baggage.

Many were still in on when i got off at York.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I honestly don't get it. This is a really big success for rail with a market grown form next to nothing! I know lots of people who make two types of rail journeys: London for a special trip/weekend or Manchester Airport for their holidays.

Why they want to put that at risk for "tidy lines" seems mad to me

It's not about "tidy lines". It's about keeping the Castlefield line reasonably workable by not packing more short DMUs onto it, and about freeing up a DMU that TPE need to stop people being left behind at stations, which has to be a priority over direct services to holiday Spain.

Once P15/16 has been built and the new TPE stock has been delivered (at least enough to allow 3-car operation to end), by all means bring it back.

In the meantime if you don't qualify for railway provided assistance, and you can't be bothered walking 50 yards on the level when you'll have to walk about 200 yards including escalators when you get to the airport (and that's just to get to check-in), take a taxi. These services simply should not be a priority in the background of the area's railway needs.

 

[Bantamzen]

I honestly don't get it. This is a really big success for rail with a market grown form next to nothing! I know lots of people who make two types of rail journeys: London for a special trip/weekend or Manchester Airport for their holidays.

Why they want to put that at risk for "tidy lines" seems mad to me

Not sure why, just boarded the Airport Middlsborough service at Piccadilly through to York. Arrived with half the seats taken from Airport, lots of travellers included judging by baggage.

Many were still in on when i got off at York.

I think what a lot of people forget is that whilst there is quite a bit of investment going in at rail level, especially around the North West, road-wise there is not a great deal more capacity being generated. And with passenger growth at 9% last year through the airport, that's a lot more people to shoehorn onto the road network in the region which at best can be problematic and at worst a car park (M62 I'm looking at you). Its not a lot of fun falling off a red-eye from the US only to find your pre-booked taxi is snarled up in roadworks and accidents and is an hour and a half away as once happened to me. In future the train will be taking the strain, preferably with a nice bottle of wine to enjoy as we head over the hills.

So it makes good sense to grow that market, and grow it will because its a stress trying to time a drive to the airport whereas a regular direct service from major towns and cities offers a fairly reliable alternative. And for those kind souls worried about northern waistlines, there is still a fair walk to most gates from there....

 

[Bletchleyite]

So it makes good sense to grow that market

If I can interject it makes no sense to grow TPE's market in any form until the new stock is delivered and in operation. The overcrowding is already at unacceptable levels. Arguably they need to find a way to *reduce* demand a bit, and be very careful and ruthless in how they deploy their fleet to avoid as much of it as possible.

Same with Northern to some extent, which is why, if the 769 project fails, I advocate splitting services to use plentiful used EMUs under the wires and pack in DMU operation under the wires as far as remotely possible until more wires can go up and the new DMUs arrive. I've given other examples of options for this, such as truncation of Barrow services to Lancaster (compensated by introducing a proper hourly clockface timetable from morning to night including Sundays) and Windermere services to Oxenholme, replaced with connecting EMU services from Manchester.

If we aren't providing adequate capacity, everything else has to take a back seat. Better that people have to change trains on quality, planned connections than that they can't get on at all.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Indeed, I am flying from Manchester very early this Saturday, unfortunately, parking is £35 and the train was going to cost a lot more for all 4 of us (2 without railcards). So I am driving at 3:30am.

When just me and my wife go in April I will be doing as you say as no one else to tell us no!

 

[Bantamzen]

If I can interject it makes no sense to grow TPE's market in any form until the new stock is delivered and in operation. The overcrowding is already at unacceptable levels. Arguably they need to find a way to *reduce* demand a bit, and be very careful and ruthless in how they deploy their fleet to avoid as much of it as possible.

Same with Northern to some extent, which is why, if the 769 project fails, I advocate splitting services to use plentiful used EMUs under the wires and pack in DMU operation under the wires as far as remotely possible until more wires can go up and the new DMUs arrive. I've given other examples of options for this, such as truncation of Barrow services to Lancaster (compensated by introducing a proper hourly clockface timetable from morning to night including Sundays) and Windermere services to Oxenholme, replaced with connecting EMU services from Manchester.

If we aren't providing adequate capacity, everything else has to take a back seat. Better that people have to change trains on quality, planned connections than that they can't get on at all.

