Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Bantamzen]

A couple of questions here if I may? Firstly does the SRA code specify exactly where and what size said notices must be other than at the entrances to PF areas? And secondly given that the SRA is long since disbanded was the code fully transferred to DfT rail group and without subsiquent amendment?

 

[Moonshot]

Well as the guards on the lines concerned still carry card readers, I guess they are still allowed to take card payments. So therefore those said ranger, priv and season tickets can still be bought on board. The PTP will simply prove that a passenger has boarded a station in the area that a ranger or season is applicable in and not been fare dodging from somewhere else.

Here's a bit of out of the box thinking though. Has anyone worried about it actually asked Northern about it? Just a thought like....

Indeed , I really cannot see what all the fuss is about.....at the end of the day, Northern are making stronger attempts to collect revenue that may otherwise be lost to the industry. Anyone on this thread who boards a train without a ticket should go see someone like me and purchase whatever you want to, I ll happily earn a bit of commission. I had a bit of a field day the other day in West Yorkshire as it happens selling all sorts of weird and wonderful combinations.....clearly there are some who are very clued in with split tickets as an example.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Had a good look around Steeton and Silsden station this morning.

On the northbound platform, there is a Penalty Fare warning sign screwed to the fence on the right side of the entrance ramp. It's low down and hidden by a poster cabinet, so you could easily miss it! There's also a notice at the separate entrance from the carpark to to the northbound platform; this one is more obvious. However, there is still absolutely no signage telling northbound passengers that the station even has a TVM or where to find it (over the road bridge, on the southbound platform). Do penalty fares even apply travelling northbound from Steeton & Silsden? Northern haven't made this very clear at all.

On the southbound platform there is a single sign at the top of the entrance ramp, plus a poster on the platform explaining about "Promise to Pay". The impeccably programmed TVM wasn't working on Saturday evening but they had fixed it by this morning (bonus content).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I certainly wouldn't. I only saw the one on the Northbound platform at Keighley because I was looking for them.

No.

For a start if you enter the station on to Platform 1 via the pathway and gate which leads from the college and car park, then there is no notice to be seen at all.

When entering the station via any other entrance the signs are not immediately obvious at all. They are not in the line of sight and do not stand out particularly due to their size and location.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A couple of questions here if I may? Firstly does the SRA code specify exactly where and what size said notices must be other than at the entrances to PF areas? And secondly given that the SRA is long since disbanded was the code fully transferred to DfT rail group and without subsiquent amendment?

The SRA rules say what they say. They do not prescribe exact size nor location. That would be rather impractical without the SRA first surveying every station. That is the applicants duty - to ensure that they meet the rules.

Are they still in force?
The franchise (extract up thread, post #182) requires Northern to introduce a Penalty Fares Scheme, and to secure the necessary permission under Section 130 of the Act.

use best endeavours to implement Penalty Fare Zones on 60% of all Routes by 31 December 2019 and on all remaining Routes by 31 December 2022. The
Franchisee shall be responsible for obtaining any approval required under Section 130 of the Act prior to the implementation of the Penalty Fare Zone

Have they been amended?
I don't know, I have looked, I have sought information but no response has been received to date. Perhaps it will come gift-wrapped in time for Crimbo. The DfT website contains exactly zero on the subject of penalty fares. Not even a legacy / archived web page. The Northern website contains the press release and some pizzpoor Q & A linked to in a previous post. ORR make it quite clear that it's nowt to do with them.

 

[yorkie]

I would agree, but what if some RP staff started wanting to inspect tickets for K&WVR passengers because technically the signs indidcate the start of the PF zone? That really would be a can of worms so I can understand why they are where they are.

What do you mean by "the start of the Penalty Fare Zone"? Are you confused about Compulsory Ticket Areas (CTAs)?

Well as the guards on the lines concerned still carry card readers, I guess they are still allowed to take card payments. So therefore those said ranger, priv and season tickets can still be bought on board. The PTP will simply prove that a passenger has boarded a station in the area that a ranger or season is applicable in and not been fare dodging from somewhere else.

