Manchester Piccadilly P15/16 alignment; alternative development considered

[ys123]

Knutsford has 100,000 passengers per year MORE than Mauldeth Road and currently receives one train per hour in each direction and a second one northbound in morning peak and shouthbound in evening peak.

There are plenty of trains skipping Mauldeth Road and getting some of the ones that are not stopping at Mauldeth Road to stop there is gonna be a lot easier than to get extra trains at knutsford.

 

[ys123]

My only thing I would want to change is make all the TPE (and Northern) trains between Oxford Road and the Airport stop at all stations.

Stopping them all at Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury, Gatley and Heald Green does not substantially reduce their usefulness to people trying to get to the Airport from elsewhere.
But it does allow us to use a line through a heavily urbanised area that is otherwise going to waste.

It might be easier to get each train to stop at only one station, e.g. the Edinburgh/Glasgow-Manchester Airport train should stop at lets say Heald Green, the Blackpool-MIA train should stop lets say at Gatley, the North Wales-MIA actually does stop at East Didsbury etc... This way the extra time added is 2-3mins but all the stations will get 1-2 trains an hour extra...

 

[LOL The Irony]

There are plenty of trains skipping Mauldeth Road and getting some of the ones that are not stopping at Mauldeth Road to stop there is gonna be a lot easier than to get extra trains at knutsford.

I'm just pointing out that there are some more privileged than others.

 

[Altfish]

Smart motorways are well and good when the traffic is flowing and the system can dectect choke points to slow traffic further down the road. But throw in the Pennine weather, the narrow lanes in sections, and regular accidents and as I'm sure you really know it becomes a unholy mess of a road. And as the only major motorway across the Pennines that can mean very long delays. Trust me, I have friends in the haulage business and the M62 is practically a swear word in their buisness .

I'm not convinced by them myself, but you were stating that there had been little or no spending on roads; without research I gave you almost a billion pounds.

 

[ys123]

I'm just pointing out that there are some more privileged than others.

I'm not disagreeing that Knutsford could do with more trains but I see it as follows:

Town A has 1 train an hour and needs more trains per hour but to increase the number of trains an hour requires extra trains+staff but Town B who number 100,000people less than Town A has 2trains an hour but it is super simple to increase the number of trains an hour to 3-5.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not convinced by them myself, but you were stating that there had been little or no spending on roads; without research I gave you almost a billion pounds.

OK fair enough in terms of cost, but has there been anything major capacity wise? Have the chronic M62 problems been solved? Cost does not always equal value.

 

[Altfish]

OK fair enough in terms of cost, but has there been anything major capacity wise? Have the chronic M62 problems been solved? Cost does not always equal value.

The A556 Knutsford to Bowdon has made a hell of a difference; I suspect when it opens SMMS will make an impact

 

[furnessvale]

The A556 Knutsford to Bowdon has made a hell of a difference; I suspect when it opens SMMS will make an impact

Is that the new airport link from the A6, and do the initials stand for South Manchester Multi Modal Study?

If so, can anyone tell me what is multi modal about building roads, other than the obvious fact that it goes to an airport?

 

[WatcherZero]

In final form its just roads and bus routes (theres a bus only bridge for example).
The actual strategy had more recommending replacing class 101 and frequency improvements (done) airport western link and some new suburban stations (not done) Metrolink line to Stockport, cancelled by an incoming Stockport Lib Dem Council that didnt like trams as they thought they weren't aspirational enough for the middle class of Stockport.

 

[dggar]

Is that the new airport link from the A6, and do the initials stand for South Manchester Multi Modal Study?

If so, can anyone tell me what is multi modal about building roads, other than the obvious fact that it goes to an airport?

I think this the link from the M6 (J19) to the M56 (J7) being referred to. The A6 to Airport (from Hazel Grove) is still under construction.

Thread on SSC here
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1463632

 

[snowball]

I think this the link from the M6 (J19) to the M56 (J7) being referred to. The A6 to Airport (from Hazel Grove) is still under construction.

I don't think the previous posters are confused about the actual roads, merely mistaken in a minor way about the acronym that should be SEMMMS (South East Manchester Multi Modal Study) rather than SMMS.

The road currently sometimes referred to as SEMMMS has also been known over the many decades since it was first proposed by a variety of other names, such as MAELR and A6MARR. I'll call it A555.

Altfish in #67 was referring first to the A556, then the A555. furnessvale in #68 and WatcherZero in #69 were referring to the A555.

The final report of the South East Manchester Multi Modal Study dates from as long ago as 2001 and can still be read online:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjdpMmT17XZAhUmAsAKHR0IAecQFggpMAA&url=http://www.semmms.info/wp-content/uploads/SEMMMS-Strategy-Final-Report-2001.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3E6RSWStqrsvN-i-pGDZpz

 

[ffm]

I too am wondering how they are fitting an extra 3tph in each direction along the line.....

