Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[Bletchleyite]

I've just made a journey on a Northern train, the ticket office was closed and the ticket machine went out of order as the person ahead of me in the queue inserted their card. The member of staff then came over and told us that we should take pictures of the machine and get on the train. This really shocking, they clearly don't have any way of checking remotely if the machines work.

There are all sorts of ways in which a TVM can fail without it being reported back. An example might be a vandal having blocked the card slot with something unpleasant.

This is why I quite like the Metrolink policy - broken TVM = you have to call for a reference number (which, while it's a faff, does entitle you to an actually free journey). That way it gets reported quickly.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I've just made a journey on a Northern train, the ticket office was closed and the ticket machine went out of order as the person ahead of me in the queue inserted their card. The member of staff then came over and told us that we should take pictures of the machine and get on the train. This really shocking, they clearly don't have any way of checking remotely if the machines work.

I hope someone questioned them about what if you didn't have something you can take photos with on you (or if the battery was dead etc).

 

[Bantamzen]

Having just boarded a train at Keighley I can confirm:

There are no notices as you enter the station via either of the 2 ramps.
There are no notices inside or outside the ticket office.
There is no notice as you enter via the side gate from the college.

There are only 2 small notices I could see - each only about A3 size, or perhaps very slightly bigger. One was stuck to a window half way down the ramp to platform 1 and isn't immediately obvious. The other is on the wall at the bottom of the ramp onto platform 2.

As the Penalty Fare scheme rules, from memory, state you can only be issued a PF if the notices are on clear display at every entrance to the compulsory ticket area - which they are not - then anyone boarding at Keighley couldn't be issued a PF.

Furthermore the station only has one TVM which is inside the booking hall which is locked when the office is closed.

Regarding the notices, perhaps they have to be on the ramps as the rest of the station is shared with the access to the K&WVR, hence not a PF area?

 

[sheff1]

I'm actually quite surprised you don't have to select your ticket and have the amount due printed on it.

That, of course, would be much a much better solution. The Promise to Pay ticket would be akin to an invoice with the amount due being 100% clear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That, of course, would be much a much better solution. The Promise to Pay ticket would be akin to an invoice with the amount due being 100% clear.

Agreed. Then no excuse for "sorry, I didn't realise it would be that much" - checking you can afford it would be effectively part of the process.

 

[cactustwirly]

Regarding the notices, perhaps they have to be on the ramps as the rest of the station is shared with the access to the K&WVR, hence not a PF area?

Doesn't matter, there should still be notices on all the entrances.

 

[cactustwirly]

That, of course, would be much a much better solution. The Promise to Pay ticket would be akin to an invoice with the amount due being 100% clear.

What if the ticket you want, isn't available/selectable from a TVM? Ie WY Dayrover etc.

 

[Bantamzen]

Doesn't matter, there should still be notices on all the entrances.

I would agree, but what if some RP staff started wanting to inspect tickets for K&WVR passengers because technically the signs indidcate the start of the PF zone? That really would be a can of worms so I can understand why they are where they are.

 

[moliones]

I would agree, but what if some RP staff started wanting to inspect tickets for K&WVR passengers because technically the signs indidcate the start of the PF zone? That really would be a can of worms so I can understand why they are where they are.

Wouldn't that be a problem if it were a Compulsory Ticket Area, not a penalty fare station?

 

[Moonshot]

Has anyone got a copy of what these promise to pays look like?

 

[30907]

I've just made a journey on a Northern train, the ticket office was closed and the ticket machine went out of order as the person ahead of me in the queue inserted their card. The member of staff then came over and told us that we should take pictures of the machine and get on the train. This really shocking, they clearly don't have any way of checking remotely if the machines work.

Or perhaps they do, but there is a risk that the information would not be received by onboard or barrier staff before you encountered them, potentially only 5 minutes later?

 

[ainsworth74]

Has anyone got a copy of what these promise to pays look like?

Post #240 of this very thread!

 

[Starmill]

Or perhaps they do, but there is a risk that the information would not be received by onboard or barrier staff before you encountered them, potentially only 5 minutes later?

