ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Northhighland]

It's very easy to come out with statements which have a very, very loose connection to reality. Transport Scotland did not order the HSTs. It put in the ScotRail ITT that it wanted high-quality InterCity stock, and the various bidders each came up with their own solution. Abellio won, and their HST strategy became reality. Transport Scotland (and hence, the Scottish Government and SNP politicians) had basically no decisions to make about it. They fund the ScotRail franchise, but they aren't paying item-by-item. When National Express were cheaper and were planning new stock, you can't say that the decision to use HSTs was forced by the need to be as cheap as possible either.

If SG didn’t want 40 year old trains they could have specified that trains must not be older than x years. They could specify whatever they wanted. He who pays gets what they ask for. So not a loose connection but simple procurement fact.

 

[Clansman]

Worth remembering that newer doesn't mean better, for those who are still bashing on about the "40-year-old" rhetoric. One of the main aspects that's old about the ScotRail HSTs is the shell, and what difference does this make to passenger experience compared to newer stock? Virtually nil.

 

[Carntyne]

Do so every time. Call me old fashioned but I will not sit and watch someone less able stand very uncomfortably for over an hour.

However no-one should be standing. Not allowed on a Glasgow to Perth bus so why should it be allowed on a train?

Why should standing be banned on trains? It's not unsafe. Way to reduce the capacity of the rail network.

 

[47271]

However no-one should be standing. Not allowed on a Glasgow to Perth bus so why should it be allowed on a train?

The Glasgow to Perth bus will leave you standing at the side of the road.

So you're saying that the railway should provide unlimited seating on every service on the off chance that it might be used at some point and so that noone ever has to stand?

I completely agree that the stock presently used on Scotrail intercity routes offers inadequate seating capacity. Everyone agrees with that, so it's getting sorted out. But the reality is that people have to stand on trains sometimes: it could be extremely busy, or through overcrowding caused by disruption.

The HSTs will provide more services and more capacity within each service. One of the main existing causes of overcrowding, the use of Aberdeen and Inverness trains for commuting to and from locations like Larbert, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane, will be eliminated. You might not like it that the trains are 40 years old, it doesn't bother me at all, but realistically what more would you want them to do?

 

[Altnabreac]

The Glasgow to Perth bus will leave you standing at the side of the road.

So you're saying that the railway should provide unlimited seating on every service on the off chance that it might be used at some point and so that noone ever has to stand?

I completely agree that the stock presently used on Scotrail intercity routes offers inadequate seating capacity. Everyone agrees with that, so it's getting sorted out. But the reality is that people have to stand on trains sometimes: it could be extremely busy, or through overcrowding caused by disruption.

The HSTs will provide more services and more capacity within each service. One of the main existing causes of overcrowding, the use of Aberdeen and Inverness trains for commuting to and from locations like Larbert, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane, will be eliminated. You might not like it that the trains are 40 years old, it doesn't bother me at all, but realistically what more would you want them to do?

You are correct to point this out. The new Glasgow - Dundee semi fasts will probably do more to reduce overcrowding than the HST introduction will.

 

[Marklund]

but realistically what more would you want them to do?

Have addressed the short formed trains years ago?
Stopped the stops before Perth years ago?

It's not as if this is a recent problem.

 

[Clansman]

Have addressed the short formed trains years ago?

One half-arsed solution to this was using standard only Class 170s to provide an additional 10 seats per train - not that this makes much of a difference.

Must break first class passenger's hearts when an ex SPT unit turns up on an Invernesser when there's a nice shiny unit with first class fresh out the works turning up on the adjacent platform at Glasgow Queen Street bound for Alloa.

 

[Marklund]

One half-arsed solution to this was using standard only Class 170s to provide an additional 10 seats per train - not that this makes much of a difference.

Must break first class passenger's hearts when an ex SPT unit turns up on an Invernesser when there's a nice shiny unit with first class fresh out the works turning up on the adjacent platform at Glasgow Queen Street bound for Alloa.