So do you think Northern should alter the wording to include this scenario?

Here's a bit of out of the box thinking though. Has anyone worried about it actually asked Northern about it? Just a thought like....

Northern have something like a 2 month waiting list for correspondence to be answered.

...Northern are making stronger attempts to collect revenue that may otherwise be lost to the industry....

That isn't what they are doing

I can understand strong feelings against Northern on here from members of staff, but from a wider perspective they have been improving for most passengers and for most this new policy simply means a trip to the ticket machine before getting onboard.

You make it sound so easy! OK, I arrive at Garforth from the north side of the town, it is the evening peak, I am going towards York, I am using a Rail Travel Voucher for £10 and the rest is by card. Where do I go from here? How long do I have to arrive before my train departs?

Its really not a hardship for most, and is pretty standard on rail networks around the world.

Northern is the only operator in the world that I know of that operates a "promise to pay" scheme in the same format.

So like I have said previously, I cautiously welcome this scheme providing of course they ensure that passengers are given at least some more information on what is expected of them, and the policy is handled sensibly especially in the first few months as it beds in. So why doesn't everyone at least see just how it actually works out, instead of leaping to conclusions and making assumptions? I for one as a user of these lines daily be very interested to see just how it pans out, and if it works and reduces the chronic fare evasion I see on a regular basis I will welcome it.

Are you not aware of what Northern have been up to recently? See this thread.

Oh please give it a rest, your instance on searching for some possible reason for this to be something sinister is rapidly becoming tedious. I get it, you don't like Northern / Arriva for whatever reason

Thre are plenty of reasons for concern in this thread .

and are looking for more reasons again. Meanwhile people on the two lines involved went about their business as usual, there were no massive issues, no sinister Northern contracted staff dragging people away for daring to walk past a TVM, no riots, no civil unrest. Just a minor change which required people without a ticket to obtain one before boarding

Weren't people supposed to obtain a ticket before boarding if possible anyway?

But on your behalf,I have contacted the UN to deal with this blatant crime against humanity, although they did seem to hang up the phone....

If you think this is trivial, why are you still posting on this thread? It's easy for you to dismiss concerns, but how would you like it if you had the means to pay for a journey and were offering to pay at the first apparent opportunity and yet the contractor working on behalf of Northern said they were not issuing you with one and asked you for ID, and then you get a letter telling you it'll cost you money to pay the fare and you can't use your chosen payment method and if you didn't sort it out (at your own expense) within 21 days there would be serious consequences.

As this has not happened to you, maybe you do not know how others might feel about it Just a thought!

 

[yorkie]

Yorkie, with the greatest respect you display the same bias against Northern as Starmill does. Indeed you both now share the same signature picture. So allow me to reiterate, I have never had any of the kind of problems discussed in that thread, nor have I seen or heard of others that I know having so.

Maybe that's why you think they're so great, though I do not understand your lack of understanding of others predicaments.

I'm sorry but my experience with Northern is very different, and I expect the same is true of most others. I have seen many a complaint in social media of course, but like local media sites after a while the same names pop up time and again.

So again with respect, you will forgive me for being more than a bit cynical about the supposed wave of opposition to Northern. And I hope you will forgive me for thinking the moaning about the scheme has been going on far longer than it has been in operation.

With respect, you will forgive me for being more than a bit cynical about your wave of support for Northern.

 

[Bantamzen]

Indeed , I really cannot see what all the fuss is about.....at the end of the day, Northern are making stronger attempts to collect revenue that may otherwise be lost to the industry. Anyone on this thread who boards a train without a ticket should go see someone like me and purchase whatever you want to, I ll happily earn a bit of commission. I had a bit of a field day the other day in West Yorkshire as it happens selling all sorts of weird and wonderful combinations.....clearly there are some who are very clued in with split tickets as an example.

Thanks again Moonshot. The feedback from those actually doing the job is so valuable. Members here can speculate all they like, but the bottom line is the people working the system or close to it know best.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Do penalty fares even apply travelling northbound from Steeton & Silsden? Northern haven't made this very clear at all.