For obvious reasons, all such information must be provided in real time.

 

[Moonshot]

Post #240 of this very thread!

ok got it thanks

 

[Moonshot]

Or perhaps they do, but there is a risk that the information would not be received by onboard or barrier staff before you encountered them, potentially only 5 minutes later?

Yes we do ..... there is a facility to monitor machine remotely and indeed onbaord staff get notified via our mobiles. But we might not notice for a while anyway as we are too busy doing other things. But in general , anyone who gets onboard from a station where the TVM has faulted out just gets sold a ticket anyway....its never an issue. The other day I spotted someone who was putting a card in and the card got jammed.

 

[island]

A regular PERTIS also allows any method of payment.

No it doesn’t, it is coins only.

 

[Deerfold]

No it doesn’t, it is coins only.

I think they mean to pay the remainder.

 

[cactustwirly]

What happens if I want to buy a WY Day Ranger from an unstaffed station using a card? The PTP says that I have to pay using cash.

 

[Starmill]

If you have a card, you cannot get a Promise to Pay Notice. Well, you can, but only by lying.

 

[skyhigh]

Aren't we still at the point of issuing warnings that a Penalty Fare may be issued in future if you do this again (finger wags) rather than the stage of actually issuing Penalty Fares? I'm sure I read somewhere that December was going to be spent getting people used to it via a blanket policy of warnings (unless you're already on their database as having avoided a fare previously) with a true go live in January?

Assuming I've not got completely the wrong end of the stick I'm not sure we'll be hearing many complaints just yet.

Last I heard a couple of weeks ago, that was the plan. December is mainly aimed at education so I wouldn't be surprised to find that this is technically the 3-week launch/information period before the scheme starts properly. Don't hold me to that if you do get a Penalty Fare, however.

 

[Spartacus]

Yes, I'd be amazed if there wasn't a similar approach to how the barriers were brought in at Leeds and most other places, accepting any old ticket for a while, then only causing problems when the protocols were activated. I'm sure the complaints will start racking up once staff are told to start enforcing the letter of the law, only by then I think Northern will hope the publicity will have died down.

The big issue as I see it IS the letter of the law: it's too fuzzy, too much open to misinterpretation by those (most likely the contractors) who aren't aware of all the possible reasons you wouldn't be able to purchase your ticket despite having a card, let alone be familiar with them. Rovers, seasons, Privs, boundary, split, off network through tickets to heritage lines, I'm sure they'll all have been mentioned: it can be difficult enough getting them from normal sources sometimes. I can fully imagine people being told by contractors they have to buy a week's season to Newcastle ("Where are you going?") with cash ("It says 'CASH ONLY'") instead of a Freedom of the North-East for example! That might be at the extreme end of the scale, true, but as many people on here will be aware they are notoriously inflexible, like trying to negotiate with a pair of rhinos usually!

Just reading it again and the wording seems to suggest that you'd be able to choose not to pay the member of staff on the train and instead pay at your destination! Being slightly pedantic but is even the 'owe' bit really correct if the bearer wishes to buy a rover or season of some description: you can't owe for travel you have yet to undertake for which you've not yet purchased a ticket can you? There's just too much that's not clear about it all, and F in plain English!

Rather than state 'by cash only', I suspect 'on demand' (with the usual Electron exception) would be more suitable.

 

[Bantamzen]

What happens if I want to buy a WY Day Ranger from an unstaffed station using a card? The PTP says that I have to pay using cash.

Well as the guards on the lines concerned still carry card readers, I guess they are still allowed to take card payments. So therefore those said ranger, priv and season tickets can still be bought on board. The PTP will simply prove that a passenger has boarded a station in the area that a ranger or season is applicable in and not been fare dodging from somewhere else.

Here's a bit of out of the box thinking though. Has anyone worried about it actually asked Northern about it? Just a thought like....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they mean to pay the remainder.

Indeed, that's what I meant.