I'm afraid what you are describing is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. More people are already using the direct services, so quite how you think that stopping them short of the airport and onto a shuttle service is going to free up capacity on the TP core is beyond me. if someone is travelling to York from the airport they are still going to get on a TPE to Manchester and take up the same capacity, have the same number of cases etc. Unless you are advocating TPE actively discouraging people from using the rails to get to the airport, in which case you've lost the revenue that is going to be needed to go towards the leasing costs for the new units that are on their way.

Its by no means an ideal situation but with the first bits of extra capacity in the form of the half Pretendalino sets hopefully just a couple of months or so away (all being well), now is not the time to curtail the airport services. As things stand with the exception of the Scotland services, pretty much all TPE services still run as three car units. Freeing up a couple more (at most) isn't going to make a massive difference this late in the game. And don't forget the first of the Calder Valley services have started to reach Oxford Road, so a little bit of that airport traffic coming from there that may start to seep onto those and not interchange onto the TPEs at Leeds and Huddersfield, and this will increase even more once they extend themselves to the airport.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand the general gist of where you are coming from, its just that you are way, way too late with the idea. You'd do more harm than good at this point.

 

[HSTEd]

My only thing I would want to change is make all the TPE (and Northern) trains between Oxford Road and the Airport stop at all stations.

Stopping them all at Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury, Gatley and Heald Green does not substantially reduce their usefulness to people trying to get to the Airport from elsewhere.
But it does allow us to use a line through a heavily urbanised area that is otherwise going to waste.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bantamzen: it would free up one DMU per hour to use elsewhere.

 

[takno]

My only thing I would want to change is make all the TPE (and Northern) trains between Oxford Road and the Airport stop at all stations.

Stopping them all at Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury, Gatley and Heald Green does not substantially reduce their usefulness to people trying to get to the Airport from elsewhere.
But it does allow us to use a line through a heavily urbanised area that is otherwise going to waste.

Seems like an insane idea to be cutting stops in West Yorkshire and preventing stopping services from running on the line to shave a few minutes off the journey to Manchester, just to then stop at every corner shop and cow-shed between Manchester town centre and the airport. You might as well get on the tram...

 

[WatcherZero]

My only thing I would want to change is make all the TPE (and Northern) trains between Oxford Road and the Airport stop at all stations.

Stopping them all at Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury, Gatley and Heald Green does not substantially reduce their usefulness to people trying to get to the Airport from elsewhere.
But it does allow us to use a line through a heavily urbanised area that is otherwise going to waste.

​

Isnt there something like 9 tph? That's far more capacity than those stations could ever need and the stoppers take 24m as opposed to 15m. That's a lot of passengers inconvenienced for your benefit when the stoppers are already every 15 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems like an insane idea to be cutting stops in West Yorkshire and preventing stopping services from running on the line to shave a few minutes off the journey to Manchester, just to then stop at every corner shop and cow-shed between Manchester town centre and the airport. You might as well get on the tram...

Much as I'd like to see a more S-Bahn like service operating there, it makes no sense to do that with scarce DMUs.

 

[Bantamzen]

Bantamzen: it would free up one DMU per hour to use elsewhere.

It would have, but like I say this late in the day it is not worth risking losing a rapidly growing for years to come. Had TPE not extended to the airport but were now planning it, I could forgive them for delaying. But too many people use these now to drop them, so for the next year or so until the MKVs and 68s start to increase capacity we'll all have to put up with what we have.

 

[DarloRich]

It's not about "tidy lines". It's about keeping the Castlefield line reasonably workable by not packing more short DMUs onto it, and about freeing up a DMU that TPE need to stop people being left behind at stations, which has to be a priority over direct services to holiday Spain.

Once P15/16 has been built and the new TPE stock has been delivered (at least enough to allow 3-car operation to end), by all means bring it back.

In the meantime if you don't qualify for railway provided assistance, and you can't be bothered walking 50 yards on the level when you'll have to walk about 200 yards including escalators when you get to the airport (and that's just to get to check-in), take a taxi. These services simply should not be a priority in the background of the area's railway needs.

I think you are completely wrong about this. The convenience of the direct train is the attraction not the use of the train. People don't want to change and turfing them off at Piccadilly or Victoria and pointing them onto a northern train will simply be perceived as an unnecessary chew on.

