ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Northhighland]

Anyone know when the first refurbished HST set is due for delivery to Scotrail? When does work start on these?

 

[jingsmonty]

No is the answer there. The hourly PTH INV will just about be manageable but how good it will be in times of disruption I dunno.

The best way of managing this is ensuring the Regional semi stoppers that are planned to enter service infact do so and ensure those for intermediate stations are directed to these so the HST provides a truly intercity service.

Getting lots of this sort of thing right is not something Scotrail have been very good at in the past although they have tried but I am hopeful that it will all work and demand will be managed.

Would definetly agree that 'No' is the answer as well - we regularly lose time waiting in passing loops as it is (17.30 Inv - Glasgow QS and 18.59/19.21 from Perth heading North spring to mind). Infrastructure improvements would be needed (more/longer loops, resignalling and some redoubling, where practical) before any real timetable adjustments can be made.

The far superior acceleration of HSTs may help, but, given they have lower maximum speeds that 158s/170s in a good few locations on HML, this seems like a stretch - I can forsee a fast HST sitting waiting for a crossing with a late-running train heading in the opposite direction.

 

[Clansman]

Anyone know when the first refurbished HST set is due for delivery to Scotrail? When does work start on these?

Work has already started on them. First refurbished set due up here in February.

 

[snakeeyes]

Does anyone have any pictures of the sets being refurbished at Doncaster?

 

[Northhighland]

Work has already started on them. First refurbished set due up here in February.

Thanks, I assume that the first one will take longer to do, after that what is the expected delivery rate?

 

[Northhighland]

Would definetly agree that 'No' is the answer as well - we regularly lose time waiting in passing loops as it is (17.30 Inv - Glasgow QS and 18.59/19.21 from Perth heading North spring to mind). Infrastructure improvements would be needed (more/longer loops, resignalling and some redoubling, where practical) before any real timetable adjustments can be made.

The far superior acceleration of HSTs may help, but, given they have lower maximum speeds that 158s/170s in a good few locations on HML, this seems like a stretch - I can forsee a fast HST sitting waiting for a crossing with a late-running train heading in the opposite direction.

Thought that the extra passing loops were in the plan then removed after the announcement of the HST's as they wouldn't be needed or am i imagining that? An hourly service to Inverness would be great, it would attract more passengers for sure. Especially with the HST's as well.

Realistically what is the restriction on HST length, I take it 6 car units would be no problem at Queen street or Waverley? Cant see anything longer ever being needed.

 

[47271]

Thought that the extra passing loops were in the plan then removed after the announcement of the HST's as they wouldn't be needed or am i imagining that? An hourly service to Inverness would be great, it would attract more passengers for sure. Especially with the HST's as well.

Realistically what is the restriction on HST length, I take it 6 car units would be no problem at Queen street or Waverley? Cant see anything longer ever being needed.

As I understand it the only immediate infrastructure improvements planned are to signalling to allow increased speed of approach at Pitlochry and Aviemore.

The HML service will go to hourly or very close to it. The expansion will be afforded by HST performance, slicker crosses at Pitlochry and Aviemore, and a proportion of trains only making the Pitlochry and Aviemore calls, but not additional crossing loops.

Whether this all works or not in practice is another thing entirely of course...

I believe that, with the exception of Newtonmore and the up platform at Dalwhinnie, all stations that will be served by the HSTs can accommodate six coaches.

There's a separate thread on the HST Highland Main Line timetable, dormant for the past few weeks, you may find this helpful:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=152370

 

[Clansman]

Does anyone have any pictures of the sets being refurbished at Doncaster?

There's one or two knocking about but there's nothing to see. Just holo shells of each carriage after being fully gutted and cut to fit the new doors going in.

If you go back a couple of pages you'll see one or two photos of the new door assembly.

Thanks, I assume that the first one will take longer to do, after that what is the expected delivery rate?

The pace of each set rolling out into service is dependent on numerous factors such as training etc. The delivery rate is planned to be around one each month until 2019, but said factors could have a significant influence on what will actually happen. Time will tell really.