 

[Deerfold]

Well as the guards on the lines concerned still carry card readers, I guess they are still allowed to take card payments. So therefore those said ranger, priv and season tickets can still be bought on board. The PTP will simply prove that a passenger has boarded a station in the area that a ranger or season is applicable in and not been fare dodging from somewhere else.

Here's a bit of out of the box thinking though. Has anyone worried about it actually asked Northern about it? Just a thought like....

I've asked Northern several questions about the scheme on Facebook and Twitter and been completely ignored.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've asked Northern several questions about the scheme on Facebook and Twitter and been completely ignored.

To be honest social media teams aren't the best to ask anything other than basic questions. I was thinking more along the lines of raising a question to Northern directly.

 

[Starmill]

How? I spoke to the customer experience center a few days ago to ask them why they hadn't responded to my email. They said that their current turnaround time for letters and emails is 9 weeks.

 

[Deerfold]

To be honest social media teams aren't the best to ask anything other than basic questions. I was thinking more along the lines of raising a question to Northern directly.

Perhaps they could at least have directed me to the best person to ask.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Regarding the notices, perhaps they have to be on the ramps as the rest of the station is shared with the access to the K&WVR, hence not a PF area?

4 Displaying warning notices


4.1 An operator who wants to charge penalty fares must make

sure that warning notices are displayed at every penalty fares

station. These warning notices must be in line with rule 4.3,

and must be displayed so that at least one notice can be clearly

seen by any passenger joining any penalty fares train or

changing onto a penalty fares train from any other train.

4.2 An operator who wants to charge penalty fares must make

sure that a warning notice is displayed at each entrance of each

compulsory ticket area. These warning notices must be in line

with rule 4.3.

4.3 Warning notices must:

i be noticeable, easy to read and easy to distinguish from

other notices and from the general surroundings;

ii explain clearly when a penalty fare may be charged;

iii give the amount or maximum amount of any penalty fare;

iv meet any requirement contained in the operator’s

approved penalty fares scheme; and

v follow a code of practice approved by the SRA for the

purposes of this rule.

SRA Penalty fares Rules 2002

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Having just boarded a train at Keighley I can confirm:

There are no notices as you enter the station via either of the 2 ramps.
There are no notices inside or outside the ticket office.
There is no notice as you enter via the side gate from the college.

There are only 2 small notices I could see - each only about A3 size, or perhaps very slightly bigger. One was stuck to a window half way down the ramp to platform 1 and isn't immediately obvious. The other is on the wall at the bottom of the ramp onto platform 2.

As the Penalty Fare scheme rules, from memory, state you can only be issued a PF if the notices are on clear display at every entrance to the compulsory ticket area - which they are not - then anyone boarding at Keighley couldn't be issued a PF.

Furthermore the station only has one TVM which is inside the booking hall which is locked when the office is closed.

4 Displaying warning notices

4.1 An operator who wants to charge penalty fares must make

sure that warning notices are displayed at every penalty fares

station. These warning notices must be in line with rule 4.3,

and must be displayed so that at least one notice can be clearly

seen by any passenger joining any penalty fares train or

changing onto a penalty fares train from any other train.

4.2 An operator who wants to charge penalty fares must make

sure that a warning notice is displayed at each entrance of each

compulsory ticket area. These warning notices must be in line

with rule 4.3.

4.3 Warning notices must:

i be noticeable, easy to read and easy to distinguish from

other notices and from the general surroundings;

ii explain clearly when a penalty fare may be charged;

iii give the amount or maximum amount of any penalty fare;

iv meet any requirement contained in the operator’s

approved penalty fares scheme; and

v follow a code of practice approved by the SRA for the

purposes of this rule.

SRA Penalty Fares Rules 2002

Would you say that the signs meet the above requirements, to a reasonable person who is not looking specifically for the signs?

 

[Deerfold]

SRA Penalty Fares Rules 2002

Would you say that the signs meet the above requirements, to a reasonable person who is not looking specifically for the signs?

I certainly wouldn't. I only saw the one on the Northbound platform at Keighley because I was looking for them.