BTW once you stop the service that market is gone and it is going to be very hard to win them back.

I'm afraid what you are describing is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. More people are already using the direct services, so quite how you think that stopping them short of the airport and onto a shuttle service is going to free up capacity on the TP core is beyond me. if someone is travelling to York from the airport they are still going to get on a TPE to Manchester and take up the same capacity, have the same number of cases etc.

I think such a decision means those people ( and their money) find a different way to the airport - the attraction is the direct service

 

[HSTEd]

Isnt there something like 9 tph? That's far more capacity than those stations could ever need and the stoppers take 24m as opposed to 15m. That's a lot of passengers inconvenienced for your benefit when the stoppers are already every 15 minutes.

Mauldeth Road receives two trains per hour at best. Not four.

EDIT:

Many of the fast trains take more like 17 minutes than 15 as far as I can tell, and some of the all stops trains only take 23 minutes.
Basically the change in journey times is tiny.
And since most of them are about to spend hours in a security queue anyway, I doubt a handful of extra minutes on a train is really much of a big deal to them.

Seems like an insane idea to be cutting stops in West Yorkshire and preventing stopping services from running on the line to shave a few minutes off the journey to Manchester, just to then stop at every corner shop and cow-shed between Manchester town centre and the airport. You might as well get on the tram...

But I've just been told that the primary atraction of through services to the Airport are that its a one seat ride the entire way.
Do people about to spend hours at airport check in really care if the train takes a few extra minutes to reach the Airport?

People disembarking in central Manchester are an entirely different market, to whoom speed matters.
People around the Styal Line however cannot get a tram, and doing something like this would provide them with a tram standard service at a very low cost to the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think such a decision means those people ( and their money) find a different way to the airport - the attraction is the direct service

I know, and you can't have a direct service from everywhere to everywhere, particularly where there is both a rolling stock shortage and a line capacity shortage.

TBH, this business, which is mostly on cheapo Advance tickets and does not heavily load the trains, might as well be let go. I disagree with you that it won't return. The same people may not return, but O'Leary wasn't wrong when he said other people will come along later.

It isn't OK wasting scarce DMUs shifting fresh air when there is a shortage.

 

[xotGD]

I know, and you can't have a direct service from everywhere to everywhere, particularly where there is both a rolling stock shortage and a line capacity shortage.

TBH, this business, which is mostly on cheapo Advance tickets and does not heavily load the trains, might as well be let go. I disagree with you that it won't return. The same people may not return, but O'Leary wasn't wrong when he said other people will come along later.

It isn't OK wasting scarce DMUs shifting fresh air when there is a shortage.

Drifting further off topic, but it could be argued that operating 185s York - Newcastle is more of a waste of scarce DMUs. Either TPE could leave the route to VTEC and XC, or run an EMU shuttle (using 319s on short-term hire?) with cross-platform or same-platform connections at York.

Also, a 3-car set between York and Middlesbrough has always been more than enough when I've used these services - perhaps hand it over to Northern with a 2-car 158?

 

[Altfish]

I think what a lot of people forget is that whilst there is quite a bit of investment going in at rail level, especially around the North West, road-wise there is not a great deal more capacity being generated. And with passenger growth at 9% last year through the airport, that's a lot more people to shoehorn onto the road network in the region which at best can be problematic and at worst a car park (M62 I'm looking at you). Its not a lot of fun falling off a red-eye from the US only to find your pre-booked taxi is snarled up in roadworks and accidents and is an hour and a half away as once happened to me. In future the train will be taking the strain, preferably with a nice bottle of wine to enjoy as we head over the hills.

So it makes good sense to grow that market, and grow it will because its a stress trying to time a drive to the airport whereas a regular direct service from major towns and cities offers a fairly reliable alternative. And for those kind souls worried about northern waistlines, there is still a fair walk to most gates from there....