 

[jingsmonty]

As I understand it the only immediate infrastructure improvements planned are to signalling to allow increased speed of approach at Pitlochry and Aviemore.

The HML service will go to hourly or very close to it. The expansion will be afforded by HST performance, slicker crosses at Pitlochry and Aviemore, and a proportion of trains only making the Pitlochry and Aviemore calls, but not additional crossing loops.

Whether this all works or not in practice is another thing entirely of course...

I believe that, with the exception of Newtonmore and the up platform at Dalwhinnie, all stations that will be served by the HSTs can accommodate six coaches.

There's a separate thread on the HST Highland Main Line timetable, dormant for the past few weeks, you may find this helpful:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=152370

Cheers for the thread on the HML timetable - didn't know that thread was there... that's spot on about the platforms on HML (now the up loop platform at Kingussie has been completed).

 

[Northhighland]

The refurb of the HST's are the power cars being refurbed as well? I assume the stories about reliability are likely to be unfounded, they as far as I can see have been very reliable in service until now, so with the correct maintenance regime should stay that way?

 

[43096]

The refurb of the HST's are the power cars being refurbed as well? I assume the stories about reliability are likely to be unfounded, they as far as I can see have been very reliable in service until now, so with the correct maintenance regime should stay that way?

Power car work is limited. Basically corrosion repairs, repaint/relivery and traction/brake interlock mods to work with the modified stock. It was proposed that the power cars would receive the electronics upgrade that every other HST TOC except GWR has done, but understand that may not now be the case.

 

[Spirit555]

Two sets have cone off lease with FGW. one set has supposedly already gone to Doncaster. Don't know which one and the other I due to go to Ely/Loughborough(PC Only) layer today.

Sets involved are:

LA03 43033 41038 42055 42562 42343 42292 42004 44079 42102 43148
LA04 43036 41052 40205 42077 42564 42076 42078 40221 42056 44018 43134

If anyone can shed any light on which has gone to Doncaster it would be much appreciated.

Many thanks in advance

Mark

 

[Clansman]

It will be LA03 as 43033 and 43148 were handed over to Brush Loughborough on Friday.

 

[43096]

It will be LA03 as 43033 and 43184 were handed over to Brush Loughborough on Friday.

You mean 43148.

LA03 was delivered to Doncaster yesterday by 43033/148 with the power cars going on to Loughborough.

 

[Clansman]

You mean 43148.

LA03 was delivered to Doncaster yesterday by 43033/148 with the power cars going on to Loughborough.

Didn't notice that typo. Thanks

 

[Chris125]

RAIL: Analysis - How the HSTs are being transformed for Scottish services

The first fully refurbished set arrives in February, and will move to Craigentinny. It will undergo routine planned maintenance before driver training starts, at which point the set now in Scotland will move to Inverness for the start of Phase 2. This is also the stage when on-board staff start training on the HSTs.

Tait says that at the start of the May 2018 timetable, four refurbished HSTs will be available. All will be four-coach sets, and he explains that the plan was always to boost capacity on the East Coast route. They are being aimed at specific trains, although the timings initially will be the same as those for ‘170s’, and this will not change until the full fleet is available. Five-coach sets will also be used on this route.

More 170s too?

Tait adds that other routes will also benefit from an internal cascade of ‘170s’: “At one stage, we were keeping 21 of them. Then it was 34, and now it looks like closer to 40.” This means SR can run its trains using newer diesel multiple units and remove older trains such as the ‘156s’.

 

[InOban]

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...s-are-being-transformed-for-scottish-services

Is the link to the piece Chris125 is referring to. So EDB to Aberdeen first, Glasgow last, presumably by the time the Queen Street rebuild is done.

 

[Mordac]

RAIL: Analysis - How the HSTs are being transformed for Scottish services



More 170s too?

That’ll be the ones Southern was going to turn into 171s, but have seemingly changed their mind on.