If it has signs, it is a Penalty Fares Station. But it should be clear whether some or all trains from that station are Penalty Fares Trains. The sign at Leeds, posted upthread, is incorrect as the 'small print' at the bottom refers to Penalty Fares applying only to Northern trains from that station. No they don't, not yet at least. They apply to specific services to specific stations only.

There was a list of stations as part of the press release, but the current on-line version has no list of stations. Perhaps it was elsewhere.

EDIT found the list, it is in the 'note to editors' on the version linked to above so does not appear in the actual press notice itself.

The stations at which penalty fares will apply are:

• Leeds
• Apperley Bridge
• Shipley
• Frizinghall
• Bradford Forster Square
• Saltaire
• Bingley
• Crossflats
• Keighley
• Steeton and Silsden
• Cononley
• Skipton
• Kirkstall Forge
• Baildon
• Guiseley
• Menston
• Burley in Wharefdale
• Ben Rhydding
• Ilkley

Signs must be removed from stations which cease to be Penalty Fares Stations. Signs should be covered up prior to the launch of the scheme and if, heaven forbid, the scheme is suspended for failure to comply with the relevant legislation. Not that DfT would bother themselves with such things as enforcement.

If pictures one and two are the only entrances to the station, then I would suggest that signs are displayed and are clearly visible.

You have to cross to the TVM on the other platform, and back again, just as you would if it were a ticket office.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks again Moonshot. The feedback from those actually doing the job is so valuable. Members here can speculate all they like, but the bottom line is the people working the system or close to it know best.

I have had feedback from Northern staff (including Guards) who have contacted me directly with all sorts of concerns. The bottom line is that their concerns are very valid concerns and Northern refuses to address them.

 

[Moonshot]

I have had feedback from Northern staff (including Guards) who have contacted me directly with all sorts of concerns. The bottom line is that their concerns are very valid concerns and Northern refuses to address them.

Have you got one example?

 

[Moonshot]

Thanks again Moonshot. The feedback from those actually doing the job is so valuable. Members here can speculate all they like, but the bottom line is the people working the system or close to it know best.

Your welcome....as an addition to this, my partner works as contract gateline staff .....I do get to hear some interesting anecdotes off the train so to speak

 

[Bantamzen]

With respect, you will forgive me for being more than a bit cynical about your wave of support for Northern.

With equal respect Yorkie you mistake my wave of support for Northern for cynicism towards people too eager to line up to moan about anything they can. I don't for a minute pretend that Northen are prefect, but quite frankly all I have seen on this thread is speculation and nitpicking, much of which is based around a code of an authority which was disbanded over ten years ago.

I don't doubt that many Northern staff have grievances against their employer. However as a former TU rep, I know only too well there is always two sides to a story. I have always supported Northern guards in their action, even though trains have run on strike days I have always refused to use them.

But the bottom line here is that the grievances against this scheme are based on certain members feelings towards the company. As a very regular, and very pragmatic passenger I simply cannot support the views of those here negative to them. In the last decade services have improved, punctuality has improved, the status of the trains has improved, and overall my satisfaction has improved.

The one issue that has always annoyed me was the lack of revenue protection, because that costs me as a customer. So once again I cautiously welcome the new scheme, and if I am totally honest I can't help wondering if those that oppose it have agendas.

 

[yorkie]

Have you got one example?

What do you want an example of? Have you read the Carlisle Security and Northern Rail: major concerns thread?

 

[Starmill]

The posters at Steeton & Silsden are a black-and-white contravention of the information on the NRE payment methods website, the guidance for staff travel from RSTL and the Penalty Fare legislation which requires adequate opportunities to purchase tickets before boarding (not fulfilled by machines which omit a large range of tickets from sale). NRCoT condition 6.1 is without doubt being breached by Northern, and I can't see how condition 6.3 (a) could possibly be satisfied simultaneously with the circumstances as outlined on the poster.

Northern are brazenly producing material which is non-compliant with these things while operating a penalty fare scheme in a unique way, different from every other operator who has one. Their intentions are crystal clear: they want the right to charge people penalty fares without concerning themselves with their own responsibilities on the matter. It's plan that after all, this is all it really is.