Yes!
To be honest, I never bother with first when I'm back up in Scotland, not for that reason, I just don't think it's worth it, but if you've shelled out, it must be a bit annoying.

Will they still have a mixed fleet of suburban/First units after the 170s are relegated by the HSTs?

 

[Clansman]

Will they still have a mixed fleet of suburban/First units after the 170s are relegated by the HSTs?

As far as I'm aware, they are retaining...

393 - 396
401 - 415
425 - 434
470 - 471
450 - 452

A strange pool of units to keep - especially the ex-Hull sets.

 

[Marklund]

As far as I'm aware, they are retaining...

393-396
401 - 415
470 - 471
425 - 434
450 - 452

Thanks.
But the nub is will they take first seats from the departing units and put them in the suburban ones to keep a consistent fleet, or make them all suburban?

 

[cj_1985]

what i'm wondering, is why ScotRail aren't just keeping the newer 170s, and off load the older units to Northern

 

[gsnedders]

If SG didn’t want 40 year old trains they could have specified that trains must not be older than x years. They could specify whatever they wanted. He who pays gets what they ask for. So not a loose connection but simple procurement fact.

And notably, the TS ITT pretty explicitly disqualified Voyagers: it's not like they didn't consider what stock they'd be happy with.

 

[47271]

Have addressed the short formed trains years ago?
Stopped the stops before Perth years ago?

It's not as if this is a recent problem.

I was referring to the future rather than the past!

 

[route:oxford]

The use of Aberdeen and Inverness trains for commuting to and from locations like Larbert, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane, will be eliminated. You might not like it that the trains are 40 years old, it doesn't bother me at all, but realistically what more would you want them to do?

I very much doubt it.

Passengers for Dunblane and BofA will continue to grab the first fast to Stirling and change to either the Glasgow orginated service that leaves later or an Edinburgh originated service.

They know all too well that the first sign of trouble the Glasgow-Dunblane services are terminated at Stirling anyway. Many regular BofA and DBL travellers will recall the sit-in protest one evening that forced Scotrail to run a Stirling "terminated" service to Dunblane. Threats were made to call BTP, but as it would take at least an hour to get them up from Glasgow or Edinburgh - common sense prevailed.

There is also the issue with Dunblane and Bridge of Allan customers being cash-cows for Scotrail. They pack peak services in the morning and evening. The last thing Scotrail will want is for them to start driving the 20 minutes to Cumbernauld, parking for free and paying half the price for the season ticket.

 

[Bill EWS]

Caught the 0752 to Kings Cross at Aberdeen yesterday morning and one of the refurbished HST sets was standing in the old Ballater bay platform and running. It must have been doing a trial run anytime from then. I am pleased that HST sets are being used on the Aberdeen-Inverness services, as well and the Perth-Inverness services. They are going to make a fantastic difference to these journies. It's a pity that they aren't going to be used on the Wick-Thurso route.

 

[ainsworth74]

Caught the 0752 to Kings Cross at Aberdeen yesterday morning and one of the refurbished HST sets was standing in the old Ballater bay platform and running.

I believe that that set is not refurbished but is being used for crew training purposes.

 

[43096]

As far as I'm aware, they are retaining...

393 - 396
401 - 415
425 - 434
470 - 471
450 - 452

A strange pool of units to keep - especially the ex-Hull sets.

They had no choice on the second batch of retained units as Northern will have had sets identified when they signed the lease.

 

[brad465]

Apologies if this has been mentioned earlier in the now "very long" thread, but I wanted to quickly ask would the Scotrail HSTs ever be able to achieve speeds in their 100-125mph capability?
If I'm right there are no line speeds above 100mph north of the central belt, so the only they could would be through line speed upgrades, but the nature of both the Highland and the Edinburgh-Aberdeen lines would I suspect not make such upgrades possible :roll:

 

[mcmad]

There are a couple of 125mph stretches but Scotrail safety case is currently based on nothing above 100mph so the HST's won't breach that (officially).

 

[47271]

I very much doubt it.