Sure they have removed the Scarborough - Liverpool which you could say punctuality wise was one of the worst. They have also removed Southport to the Airport but only off peak. So off peak we have only 1 extra train as far as I can tell. But still the punctuality down that corridor is horrendous so I am surprised the timetable works.

Removed the Scarborough to Liverpool trains from where? These services have had no changes to their routes at all.

 

[bbrez]

Removed the Scarborough to Liverpool trains from where? These services have had no changes to their routes at all.

But will from May '18.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Removed the Scarborough to Liverpool trains from where? These services have had no changes to their routes at all.

It goes via the Chat Moss from May 18 which is when we are talking about here regarding extra services along the Castlefield Corridor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are plenty of trains skipping Mauldeth Road and getting some of the ones that are not stopping at Mauldeth Road to stop there is gonna be a lot easier than to get extra trains at knutsford.

And Knutsford is a small town, at which an hourly frequency is not unusual. Mauldeth Road is in a city, and cities demand S-Bahn style frequencies.

That, or shove a tram (or just properly designed bus lanes) down the central reservation of the 50 route and close the local stations other than Gatley and Heald Green, and have half the trains serve each of those. I'm not sure demand from them to the Airport itself is huge, if it is keep East Didsbury for interchange.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

I would recommend keeping East Didsbury but moving things around there a little - you currently have a railway station on one side of Tesco, a tram stop on another and then all the buses terminating on the other side of the road at Parrs Wood. Combine the lot onto the Tesco site and you have a lovely inter-modal interchange for South Manchester.

Only problem is Tesco being in the way, of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would recommend keeping East Didsbury but moving things around there a little - you currently have a railway station on one side of Tesco, a tram stop on another and then all the buses terminating on the other side of the road at Parrs Wood. Combine the lot onto the Tesco site and you have a lovely inter-modal interchange for South Manchester.

Only problem is Tesco being in the way, of course.

That's very true. It is, however, quite an old and relatively small Tesco...would they be interested in upsizing onto another site? Is there one suitable very nearby? Making it more of an interchange could increase their income a bit from people changing there, so they might just agree to it.

I guess we're envisioning something a bit like Liverpool South Parkway?

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

That's very true. It is, however, quite an old and relatively small Tesco...would they be interested in upsizing onto another site? Is there one suitable very nearby? Making it more of an interchange could increase their income a bit from people changing there, so they might just agree to it.

I guess we're envisioning something a bit like Liverpool South Parkway?

True, they probably wouldn't mind being offered lots of money to move given the age of the supermarket! Most of the site is just carpark anyway - I think that would be the issue. A store of that size is catering for the "weekly shop brigade" - but since that trend (I believe?) is starting to die out, a smaller shop linked to the interchange and lots of development land to flog might well be an attractive option.

And yes, to Liverpool South Parkway - or perhaps Altrincham Interchange as an even more local example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, they probably wouldn't mind being offered lots of money to move given the age of the supermarket! Most of the site is just carpark anyway - I think that would be the issue. A store of that size is catering for the "weekly shop brigade" - but since that trend (I believe?) is starting to die out, a smaller shop linked to the interchange and lots of development land to flog might well be an attractive option.

Quite a few newer Tesco stores have made use of a smaller site by having the store on stilts over the car park. I reckon you'd get a good sized store on the present tramstop car park if you did that, going from an OS map.

If it went there they could have a bridge over the road from the interchange.

An interesting question would be how to bring the tram round to the site without preventing later extension to Stockport? Though given that trams can do steep gradients and tight corners it's probably possible.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

An interesting question would be how to bring the tram round to the site without preventing later extension to Stockport? Though given that trams can do steep gradients and tight corners it's probably possible.

Would you need to though? Say that Tesco and the P&R swapped sites (assuming we leave a corridor for the Metrolink line to continue on past it) then you could put the tram station on the current alignment, just a little bit to the west of where it is currently - right next to where it goes under the railway. Move EDY 300m north up the railway so that it sits right up next to it (and you can also improve over the existing ugly access arrangements at the same time). Then you can build the bus element next to it, linking the heavy rail and the light rail and Bob's your uncle.

 

[ys123]

Quite a few newer Tesco stores have made use of a smaller site by having the store on stilts over the car park. I reckon you'd get a good sized store on the present tramstop car park if you did that, going from an OS map.

If it went there they could have a bridge over the road from the interchange.

An interesting question would be how to bring the tram round to the site without preventing later extension to Stockport? Though given that trams can do steep gradients and tight corners it's probably possible.

How about Tesco building a superstore on top of this new interchange you're proposing, with a car park underground for both Tesco and the interchange?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about Tesco building a superstore on top of this new interchange you're proposing, with a car park underground for both Tesco and the interchange?

