Train driver 'freewheels' broken down train 13 MILES to London Euston after a power cut

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . this sort of intelligent well informed content that makes this forum so worthwhile

I agree.

thank you gentlemen

Oh dear! A significant proportion of my conversations with drivers on the ECML are with female drivers. It's quite depressing to see such dated language, belonging to an era of entrenched sexism, still being used today, despite the intention of such a well-meant compliment.

 

[Adlington]

It's quite depressing to see such dated language, belonging to an era of entrenched sexism, still being used today

It's even more depressing seeing political correctness enforced in this forum.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I think the old third-rail slammer 42x used to do this on the South Western lines. You could often hear a sudden 'knock' sound and the usual electric hum of the train disappear, often about a minute before stations. Can't remember where but presumably on a downhill stretch.

It's entirely normal to shut off and coast for periods of time prior to braking for a station/speed restriction. The idea of coasting in a train is completely different than a road vehicle. For starters, there's nowhere near as much friction in a train and coasting is a very energy efficient way of driving where schedules allow

 

[DarloRich]

Coasting Shap to Carnforth is possible. I regularly coast for 20 miles or more on some routes.

what is the speed drop off over that kind of distance? I assume quite a small amount due to lower levels of friction than you might experience in a car?

 

[Bald Rick]

Yeah, pretty weird to coast all the way if your losing time. If I was booked on the through platform and on Green then power all the way. I always get checked down for Radlet so I'm coasting by default from Elstree. We have some places where the difference between coasting and holding linespeed makes little to no difference. Guess which way my DM wants me to drive

A good / bad example tonight. Train was marginally delayed at Kentish Town waiting a conflicting move, and with the TSR at Cricklewood was running 3 min late. Train is booked DF to Bedford South. Driver elected to coast from Radlett to St Albans (on greens) resulting in the train losing further time and thus being 4 late arriving (and departing). At 3L the signallers will usually let it go DF as it will (just) keep out of the way of the following EMT. At 4L more often than not it will be switched to the DS. This is what happened tonight. End result is it was 10L at Bedford.

Now you could say that the root cause of the delay was the conflicting move at Kentish Town, and no doubt that is what TRUST will record. However had the driver not coasted, but driven as expected to the published schedule - which most drivers do - it would almost certainly have been on time (or very close) at Bedford.

On a busy railway with fine margins, every second counts.

 

[Adlington]

However had the driver not coasted

Is there a real reason for drivers to coast? Apart from "it's fun, let's do it...". Does the driver get a bonus if (s)he uses less electricity?

 

[furnessvale]

Is there a real reason for drivers to coast? Apart from "it's fun, let's do it...". Does the driver get a bonus if (s)he uses less electricity?

If you are running at line or train speed why apply power and overspeed. Conversely, if you are running late and below speed you need to try to get back on time.

Years ago, there was a train of bare car bodies on the WCML from England to Scotland hauled by an EE Type 4. The air resistance was so high it had to be powered down Shap to maintain timings.

 

[HowardGWR]

On a busy railway with fine margins, every second counts.

How true. I have been monitoring performance of a route about which I started a thread, namely Victoria to Portsmouth / Southampton via Barnham. It's uncanny, but I reckon to be able to know what sort of driver / dispatch staff are involved just by following the progress of trains on RTT. It just shouts at one from the page, although one needs to look at surrounding activities (in this case, whether they have been delayed on the BML and what's happening to coastal services) so as not to jump to conclusions. Some drivers will recover everything from quite serious delays, but not all, it seems.

 

[ComUtoR]

Driver elected to coast from Radlett to St Albans (on greens) resulting in the train losing further time and thus being 4 late arriving (and departing). At 3L the signallers will usually let it go DF as it will (just) keep out of the way of the following EMT. At 4L more often than not it will be switched to the DS. This is what happened tonight. End result is it was 10L at Bedford.

On Green I can't see any real reason not to push it and squeeze that minute back; especially with a 700. IF you can 100% say its green all the way then something seems off. However, we can see for miles up that gradient and pretty much all Drivers will coast when they see restrictive aspects in the distance. On the Slow, even when I'm booked up to Luton I still get restrictive into St Albans and the sequence acts like its 'Approach Control' So I will, regardless of time, coast up the gradient and when it 'steps up' pull the power.