 

[Moonshot]

What do you want an example of? Have you read the Carlisle Security and Northern Rail: major concerns thread?

An example of a guards concern expressed to you ?

 

[Moonshot]

With equal respect Yorkie you mistake my wave of support for Northern for cynicism towards people too eager to line up to moan about anything they can. I don't for a minute pretend that Northen are prefect, but quite frankly all I have seen on this thread is speculation and nitpicking, much of which is based around a code of an authority which was disbanded over ten years ago.

I don't doubt that many Northern staff have grievances against their employer. However as a former TU rep, I know only too well there is always two sides to a story. I have always supported Northern guards in their action, even though trains have run on strike days I have always refused to use them.

But the bottom line here is that the grievances against this scheme are based on certain members feelings towards the company. As a very regular, and very pragmatic passenger I simply cannot support the views of those here negative to them. In the last decade services have improved, punctuality has improved, the status of the trains has improved, and overall my satisfaction has improved.

The one issue that has always annoyed me was the lack of revenue protection, because that costs me as a customer. So once again I cautiously welcome the new scheme, and if I am totally honest I can't help wondering if those that oppose it have agendas.

This issue came up regularly in feedback to our line managers....in the sense that there were certain hotspot areas where we really couldnt do anything to collect revenue from one stop evaders. Interestingly we were all coming up with the same hotspots.

 

[yorkie]

With equal respect Yorkie you mistake my wave of support for Northern for cynicism towards people too eager to line up to moan about anything they can.

I fight for what's right.

I don't for a minute pretend that Northen are prefect, but quite frankly all I have seen on this thread is speculation and nitpicking, much of which is based around a code of an authority which was disbanded over ten years ago.

Valid concerns have been expressed; if anyone is nitpicking it is those who support Northern and seek to dismiss those valid concerns. I do not know what you mean by "based around a code of an authority which was disbanded over ten years ago"; the Penalty Fare Rules are still in force, so if you are trying to suggest that Northern do not have to abide by the rules, you're mistaken.

I don't doubt that many Northern staff have grievances against their employer. However as a former TU rep, I know only too well there is always two sides to a story. I have always supported Northern guards in their action, even though trains have run on strike days I have always refused to use them.

Is it the case that you are keen take the views of Northern staff as gospel if they suit your argument, but not the other way around? That's how it looks.

But the bottom line here is that the grievances against this scheme are based on certain members feelings towards the company.

But the bottom line here is that the grievances against this scheme are based on many peoples experiences and concerns regarding the track record of the behaviour of the company.

As a very regular, and very pragmatic passenger I simply cannot support the views of those here negative to them. In the last decade services have improved, punctuality has improved, the status of the trains has improved, and overall my satisfaction has improved.

As a regular user also I cannot support the views of those who refuse to acknowledge valid concerns.

The one issue that has always annoyed me was the lack of revenue protection, because that costs me as a customer. So once again I cautiously welcome the new scheme, and if I am totally honest I can't help wondering if those that oppose it have agendas.

Our agenda is that we do not want people to be unduly inconvenienced, harassed, accused, delayed and penalised and if I am totally honest I can't help wondering if those that support Northern have agendas.

 

[Kite159]

The posters at Steeton & Silsden are a black-and-white contravention of the information on the NRE payment methods website, the guidance for staff travel from RSTL and the Penalty Fare legislation which requires adequate opportunities to purchase tickets before boarding (not fulfilled by machines which omit a large range of tickets from sale). NRCoT condition 6.1 is without doubt being breached by Northern, and I can't see how condition 6.3 (a) could possibly be satisfied simultaneously with the circumstances as outlined on the poster.

I wonder how the passengers of the South East cope when boarding at unstaffed stations (or stations where the ticket office is only open part of the day) where there is only the single TVM as the sole means to purchasing tickets, sometimes even being card only...

 

[yorkie]

I wonder how the passengers of the South East cope when boarding at unstaffed stations (or stations where the ticket office is only open part of the day) where there is only the single TVM as the sole means to purchasing tickets, sometimes even being card only...