Could also work.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would you need to though? Say that Tesco and the P&R swapped sites (assuming we leave a corridor for the Metrolink line to continue on past it) then you could put the tram station on the current alignment, just a little bit to the west of where it is currently - right next to where it goes under the railway. Move EDY 300m north up the railway so that it sits right up next to it (and you can also improve over the existing ugly access arrangements at the same time). Then you can build the bus element next to it, linking the heavy rail and the light rail and Bob's your uncle.

There are times when I really do wonder if the car-borne supermarket shoppers are fully understood by armchair transport pundits. With regard to the Tesco site at East Didsbury being referred to, how many of the thread contributors have actually been inside that particular store. Has anyone carried out car park usage statistics on that supermarket site? Look at the location of that store. It is central to all major road connections.

There are two other retail complexes not too far removed from the East Didsbury site being referred to. At Cheadle Royal, there are the Sainsbury and the John Lewis sites and at Handforth Dean, there are the Tesco and Marks & Spencer sites. What do all these have in common. Large car parking facilities and good commuter road networks.

Supermarkets are not just for "weekly shop", every day you will find these stores busy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are times when I really do wonder if the car-borne supermarket shoppers are fully understood by armchair transport pundits. With regard to the Tesco site at East Didsbury being referred to, how many of the thread contributors have actually been inside that particular store.

When I was a student (before the Fallowfield Sainsbury's opened) I used to shop there all the time. It was the nearest "proper" supermarket to the Fallowfield campus easily accessible by public transport.

Has anyone carried out car park usage statistics on that supermarket site? Look at the location of that store. It is central to all major road connections.

There are two other retail complexes not too far removed from the East Didsbury site being referred to. At Cheadle Royal, there are the Sainsbury and the John Lewis sites and at Handforth Dean, there are the Tesco and Marks & Spencer sites. What do all these have in common. Large car parking facilities and good commuter road networks.

Supermarkets are not just for "weekly shop", every day you will find these stores busy.

I'm not clear how swapping it over with the Metrolink stop (with a car park under the store, as in Slough and Crewe to use two examples) would hamper that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not clear how swapping it over with the Metrolink stop (with a car park under the store, as in Slough and Crewe to use two examples) would hamper that.

The Tesco store is on the Manchester side of main A34 road/ Parrs Wood complex with all the south Manchester district roads on that side. The other site suggested is on the Stockport side of the A34. Those who actually drive cars and know of the area will know what my point is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Tesco store is on the Manchester side of main A34 road/ Parrs Wood complex with all the south Manchester district roads on that side. The other site suggested is on the Stockport side of the A34. Those who actually drive cars and know of the area will know what my point is.

What, that people are too impatient to wait for 2-3 minutes at the traffic lights to cross the A34?

I fail to see the problem. And I have driven around there too.

 

[rebmcr]

There is no problem with the idea. Those who actually live there (rather than somewhat further afield like Cheshire East) will know what I mean.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Much as the discussion on the possibility of re-use of South Manchester retail establishment sites give rise to fertile thoughts and the like, is it not a tad off-topic concerning the thread title?

It is not so very long ago that on SkyScraperCity, thoughts in a similar vein occurred to someone, who saw no problems in ensuring that two terminal west-facing platforms could be constructed at Manchester Victoria for the mere cost of relocating the very large events area to somewhere else in the city, cost being of no consequence..

Motto for that poor benighted soul...Do not ask for realism, as a refusal often offends.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I know, and you can't have a direct service from everywhere to everywhere, particularly where there is both a rolling stock shortage and a line capacity shortage.

TBH, this business, which is mostly on cheapo Advance tickets and does not heavily load the trains, might as well be let go. I disagree with you that it won't return. The same people may not return, but O'Leary wasn't wrong when he said other people will come along later.

It isn't OK wasting scarce DMUs shifting fresh air when there is a shortage.

Never. Gonna. Happen.

When permission was granted for the construction of Runway 2 one of the conditions was that the airport should seek to encourage the use of public transport by all airport users ie both employees and travellers. Buses, and now trams too, can make some contribution in that area for employees, particularly those living in south Manchester. But for airline passengers trains are a very much more attractive option especially when travelling from some distance away. The branch from Heald Green to the airport exists solely to serve the airport so it is inevitable that the airport is a very important stakeholder when it comes to any discussion about services using the branch. Given the need to promote use of public transport and knowing just how wide a catchment area is served by the airport you can be absolutely certain that any attempt to reduce the number of through services will meet with very stiff opposition by the airport. That's before you consider how many local authorities place a value on said through services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The branch from Heald Green to the airport exists solely to serve the airport so it is inevitable that the airport is a very important stakeholder when it comes to any discussion about services using the branch. Given the need to promote use of public transport and knowing just how wide a catchment area is served by the airport you can be absolutely certain that any attempt to reduce the number of through services will meet with very stiff opposition by the airport. That's before you consider how many local authorities place a value on said through services.

The Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe service, via Heald Green and Manchester Airport, is not to be forgotten as it gives a connectional point at both Wilmslow and at Crewe for major long-distance services.