Personally, I see naturally using the gradient to brake as the best option. Yeah its a fair distance to the Red but to push it to the Single Yellow and hit the anchor, breaks every principle of driving. Knowing where you get 'checked down' is important too, so what can also happen is that the Driver is driving proactively towards an expected sequence.

I've had a thought... As you are internal; I have no idea who you are or where you work. Why not grab a cab pass and spend a day with Drivers going up and down between Radlet and Albans ? Or even when you get to St Albans, knock on the Drivers window and introduce yourself and ask them ? Horses mouth and all that

On a busy railway with fine margins, every second counts.

Having it so tight all the time means it will break at the slightest sneeze. Who takes that responsibility ? There is so much that breaks the SRT that they are impossible to keep. Unless we all work together it will just get worse.

*edit* Just had another thought. Maybe the Driver was already at 100mph

 

[ComUtoR]

Is there a real reason for drivers to coast? Apart from "it's fun, let's do it...". Does the driver get a bonus if (s)he uses less electricity?

It's not 'fun'. It has a practical purpose and is a required driving skill. It may also be part of the TOCs driving policy.

Anyone who drives a car will also tell you where they coast, or ease off the accelerator.

 

[telstarbox]

Ditto for a bicycle

 

[Verulamius]

I think that the train referred to above was the 1W96 yesterday? http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G73630/2018/01/25/advanced

A comparison can be made with the 1W94, 30 mins previously, which was slightly less late at St Albans, not put onto the slow at Harpenden and arrived into Bedford around 1 min late. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G73628/2018/01/25/advanced

 

[ComUtoR]

I think that the train referred to above was the 1W96 yesterday? http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G73630/2018/01/25/advanced

It really does highlight where delays come from.

If the train maintained its sectional time between Cricklewood and St Albans then the Drivers driving style has had no impact on the trains time whatsoever. Therefore; coasting had no impact on the delay. As I highlighted earlier. Using either technique makes minimal difference.

Would it have made the time back ? That is the million dollar question. I couldn't say either way. 1W94 was +2 at the same point but still arrived +3 at St Albans. Who's to say it coasted or powered it all the way. The Driver who coasted maintained the time. The other one lost +1 :/

Would the regulation to the slow have been done ? It depends when that decision is made. At what point did the Signaler decide to switch it over to the slow. I find that the Signaler has decided well in advance what to do and even if I get back to time, I still get switched over. Therefore; why push it ?

It is the kind of decision we are making on the fly at 100mph. What I can add is that the timetable comes second to everything else. Forcing Drivers to push it to maximum and push the limits to squeeze back a single minute would increase the number of incidents. That would be bad policy and bad driving.

I do get the impression that because PPM exists, the odd minutes between stations nobody has really been concerned over. If we hit PPM then all is good. +10 into Bedford and that's down to being regulated onto the slow. :/

 

[louis97]

A good / bad example tonight. Train was marginally delayed at Kentish Town waiting a conflicting move, and with the TSR at Cricklewood was running 3 min late. Train is booked DF to Bedford South. Driver elected to coast from Radlett to St Albans (on greens) resulting in the train losing further time and thus being 4 late arriving (and departing). At 3L the signallers will usually let it go DF as it will (just) keep out of the way of the following EMT. At 4L more often than not it will be switched to the DS. This is what happened tonight. End result is it was 10L at Bedford.

Now you could say that the root cause of the delay was the conflicting move at Kentish Town, and no doubt that is what TRUST will record. However had the driver not coasted, but driven as expected to the published schedule - which most drivers do - it would almost certainly have been on time (or very close) at Bedford.

On a busy railway with fine margins, every second counts.

If 1W94 is the train you were on, its worth noting it did have a late running EMT service behind it. The 1800 from St Pancras, so this could of impacted on the decision to cross it over to the slow lines at Radlett. It could, potentially, of crossed over at Harpenden, but if you look at the timetable that would of clashed with an up service that was on time and booked to crossover to the fast lines there.