Passengers for Dunblane and BofA will continue to grab the first fast to Stirling and change to either the Glasgow orginated service that leaves later or an Edinburgh originated service.

They know all too well that the first sign of trouble the Glasgow-Dunblane services are terminated at Stirling anyway. Many regular BofA and DBL travellers will recall the sit-in protest one evening that forced Scotrail to run a Stirling "terminated" service to Dunblane. Threats were made to call BTP, but as it would take at least an hour to get them up from Glasgow or Edinburgh - common sense prevailed.

There is also the issue with Dunblane and Bridge of Allan customers being cash-cows for Scotrail. They pack peak services in the morning and evening. The last thing Scotrail will want is for them to start driving the 20 minutes to Cumbernauld, parking for free and paying half the price for the season ticket.

I'm not an expert on commuting to those places, but if a Glasgow-Inverness train doesn't stop at Bridge of Allan then it can't be used to travel directly from Glasgow to Bridge of Allan.

Equally, if I lived in Dunblane in 2020 I think that I'd rather nip on a 385 for a quick direct journey home than risk standing up in the doorway of an unsuitable mk3 coach and then fiddle around changing at Stirling.

Neither of us know how it'll pan out. We shall see.

 

[Northhighland]

The Glasgow to Perth bus will leave you standing at the side of the road.

So you're saying that the railway should provide unlimited seating on every service on the off chance that it might be used at some point and so that noone ever has to stand?

I completely agree that the stock presently used on Scotrail intercity routes offers inadequate seating capacity. Everyone agrees with that, so it's getting sorted out. But the reality is that people have to stand on trains sometimes: it could be extremely busy, or through overcrowding caused by disruption.

The HSTs will provide more services and more capacity within each service. One of the main existing causes of overcrowding, the use of Aberdeen and Inverness trains for commuting to and from locations like Larbert, Bridge of Allan and Dunblane, will be eliminated. You might not like it that the trains are 40 years old, it doesn't bother me at all, but realistically what more would you want them to do?

that train first stop is Perth. Negates much of your post. No problem with 40 year old HST trains, as I have previously said they are excellent passenger trains and will be a huge improvement. If that train had had to stop in an emergency people would be injured. I paid £67 for my ticket, I don't think for that price a seat is unreasonable. City link for same day £44. With seat.

 

[Darandio]

that train first stop is Perth. Negates much of your post. No problem with 40 year old HST trains, as I have previously said they are excellent passenger trains and will be a huge improvement. If that train had had to stop in an emergency people would be injured. I paid £67 for my ticket, I don't think for that price a seat is unreasonable. City link for same day £44. With seat.

Then use City Link. Thousands of people stand on trains all over the country, some have to do it daily and often for a long period of time. Your situation is in no way unique.

 

[NotATrainspott]

IIRC there was an accident decades ago in London where it was found that the crush loading actually prevented injuries. In an empty train you have plenty of space for a large velocity differential to build up in an accident, meaning you impact the hard surfaces of the interior. If it's crush loaded, you're just going to spring against all of the other people inside.

The regular Dundee semi-fast will reduce the load on that train. If it is still capable of causing a 2+5 HST to be crush-loaded after that, then it'll be fairly easy to add in another standard class carriage. The ScotRail HSTs have already been fiddled with, as we're now getting one fewer usable sets, with the power cars available as spares and the carriages used to extend a few 2+4 sets to 2+5. If need be, you could very easily take out a standard carriage from one of the 2+5 sets and put it in another 2+5 to make a 2+6 and then use it on specific diagrams.

 

[47271]

that train first stop is Perth. Negates much of your post. No problem with 40 year old HST trains, as I have previously said they are excellent passenger trains and will be a huge improvement. If that train had had to stop in an emergency people would be injured. I paid £67 for my ticket, I don't think for that price a seat is unreasonable. City link for same day £44. With seat.

Okay, so let's look at one service and one service only, and one that is most unusual in that it runs non stop from Glasgow to Perth, although I think we all know that it's more than one Scotrail intercity train that has people standing on it on a daily basis.