 

[swaldman]

Waiting for a delayed train at Aberdeen this morning I spied a short, Scotrail-coloured HST set in the adjacent Claymills depot. Very poor blurrycam pictures here (phone camera in the dark from a distance, sorry...): https://imgur.com/a/vMRiY

 

[snakeeyes]

This is it traveling north at Stonehaven the 6th October

 

[sprinterguy]

Waiting for a delayed train at Aberdeen this morning I spied a short, Scotrail-coloured HST set in the adjacent Claymills depot. Very poor blurrycam pictures here (phone camera in the dark from a distance, sorry...): https://imgur.com/a/vMRiY

Yeah, that's the set that's being used for driver training, using a scratch rake of redundant vehicles removed from the first FGW set to go into works for Scotrail. It retains FGW base livery with a few stickers, not the Scotrail livery that the refurbished sets will carry.

 

[swaldman]

Yeah, that's the set that's being used for driver training, using a scratch rake of redundant vehicles removed from the first FGW set to go into works for Scotrail.

That would explain the door handles!

 

[D365]

I haven't followed this discussion for a while, but I've got a question following on from this in the Class 800 thread:

Still issues now with the GEC motors, but Landore know them well and generally keep them running well. Be interesting to see how ScotRail cope, as all the GEC fitted power cars go north of the border.

It's ironic then that Brush Loughborough are doing up those power cars

I'm not sure about the split of Brush and GEC motored locos; how comes ScotRail are receiving the latter if they are supposed to be inferior?

 

[ScottDarg]

HST Set reportedly heading up to Haymarket today. Reported as Power cars 43126/43037.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O48651/2017/12/02/advanced

 

[43096]

I'm not sure about the split of Brush and GEC motored locos; how comes ScotRail are receiving the latter if they are supposed to be inferior?

They would have had to have some anyway as there are not enough available with Brush motors to resource the whole fleet. From the ROSCO's perspective getting something non-standard on lease is a good idea. It means they have Brush motored examples they can offer to other operators - who if they already have HSTs will have Brush motors.

 

[cf111]

As I understand it the only immediate infrastructure improvements planned are to signalling to allow increased speed of approach at Pitlochry and Aviemore.

Has this been done by any chance? I'm only asking as my 170 seemed to scream into Aviemore from the north last week and I almost thought we were going to miss the stop before the brakes kicked in.

 

[squizzler]

<snip>...All HST power cars have the same basic design of alternator. I presume you are referring to the fact that 43124-152 have GEC traction motors (rather than Brush motors fitted to the rest of the fleet).

On another thread it was claimed that the GEC traction motors are less reliable than Brush. In view of some BR era EMU's having gained AC traction motors in recent refurbishment, why is this not done for the HSTs? Could the benefits of AC drive be greater in this application? Higher speeds of HST mean the lighter motors will cause less track damage. OTOH, regenerative braking is not relevant when there is no OLE or third rail to return the juice.

 

[jingsmonty]

Think you'll find this is just individual driving style - wasn't me, by the way!

With regard to the approach speed into Aviemore - apologies, forgot to quote the relevant post...

 

[jingsmonty]

Has this been done by any chance? I'm only asking as my 170 seemed to scream into Aviemore from the north last week and I almost thought we were going to miss the stop before the brakes kicked in.

On another thread it was claimed that the GEC traction motors are less reliable than Brush. In view of some BR era EMU's having gained AC traction motors in recent refurbishment, why is this not done for the HSTs? Could the benefits of AC drive be greater in this application? Higher speeds of HST mean the lighter motors will cause less track damage. OTOH, regenerative braking is not relevant when there is no OLE or third rail to return the juice.

One word answer - Cost!! I'm also concerned that HSTs don't have sanders fitted & I've heard conflicting rumours as to whether this will happen with the Scotrail ones...

 

[43096]

One word answer - Cost!! I'm also concerned that HSTs don't have sanders fitted & I've heard conflicting rumours as to whether this will happen with the Scotrail ones...

ScotRail power cars have had their "overhaul" spec cut back, as they are not now to get the electronics upgrade (including WSP) that every other HST operator has done. Chances of sanding kit being added are somewhere around 0%, I would suggest.