 

[greyman42]

I agree.
Oh dear! A significant proportion of my conversations with drivers on the ECML are with female drivers. It's quite depressing to see such dated language, belonging to an era of entrenched sexism, still being used today, despite the intention of such a well-meant compliment.

Chill out mate.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there a real reason for drivers to coast? Apart from "it's fun, let's do it...". Does the driver get a bonus if (s)he uses less electricity?

Well there was a scheme on TPE and FGW where drivers took a share of the fuel saved through coasting, but that doesn't apply here. There is good reason to coast - it saves fuel, brake wear, and it is a key part of drivers' technique. However it should only be deployed where it won't adversely affect punctuality.

On Green I can't see any real reason not to push it and squeeze that minute back; especially with a 700. IF you can 100% say its green all the way then something seems off. However, we can see for miles up that gradient and pretty much all Drivers will coast when they see restrictive aspects in the distance. On the Slow, even when I'm booked up to Luton I still get restrictive into St Albans and the sequence acts like its 'Approach Control' So I will, regardless of time, coast up the gradient and when it 'steps up' pull the power.

Personally, I see naturally using the gradient to brake as the best option. Yeah its a fair distance to the Red but to push it to the Single Yellow and hit the anchor, breaks every principle of driving. Knowing where you get 'checked down' is important too, so what can also happen is that the Driver is driving proactively towards an expected sequence.

I've had a thought... As you are internal; I have no idea who you are or where you work. Why not grab a cab pass and spend a day with Drivers going up and down between Radlet and Albans ? Or even when you get to St Albans, knock on the Drivers window and introduce yourself and ask them ? Horses mouth and all that

Yep, I'm sure they were green, the train in front was at Luton when we were at Radlett; and even if I didn't believe Open Train Times Maps the ping of the AWS gives it away

I've done enough cab rides in the past though; as with all professions drivers are not all the same in their technique! My first ever cab ride was on an empty coal train that saw us over a 20 TSR at about 45 as "it doesn't matter so much when we're empty". (That was a long time before OTMR though).

If 1W94 is the train you were on, its worth noting it did have a late running EMT service behind it. The 1800 from St Pancras, so this could of impacted on the decision to cross it over to the slow lines at Radlett. It could, potentially, of crossed over at Harpenden, but if you look at the timetable that would of clashed with an up service that was on time and booked to crossover to the fast lines there.

I was on 1W96. It went slow line at Harpenden, instead of the booked Bedford South. It did indeed have a late running EMT behind it (1M61) although that stops at Luton and would have incurred perhaps only 2 mins additional delay had 1W96 stayed fast line and done exactly what it did but without the coasting. The latter would also have got to Bedford on time.

Anyway, enough, I'll get off my high horse.

 

[rd749249]

Plenty of opportunities to coast on the Great Eastern mainline. I’ve heard from other drivers that they’ve coasted from Shenfield to Liverpool Street ECS. I’ve tried it once the up electric but got stopped at Seven Kings. I reckon I would have made it all the way, even over Ilford flyover, if it wasn’t for the signals.

 

[johnnychips]

Just to echo others, this is one of the most interesting threads I've read on the forum: especial thanks to the drivers who have contributed. Do you think coasting takes place on TPE from Edale to the Grindleford tunnel? I've just assumed they've turned one 185 engine off, but having read this, perhaps it's both.

EDIT: not sure how many engines a 185 has, though!

 

[driver9000]

what is the speed drop off over that kind of distance? I assume quite a small amount due to lower levels of friction than you might experience in a car?

Not sure about Shap to Carnforth as Oxenholme keeps getting in the way but I will give it a go soon just to see. Coasting towards Edinburgh from Cobbinshaw or Midcalder our trains will hold their speed without gaining or losing momentum.

 

[DanTrain]

Just to echo others, this is one of the most interesting threads I've read on the forum: especial thanks to the drivers who have contributed. Do you think coasting takes place from Edale to the Grindleford tunnel? I've just assumed they've turned one 185 engine off, but having read this, perhaps it's both.

Agreed, an excellent thread!

I doubt you’d get all the way to Grindleford unless there’s a lower speed at the Tunnel, as it’s fairly uphill Hathersage to Grindleford?