Are you saying that the railway should provide unlimited capacity on the 1641 Queen Street-Aberdeen so that anyone who ever rocks up at some point in the future is guaranteed a seat? Or are you saying that we should run a train like an express coach, with no standing allowed, which means that if you haven't reserved or capacity is reached then you'll get left behind?

I'd be interested to read how you'd plan to arrange the first of those two approaches. The second is certainly possible, maybe it should be looked at as serious option for Scotrail's HST services? I don't think you'll get much support for it in this thread, but discuss!

 

[Northhighland]

Okay, so let's look at one service and one service only, and one that is most unusual in that it runs non stop from Glasgow to Perth, although I think we all know that it's more than one Scotrail intercity train that has people standing on it on a daily basis.

Are you saying that the railway should provide unlimited capacity on the 1641 Queen Street-Aberdeen so that anyone who ever rocks up at some point in the future is guaranteed a seat? Or are you saying that we should run a train like an express coach, with no standing allowed, which means that if you haven't reserved or capacity is reached then you'll get left behind?

I'd be interested to read how you'd plan to arrange the first of those two approaches. The second is certainly possible, maybe it should be looked at as serious option for Scotrail's HST services? I don't think you'll get much support for it in this thread, but discuss!

Capacity planning on the trains to Inverness and Aberdeen has been an issue for last 7 or more years. By now it might be reasonable to see a fix. It isn’t just the 16:41 either, came up from Edinburgh last week arriving in Inverness just after 5. That train had people standing to Pitlochry. Standing to Perth is a regular occurrence.

The solution here is better planning. We need hourly service to Inverness, less sharing already busy trains to Aberdeen. I am no expert on rail safety, but from a passenger perspective this is appalling customer service.

 

[jopsuk]

ignoring having stock to do it, can the Highland Mainline take an hourly Glasgow-Inverness and a two-hourly Edinburgh-Inverness and still have space for some freight?

 

[ld0595]

ignoring having stock to do it, can the Highland Mainline take an hourly Glasgow-Inverness and a two-hourly Edinburgh-Inverness and still have space for some freight?

I thought the plan was hourly from Perth, so two hourly from both Glasgow and Edinburgh. Though I don't know the line well enough to know if there will be space for freight with this.

 

[Blindtraveler]

No is the answer there. The hourly PTH INV will just about be manageable but how good it will be in times of disruption I dunno.

The best way of managing this is ensuring the Regional semi stoppers that are planned to enter service infact do so and ensure those for intermediate stations are directed to these so the HST provides a truly intercity service.

Getting lots of this sort of thing right is not something Scotrail have been very good at in the past although they have tried but I am hopeful that it will all work and demand will be managed.

 

[najaB]

Though I don't know the line well enough to know if there will be space for freight with this.

There is. IIRC there are two daytime paths in each direction.

No is the answer there. The hourly PTH INV will just about be manageable but how good it will be in times of disruption I dunno.

Any single line is going to be vulnerable to disruption, there's not really any realistic way around it. That said, a couple of new loops might not go amiss.

 

[47271]

I think we're going round in circles a bit here.

- everyone agrees that Scotrail intercity capacity is woefully inadequate at present.

- the primary cause is not enough trains, and that the trains that they have aren't up to the job. Scotrail doesn't have enough diesel units full stop.

- a secondary cause is the use of long distance services for short distance commuting (eg Glasgow-Bridge of Allan).

- the situation has its origins in decisions taken 20 years ago.

- the introduction of the HSTs will provide more trains with more capacity, and those trains will be properly set up to provide those long distance services.

- furthermore, those trains will no longer serve minor stations south of Perth, largely eliminating commuter use.

- the Highland Main Line in its present form may well struggle to accomodate the increased number of services to Inverness.

Until the new services start running to a full timetable it's going to be very difficult to predict exactly where the pinch points may come.

I don't see much point in complaining any more about services as they are now, noone denies that they're inadequate, but they're about to change.