They would simply be able to board the train and pay with cash, generally. There is no requirement in the South East to use a card-only TVM to issue a "promise to pay".

Permit To Travel machines have been out of favour for quite some time now, largely being made redundant by modern TVMs.

 

[Starmill]

I wonder how the passengers of the South East cope when boarding at unstaffed stations (or stations where the ticket office is only open part of the day) where there is only the single TVM as the sole means to purchasing tickets, sometimes even being card only...

By not being given penalty fares. These examples don't generally arise. Wherever they do, Permits to Travel are provided. Northern have decided that they do not wish to offer Permits to Travel.

 

[Moonshot]

What is the definition of a reasonable opportunity to purchase your ticket before travel?

 

[Moonshot]

What is the definition of a reasonable opportunity to purchase your ticket before travel?

Anyone care to have a go at this?

 

[yorkie]

Anyone care to have a go at this?

No queues (or only a very short wait, and certainly within the times specified in most TOCs charters), the relevant payment method being accepted, the relevant fare being available, and no requirement to cross to the wrong platform and back again, and certainly no requirement to go hunting around for a ticket machine that is very well hidden.

 

[Moonshot]

No queues (or only a very short wait, and certainly within the times specified in most TOCs charters), the relevant payment method being accepted, the relevant fare being available, and no requirement to cross to the wrong platform and back again, and certainly no requirement to go hunting around for a ticket machine that is very well hidden.

So assuming thats your personal opinion, in effect its a minimum 1 TVM per platform ?

 

[yorkie]

So assuming thats your personal opinion, in effect its a minimum 1 TVM per platform ?

At a station like Garforth, then as a minimum yes, and if it's a requirement to use then, their location should be made clear. And no penalising people if there is a lengthy queue or if one of the TVMs is out of action.

 

[Moonshot]

Looking at the term " reasonable opportunity ", I m not clear how that would be defined legally , but if I made the assumption that in this penalty zone area which Northern now have, I would guess that 1 TVM per station would be reasonable.

 

[yorkie]

Looking at the term " reasonable opportunity ", I m not clear how that would be defined legally , but if I made the assumption that in this penalty zone area which Northern now have, I would guess that 1 TVM per station would be reasonable.

It is difficult to define, but at a station such as Church Fenton (only one entrance, but many platforms) one would suffice, whereas Garforth would require at least two.

 

[IanXC]

This thread has been reviewed and a significant amount of staff time taken considering various issues. Of late discussion of actual issues on the ground in this scheme has been lost amongst hyperbole and conjecture which has caused arguments and upset.

As a result of this I would like to bring everyone's attention to the Forum Rules. Two parts in particular:

Respectful

• Do not post material which in any way discriminates against, or provokes, any person or group of persons.

Try to think about that rule and particular the section underlined before posting. Some of the posts on this thread could be quite provocative to other members. I think sometimes because the posters making them don't go back and proofread their posts so things might not sound as they intended. Just stop and think before posting if what you're saying is actually clear.

And finally this one:

Respectful

• We aim to create a friendly environment for all members, where individuals respect each other. Please ensure your contributions comply with this.

It would appear that on a few occasions people on this thread were not keeping these rules in mind whilst posting and this has caused off-topic discussion and unnecessary rancour and anger/upset. Please can we try and tone our posts down. By all means disagree with each other but do so in a way that keeps the above in mind. There is no need to resort to name calling and insults.

Finally something else I would like people to keep in mind is that if there is a misunderstanding about what a poster means rather than assuming the worst and have a dig why not ask for clarification first? It might be that you're actually in a agreement or a clarification can help you and others understand what is being said. We want a friendly atmosphere. Jumping on people without giving them chance to clarify or explain their point is not conducive to that.

Many thanks,
IanXC

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I have further trawled the internet.

Penalty Services, a main processor of Penalty Fares appeals, have the SRA Penalty Fares Rules 2002 and SRA Penalty Fares Policy 2002 on their website as reference documents. So I think it reasonable to assume that they are current.