 

[louis97]

I was on 1W96. It went slow line at Harpenden, instead of the booked Bedford South. It did indeed have a late running EMT behind it (1M61) although that stops at Luton and would have incurred perhaps only 2 mins additional delay had 1W96 stayed fast line and done exactly what it did but without the coasting. The latter would also have got to Bedford on time.

No idea what I was doing when I wrote that post, I mean't 1W96, and I didn't even pick up it went over at Harpenden. Must of been half asleep!

 

[johnnychips]

I doubt you’d get all the way to Grindleford unless there’s a lower speed at the Tunnel, as it’s fairly uphill Hathersage to Grindleford?

Thanks Dan - I knew it must flatten out somewhere, but I wasn't sure where.

 

[Domh245]

Thanks Dan - I knew it must flatten out somewhere, but I wasn't sure where.

It's downhill all the way from the cowburn tunnel portal to just after Bamford before rising again towards Grindleford. It goes from 860ft at the tunnel portal, to 498ft past bamford, and back up to 542ft at Grindleford.

I think it's a flat 70mph throughout for 185s, bar a stretch of 40mph coming out of cowburn

 

[driver_m]

You'd also be surprised at how much coasting is done on the WCML. There are boards for coasting in the Northampton Loop and you can roll for considerable distance round there at 75mph, the driving technique round there is different for us on VT because we've effectively lost our path, probably likely to get delayed by a 350 so no point hammering it just to get a single yellow (3 aspect signalling round there which is an additional issue to deal with). Even on the regular route though, there's no point taking power. I've regularly took off the power at the Birdcage heading to Rugby and then left it as I know I will catch the Birmingham going into pl1 at Rugby, I'll be doing 125 on shutoff and it will drop off to about 100 or even less but that way I get greens at Hilmorton and then power it back up again without losing any time. Weaver Jn- Crewe is another one. The only train it's not really practical with is a 221 as the speed just falls off them so quickly, so only of use when you have a stop or check coming up.

 

[Crossover]

Just to echo others, this is one of the most interesting threads I've read on the forum: especial thanks to the drivers who have contributed. Do you think coasting takes place on TPE from Edale to the Grindleford tunnel? I've just assumed they've turned one 185 engine off, but having read this, perhaps it's both.

EDIT: not sure how many engines a 185 has, though!

A single 185 has three engines, one on each coach. An engine dropping out is a programatic thing, managed by the train and its systems, designed to save both fuel and engine hours as I recall (I believe maintenance is done based on running time). The dropped engine alternates coaches each time to balance out the fuel and wear and is most noticeable when stopped at a station when it shudders back to life. I can't recall an engine doing this when the train is in motion

 

[theageofthetra]

Is there a real reason for drivers to coast? Apart from "it's fun, let's do it...". Does the driver get a bonus if (s)he uses less electricity?

Well only in France. I believe they still get a payment that replaces the low coal usage bonus.

 

[theageofthetra]

A single 185 has three engines, one on each coach. An engine dropping out is a programatic thing, managed by the train and its systems, designed to save both fuel and engine hours as I recall (I believe maintenance is done based on running time). The dropped engine alternates coaches each time to balance out the fuel and wear and is most noticeable when stopped at a station when it shudders back to life. I can't recall an engine doing this when the train is in motion

Which makes no sense- I suspect it's done to save on maintenance . A Diesel engine running at roughly a constant rpm for hours/days/weeks is incredibly efficient- look at ships. The stopping/starting and getting them to an optimum rpm is the problem

 

[The Lad]

But ship engines can run at constant power for hours or days at a time, there won't be many places where a train will be on constant power for more than 15 min at a time.

 

[driver_m]

But ship engines can run at constant power for hours or days at a time, there won't be many places where a train will be on constant power for more than 15 min at a time.

You haven't tried driving a voyager with an engine out . Definitely more than 15 minutes on the power!

 

[cin88]

I often wondered during my Manchester-Liverpool commuting days how much of both lines to MAN/MCO in both directions could be coasted before the loss of speed was too much (assuming the express calling patterns are being used). Any Northern/TPE/EMT drivers happen to know?