I don't know where you drive but there is plenty of money being spent on roads in Yorkshire and Manchester areas. The M62 in particular has had two major upgrades to 'Smart Motorway' status. The SEMMS road by the airport, the lift bridge by the Trafford Centre; the A556 by-pass near Knutsford. I'm sure there are more that don't come to mind.
Both the Smart Motorway schemes cost c£200m each; SEMMS is c£300m; A556 is just short of £200m

 

[Bletchleyite]

Drifting further off topic, but it could be argued that operating 185s York - Newcastle is more of a waste of scarce DMUs. Either TPE could leave the route to VTEC and XC, or run an EMU shuttle (using 319s on short-term hire?) with cross-platform or same-platform connections at York.

Also, a 3-car set between York and Middlesbrough has always been more than enough when I've used these services - perhaps hand it over to Northern with a 2-car 158?

Both of those are valid arguments, though I don't know what loadings are like. I particularly propose these ones because loadings are low compared with the rest of TPE, they cause other operational issues. The Barrows south of Lancaster are similar, they are mostly acting as Barrow-Lancaster and Preston-Manchester Airport services with the loadings Lancaster-Preston very low and an almost complete turnover of passengers between the two of Lancaster and Preston (indeed, I think Windermere has a much better case for through Airport services because of high tourist numbers). Once there are more DMUs/bi-modes available by all means put them back, but while they aren't they are poor use of resources.

 

[Altfish]

I have often wondered if a cheaper solution would be to divert the lines into Platforms 11/12 over Fairfield Street to give you the 4 through lines.
Don't get me wrong it is not easy and I do realise that the lines into 11/12 come off the line into 10 (I think
If you look at the map here...
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/53.47621/-2.22859
It's a pity HS2 is going on the other side or you could compensate for the loss of 11/12 on that side.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Barrows south of Lancaster are similar, they are mostly acting as Barrow-Lancaster and Preston-Manchester Airport services with the loadings Lancaster-Preston very low and an almost complete turnover of passengers between the two of Lancaster and Preston (indeed, I think Windermere has a much better case for through Airport services because of high tourist numbers).

My good lady wife and I (both now well into our 70s) have travelled first class from Manchester Airport direct to Windermere many times when TPE had the Class 185 units with a first class section on that direct route and were pleased that such a facility existed to save the long M6 drive northwards and would attest to the tourist usage on this route.

 

[takno]

But I've just been told that the primary atraction of through services to the Airport are that its a one seat ride the entire way.
Do people about to spend hours at airport check in really care if the train takes a few extra minutes to reach the Airport?

People disembarking in central Manchester are an entirely different market, to whoom speed matters.
People around the Styal Line however cannot get a tram, and doing something like this would provide them with a tram standard service at a very low cost to the railway.

Ten minutes extra on a journey to the airport matters a lot. I rarely schedule in more than an hours wait at the airport, sometimes a little more for international flights. If it was a longer journey in, from Scotland for example, then you are already up against flying as an alternative so another ten minutes makes a real difference in competitiveness. I'm also not that keen on my through intercity-type journey with luggage in the racks suddenly having the doors open every two minutes for randoms to get on and off, or for the whole experience to suddenly turn into a cramped commuter train.

 

[WatcherZero]

Speaking from personal experience as someone who catches a lot of trains that originate from the Airport, if there is a delay and the slow is released before the fast it automatically compounds the delay to the train your waiting for and standing on Platform 13/14 in the cold as you see the delayed counter constantly ticking up before the slow clears the line is not a pleasant experience.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Mauldeth Road receives two trains per hour at best. Not four.

Knutsford has 100,000 passengers per year MORE than Mauldeth Road and currently receives one train per hour in each direction and a second one northbound in morning peak and shouthbound in evening peak.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't know where you drive but there is plenty of money being spent on roads in Yorkshire and Manchester areas. The M62 in particular has had two major upgrades to 'Smart Motorway' status. The SEMMS road by the airport, the lift bridge by the Trafford Centre; the A556 by-pass near Knutsford. I'm sure there are more that don't come to mind.
Both the Smart Motorway schemes cost c£200m each; SEMMS is c£300m; A556 is just short of £200m

Smart motorways are well and good when the traffic is flowing and the system can dectect choke points to slow traffic further down the road. But throw in the Pennine weather, the narrow lanes in sections, and regular accidents and as I'm sure you really know it becomes a unholy mess of a road. And as the only major motorway across the Pennines that can mean very long delays. Trust me, I have friends in the haulage business and the M62 is practically a swear word in their buisness .